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Old 11-09-2012, 04:05 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by sun surfer View Post
LOL, I guess you missed it; I just basically said the post before that knowing Hamlet53 wanted to combine Sci-Fi and Fantasy, it seems...extremely obvious that he meant that as one category. Of course I could be wrong and he could have his reasons for wanting them as one category and then nominating them as two separate categories, but until he makes it clear which he meant, knowing his previous feelings it's only logical to think he meant that as one category of "Sci-Fi and Fantasy".

So if that's the case, we should have "Sci-Fi and Fantasy" with one nom, "Sci-Fi" with one nom and fantasyfan's nom unclear as to if he wants to support Hamlet53's nom or nominate only "Fantasy" himself.
I was actually supporting Hamlet53'z nomination. I really tend to see fantasy and Science-fiction as sibling genre. In fact, I believe that there is such a category as science-fantasy--though the term isn't probably used all that much. I would regard Jack Vance's The Dying Earth as an example of science-fantasy.

So. If you wish to use my supportive vote for fantasy in combination with the support for science-fiction and thus combine them into a single category--which is what I gather to be the proposal under consideration--then I would be all for it.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:33 PM   #32
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Sorry for any confusion. I did indeed wish to nominate “fantasy & Sci-Fi” as a category as well as “classics.”

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Or is it supposed to be modern dramatic fiction; i.e. realistic plots, with no crazy sci-fi/fantasy or thrillers, etc.? Generally the category "modern fiction" I think would be taken in this way, being a way to describe newer books that don't fit into genre moulds, but I didn't want to assume. If I was sure it meant this I would've supported it.
I will use my final nomination in support of the above.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:04 PM   #33
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How are "Award Winners" and "Major Award Winners" different?
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:09 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Dazrin View Post
I guess it wasn't obvious to me that they were intended to be combined. He hadn't used any nominations to that point in the thread, so it looked like he was using 3 nominations "classics", "science fiction", and "fantasy". If the intent was "science fiction and fantasy" he needs to clarify that I think. Maybe WT Sharpe needs to put an instruction in the first post to have quotes around the category you are nominating to help avoid confusion like this?
I agree that if one didn't know or remember Hamlet53's previous posts in the discussion thread on the subject, it could seem like two separate categories, but knowing those posts his intentions seem very clear. That's why in my first post mentioning it I tried to discreetly point out the mistake Tom had made, so that it could be quickly corrected so as not to mess up future seconds/thirds and so on. But for all the results it produced, it seems as if perhaps I were only speaking to the wind...

Luckily Hamlet53 has now confirmed it.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:19 PM   #35
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How are "Award Winners" and "Major Award Winners" different?
The specifics of the awards allowed in the Award Winners category hasn't been clarified yet, and without clarification it would seem to mean any and all award winners, including the most obscure genre ones. The Major Award Winners category specifics has been clarified for the most part and only includes major non-genre awards.

Award Winners could end up being the same or very similar to Major Award Winners, but we don't know because it hasn't been decided yet (if ever...it may very well be left to us to decide what constitutes an "award winner" by our seconds and thirds during the month...in which case that would mean pretty much any award would be allowed).

I think, for these category noms and voting, it's fairer for everyone for the category to be clear beforehand, as Major Award Winners is, so they know what they're supporting. I don't think it'd be fair for someone to support Award Winners thinking it'd be basically major award winners, and then it turns out it will allow even the most obscure genre awards as well, and the nominations end up filled with them. Conversely, someone else may only support it if it did also allow obscure genre awards so it's only fair for them to know what the category is.

And there's a big difference between a Major Award Winners category and an Anything Goes Award Winners category.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sun surfer
Or is it supposed to be modern dramatic fiction; i.e. realistic plots, with no crazy sci-fi/fantasy or thrillers, etc.? Generally the category "modern fiction" I think would be taken in this way, being a way to describe newer books that don't fit into genre moulds, but I didn't want to assume. If I was sure it meant this I would've supported it.
I will use my final nomination in support of the above.
Would you support "Modern Fiction" if the above is not what it means? Just wanting to be clear, because Tom may very well take that as a third for the already nominated Modern Fiction category, and without parameters set for it and without the category being clarified beforehand, you may be supporting a contemporary genre freeforall instead, and not realise it til it's voted in. I would think Modern Fiction would mean what you quoted, but you never know, and if it's voted in and defined otherwise or never defined (the "leave it up to the nominators and seconds/thirds to decide what modern fiction is" method) then I think it easily could/would turn into a contemporary genre freeforall.

In fact, I think that going forward with these category nominations, Tom would do well to include some wording asking nominators to briefly describe the specifics of a new category they're nominating unless they're OK with the broadest possible definition of it. I.e. as it stands I think Modern Fiction means any fiction book in any genre as long as the book is not too too old, and Award Winners means any book that has gotten any kind of award at all.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:23 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dazrin View Post
...Regarding the voting process, after January is done we will have 1 selection and up to 6 categories that have been fully nominated. For the February nomination/voting, should we start the nominations by keeping the runner(s) up from January or even all the fully nominated categories from January except the selected one as fully nominated to start it off?

