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Old 11-12-2012, 01:56 PM   #76
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I find that the hidden votes give the best results. So we should do it for all 12 months. I feel the book that wins is the book that deserves to win. It's not based on parrotism or who voted for what or how many votes a book has. It works and it's fair. We have people who have admitted to saying they don't vote for what they want because they prefer to be a lemming.
So we need not have a poll to decide this question since you have thought it over, decided what is best, and have now communicated to the rest of us your decision? Or should the ignorant masses be allowed to vote on the issue?
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:23 PM   #77
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you are the one who said that my use of "best" and "fair" are loaded words. So I feel it is up to you to prove your point/disprove mine. "Lemming" is not a loaded word. We have already had people say that they vote based on the votes of others. That would be a lemming vote. The idea is to vote for what a person most wants to read. With a hidden vote, there is no voting based on the current vote tally and there is little to no voting based on what someone else voted for. Sure other things still apply like price and availability as well as wanting to read. But that's a lot more fair then voting based on the votes of others.
OK, let me get this straight. You said:

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Given that we have enough proof, we can see that hidden voting is the best and fairest way to do it.
So I said, where/what is the proof? And you say it's up to me to disprove your contention, ie, I have to prove there's no proof? That's ridiculous. I'm not saying there's proof of the opposite, just that I have my reasons for preferring an open vote, which would include not throwing away a vote on a non-contender and because I think an open vote creates interest.

My asking for statistical analysis was a bit tongue in cheek, as the sample size and variable factors don't lend themselves to rigorous analysis, but you've got to come up with something to support your contention of "proof." Otherwise, not only am I free to disregard your claim, I can't be blamed for suspecting the opposite. If you had proof, surely you'd provide it.

Lemming is loaded because of the connotation of mindlessness. If someone chooses to vote with or against someone (and I suspect there's little if any of that), it would be because they've noted that their tastes seem either congruent or the opposite of the voter in question.

For all your natterings about fairness and proof, I suspect it boils down to your thinking your own nominations have more of a chance with a closed vote; that a closed vote results in a flatter vote (unproved, note) and that you might be able to sneak one past the goalpost.

Last edited by issybird; 11-12-2012 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Nyssa View Post
Seven seems to be a good number, IMO.

I don't think 10 would be too many, but I don't see us getting there. There are 2 days left in this nomination process and other than "arguing" specifics, it looks like those who are interested in participating have done so.

However, Maybe you could lift the number requirement, leave the nominations open for the full week, and see what we come up with in the end... That should give a better idea as to where to aim next time.
Now there's an idea.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:36 PM   #79
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I've come up with the fact that the hidden votes are a lot more evenly distributed then the open votes. In the open votes, we've had more books get no votes then with the hidden votes. We've had less votes distributed over all the books. The last vote was hidden and when it was revealed, we had one at the top and 4 (or 5) tied for second place. I don't think that would have happened with an open vote. We have less of a runaway with hidden votes then we do with open. Hidden gives us a more statistical validity to the votes.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:34 PM   #80
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I'm pretty sure you pick the "proof" that suits you.
I don't remeber which months that were hidden or open, but I do remember that one of the tightest first votes was an "open" month. Could it have been August?
Either way, it's not for you OR me to decide.
Personally I like that we go between the two. That way all can be happy at least part of the time. But that's just my opinion.

Edit: Checked and August sure was visible! http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=185641

Last edited by Asawi; 11-12-2012 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:10 PM   #81
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Hidden gives us a more statistical validity to the votes.
I don't think any of these votes, hidden or not, are statistically valid. And asserting that they are "more" valid because the votes are more spread out is meaningless.

The real test as to whether or not we should have open or closed voting is how satisfied people were with the results of the voting. Were we (as a group) more satisfied with the results we got when the polls were visible or when they were hidden? Even if the vote didn't go our way.

Personally, I decided to join the book club too late, so I haven't voted in any of the open ones and don't really know which gives the better results. I will let some of the people who have participated longer have the final say.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:33 PM   #82
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So we need not have a poll to decide this question since you have thought it over, decided what is best, and have now communicated to the rest of us your decision? Or should the ignorant masses be allowed to vote on the issue?
But why should we be allowed to vote? I mean we're just lemmings, so we should leave it to the people who are right and true to make these decisions on our behalf.

Aren't you feeling relieved already?
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:57 PM   #83
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I'm pretty sure you pick the "proof" that suits you.
I don't remeber which months that were hidden or open, but I do remember that one of the tightest first votes was an "open" month. Could it have been August?
Either way, it's not for you OR me to decide.
Personally I like that we go between the two. That way all can be happy at least part of the time. But that's just my opinion.

Edit: Checked and August sure was visible! http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=185641
And then we have an open vote in August 2011 where there are two books that got no votes at all. We have less books with no votes in hidden polls then open polls.

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=144749
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:35 PM   #84
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And then we have an open vote in August 2011 where there are two books that got no votes at all. We have less books with no votes in hidden polls then open polls.

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=144749
Maybe because no one wanted to read them more than other choices? I seem to recall in at least one month someone's urging that a book be thirded so that voting could begin, and not out of a desire to read it. Oh, that's right, that would have been you.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:38 PM   #85
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Maybe because no one wanted to read them more than other choices? I seem to recall in at least one month someone's urging that a book be thirded so that voting could begin, and not out of a desire to read it. Oh, that's right, that would have been you.
Yep, I did that. But, it was for a book I voted for.

As for the books in August 2011 that did not get any votes, I think it was because we saw the votes and some did not vote for those books because they felt their votes would have been wasted. But if the vote was hidden, that may very well not have happened.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:36 AM   #86
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Yep, I did that. But, it was for a book I voted for.

As for the books in August 2011 that did not get any votes, I think it was because we saw the votes and some did not vote for those books because they felt their votes would have been wasted. But if the vote was hidden, that may very well not have happened.
Books don't have feelings; they don't care. It's not like a kindergarten soccer league where everyone gets a medal.

Otherwise, not only are you speculating; it doesn't matter. People vote for what they want with the information they have. Who are you to impugn the nature of their vote, because of your personal value judgment? If you want to vote for an obvious loser, no one else cares or says it's somehow less valid. Your call. Please, please leave the value judgments out of this.

I, personally, like an open vote because I think it's more fun. It keeps people looking. Voting strategically may get them more involved. And it allows for a more economic choice where more people are reasonably happy with the outcome.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:03 AM   #87
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Also given that I quite often will nominate more than one book or second/third other books, it's possible - or some might say inevitable - that I won't vote for all of them.

There have even been times when I've nominated a book which ended up in the vote, but subsequently someone else has nominated a book that I felt was an even better choice. It happens and I certainly reserve my right to change my mind.

For example, in October I nominated The Last Werewolf by Glenn Duncan. However, when I read the description for Carmilla, I actually preferred to read that. So I didn't vote for my nomination but for Carmilla instead. You'll notice in October The Last Werewolf only got 1 vote and that was from someone who did not nominate, second or third that book.

Was that month a open voting month? No - actually it was a closed month and the voting was pretty lopsided towards Carmilla with two prospects only getting 1 vote each. Maybe in an open voting month they would both have got 0 votes each - in other words not much difference.

Picking out these "sample" months doesn't prove anything. The sample sizes are too small and the voting conducted on whim (we're not exactly electing a president).

If I fervently desire a particular book to be chosen, I will nominate it and I will vote for it and I will mention it - more than once. But I'm not always black and white about it. Sometimes there are multiple selections I'd equally like to read. Sometimes there are books I particularly don't wan't to read, and apparently sometimes I like to leap off a cliff to the music of "Charge of the Lemmings".
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:25 AM   #88
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The second for Thriller and the nomination of Books originally written in Non-English languages added, but it's purely academic, as your third of Science Fiction makes 7 fully nominated books and therefore the poll will open shortly.

For February, is 7 too few? Should it be 10 as with the books?

EDIT: Hold the presses! Science Fiction only has 2 nominations. Did you mean to third Sci-Fi and Fantasy?
Sorry, I can count only to 1 (with a calculator)...

I meant Science Fiction, not Fantasy...
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:32 AM   #89
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...
There have even been times when I've nominated a book which ended up in the vote, but subsequently someone else has nominated a book that I felt was an even better choice. It happens and I certainly reserve my right to change my mind.
...
I do it all the time. Usually I nominate the books I want you to read, and I vote for the books I'd like to read, or I'd like to share an opinion upon.

So, for me it's rather a rare situation to vote for the book I nominated (Carmilla was an exception, but during the discussion I were offline, so I did not comment it: sorry for that).

As for secrecy, I prefer hidden votes.

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Old 11-13-2012, 09:15 AM   #90
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Multiple choice voting would eliminate many of these arguments.

With multiple choice voting, one can vote for all the books one wants to read the most. So there'd be no worry about choosing between voting for one's absolute favourite or voting strategically.

It would also give people more choice and lead to more votes and larger percentages for each book, and can lead to more people participating.

I've seen support for it from various people in different threads, and I think it would solve many of this club's problems that create these arguments.


I would propose to have a vote on multiple choice vs single choice before a vote on open vs closed, since open vs closed is contentious no matter which wins, and many of those contention points can be solved by a multiple choice vs single choice vote. After that, an open vs closed vote could go smoother with less argument between those who favour open and those who favour closed.
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