For example, assume "Runners Up", "Award Winners", "Classics" and "Science Fiction" are fully nominated for January and then "Runners Up" gets selected with "Award Winners" in second. We can start the February nomination period with either "Award Winners" fully nominated or with all 3 non-selected categories fully nominated since there is obviously interest in those categories. For those who want a repeat category, it could be re-nominated and voted on again during the nomination period.
I had envisioned starting each month fresh.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:29 PM   #37
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Sorry for any confusion. I did indeed wish to nominate “fantasy & Sci-Fi” as a category as well as “classics.” ....
I have removed Hamlet's "Fantasy" nomination, combined it with "Fantasy and Sci-Fi", and removed fantasyfan's vote.

fantasyfan, you can re-use that vote as you choose.

Last edited by WT Sharpe; 11-09-2012 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:34 PM   #38
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Sorry for any confusion. I did indeed wish to nominate “fantasy & Sci-Fi” as a category as well as “classics.”



I will use my final nomination in support of the above.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:42 PM   #39
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To get closer to the voting I

Third Modern Fiction
Second Major Award winners
Second Adventure/Travel
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:29 PM   #40
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I'll use my final vote to support Hamlet53's nomination of Science Fiction and Fantasy.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:58 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sun surfer View Post
The specifics of the awards allowed in the Award Winners category hasn't been clarified yet, and without clarification it would seem to mean any and all award winners, including the most obscure genre ones. The Major Award Winners category specifics has been clarified for the most part and only includes major non-genre awards.

Award Winners could end up being the same or very similar to Major Award Winners, but we don't know because it hasn't been decided yet (if ever...it may very well be left to us to decide what constitutes an "award winner" by our seconds and thirds during the month...in which case that would mean pretty much any award would be allowed).

I think, for these category noms and voting, it's fairer for everyone for the category to be clear beforehand, as Major Award Winners is, so they know what they're supporting. I don't think it'd be fair for someone to support Award Winners thinking it'd be basically major award winners, and then it turns out it will allow even the most obscure genre awards as well, and the nominations end up filled with them. Conversely, someone else may only support it if it did also allow obscure genre awards so it's only fair for them to know what the category is.

And there's a big difference between a Major Award Winners category and an Anything Goes Award Winners category.



Would you support "Modern Fiction" if the above is not what it means? Just wanting to be clear, because Tom may very well take that as a third for the already nominated Modern Fiction category, and without parameters set for it and without the category being clarified beforehand, you may be supporting a contemporary genre freeforall instead, and not realise it til it's voted in. I would think Modern Fiction would mean what you quoted, but you never know, and if it's voted in and defined otherwise or never defined (the "leave it up to the nominators and seconds/thirds to decide what modern fiction is" method) then I think it easily could/would turn into a contemporary genre freeforall.

In fact, I think that going forward with these category nominations, Tom would do well to include some wording asking nominators to briefly describe the specifics of a new category they're nominating unless they're OK with the broadest possible definition of it. I.e. as it stands I think Modern Fiction means any fiction book in any genre as long as the book is not too too old, and Award Winners means any book that has gotten any kind of award at all.
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My head is beginning to ache from this , I laud Tom for able being to cope. We are going to have to repeat all this monthly for the next 11 months ? I support “Modern Fiction” as a category. I would like that guidance attached to the category. It is my experience that well defined rules, like has to be an ebook and no repeats of books, are enforced, the standards of what constitutes a book in the “xxx” genre are extremely loose anyway.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:35 PM   #42
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I must have missed the conversation where "Sci-fi" and "Science Fiction" were different. That might be interesting to read since I imagine it being as polite as most political talk.
Yes. Quite.

There's a faction that believes the terms Science Fiction, Sci-Fi, SF, F&SF, and sometimes Speculative Fiction are all euphemisms for the same genre. There's another faction that insists they are at least 3, possibly 5, different categories, and that it's insulting to describe a book by the wrong one. There's another faction that believes it's one genre (or maybe two) but only one term (or two) is actually correct, and the other labels are derogatory.

I'm fine with anything as long as we don't call it Syfy.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:40 PM   #43
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We are going to have to repeat all this monthly for the next 11 months ?
I'd prefer that we start on the next discussions ASAP instead of waiting for "closer to that month." And preferably, that we discuss several months at once, instead of "what are we gonna nominate NEXT month," with no context of previous or potential future months to discuss.

I liked the genres being roughly attached to the months--February for romance, April for humor, October for horror. Doing a month-at-a-time selection has a chance of losing that, especially as people nominate their choice of genre every month that might not otherwise be selected.

I can see reasons to getting January's topic established quickly; I really hope we won't use this method exactly for each month. I'd also like to see a thread or multiple threads about defining the genres/categories.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:47 PM   #44
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I'd prefer that we start on the next discussions ASAP instead of waiting for "closer to that month." And preferably, that we discuss several months at once, instead of "what are we gonna nominate NEXT month," with no context of previous or potential future months to discuss.

I liked the genres being roughly attached to the months--February for romance, April for humor, October for horror. Doing a month-at-a-time selection has a chance of losing that, especially as people nominate their choice of genre every month that might not otherwise be selected.

I can see reasons to getting January's topic established quickly; I really hope we won't use this method exactly for each month. I'd also like to see a thread or multiple threads about defining the genres/categories.
Fear not; the plan is to run the nominations and votes back to back. As soon as January is decided, we'll start February, then March, etc.

We may have some fine tuning to do on certain categories (such as if "Award Winners" wins one month), but we can do that while we do the other.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:38 PM   #45
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Well that's very ambitious of you. I hope this all goes well.

In the meantime can I pre-program a nomination for Indie for every month until the end of the year or whenever it wins a vote, whichever comes first?
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