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Old 10-22-2012, 06:51 PM   #61
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Aren't we all guessing its a DRM issue? Maybe they keep buying products, use them a bit and then return them?
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Pushka View Post
Aren't we all guessing its a DRM issue? Maybe they keep buying products, use them a bit and then return them?
DRM is a major issue not because it caused the closure of the account, but because all purchasers' access to DRMd ebooks is at the mercy of the seller.

I believe the latest info that says Amazon didn't delete the books she currently has downloaded, since amazon promised never to do that after the 1984 debacle. they do reserve the right to remove content you have stored on the cloud, though.

But all of this is why it irks me when I see people poopooing our complaints about DRM, saying that only geeks like us make a fuss about it, and the usual customer isnt bothered by it.

It's like saying only health nuts are worried about cholesterol.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:09 PM   #63
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But all of this is why it irks me when I see people poopooing our complaints about DRM, saying that only geeks like us make a fuss about it, and the usual customer isnt bothered by it.
Until it happens to them one day and then they "get" the reasons why.

I'm just thinking though, at a guess, the majority of people having a kindle would not even think of backing their purchases to a hard drive. After all, it's always "in the cloud". So even if the purchases were not DRM'ed, and if an account was closed, there's no way of retrieving them anyway as most people don't backup to a local drive. Just us geeks do that!
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Piper_ View Post

I believe the latest info that says Amazon didn't delete the books she currently has downloaded, since amazon promised never to do that after the 1984 debacle. they do reserve the right to remove content you have stored on the cloud, though.
now I'm curious what the 1984 debacle was!
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:26 PM   #65
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It would be better to post the info.

Whenever I read one of these stories I always wait for the inevitable "well, I did X and that is why Amazon did Y." There always is a retraction by the aggreived party. Yes, the closing of an account and Amazon's unwillingess to be specific about the problem is annoying. Yes, I would like Amazon to do better.

In this case, it appears her Kindle was broken and she knew it was broken. Ooopps

Amazon is a business. It is not an evil entity out to screw people. If some one violates the TOS on a regular basis and gets caught then there are consequences. If I speed and get a ticket, I pay a fine and my insurance goes up. That is a risk associated with speeding. If I violate the TOS and get caught, I might face some consequences including the loss of the books.

How many people have Kindles and how frequently does this happen? I have no problem with buying books from Amazon. I remove the DRM and have back ups of my books. Even without that, I wouldn't have a problem with buying books from Amazon. You have to do something seriously wrong to have this tupe of thing happen.

Or break your Kindle and fabricate a story for some silly reason
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:04 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ProfCrash View Post
In this case, it appears her Kindle was broken and she knew it was broken. Ooopps

Amazon is a business. It is not an evil entity out to screw people. If some one violates the TOS on a regular basis and gets caught then there are consequences. If I speed and get a ticket, I pay a fine and my insurance goes up. That is a risk associated with speeding. If I violate the TOS and get caught, I might face some consequences including the loss of the books.

How many people have Kindles and how frequently does this happen? I have no problem with buying books from Amazon. I remove the DRM and have back ups of my books. Even without that, I wouldn't have a problem with buying books from Amazon. You have to do something seriously wrong to have this tupe of thing happen.

Or break your Kindle and fabricate a story for some silly reason
But what difference does it make if her Kindle was broken? They've apparently closed her account and won't respond to her inquiry with any specifics. And if her account is closed, she can't redownload the books she bought.

Although, in fact, I must say I am beginning to doubt the veracity of the story, because the earlier MR thread about Amazon closing an account also apparently involved a broken Kindle--seems like too much coincidence to me ...
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by dakini View Post
now I'm curious what the 1984 debacle was!
Back in the early days of Kindle a person uploaded a version of 1984 that they did not own the copyright to. Amazon refunded the people who purchased it their money and removed the books from kindles when they found out.

Because of the huge uproar over Amazon removing these illegally sold books, Amazon promised not to remove books from Kindles without user permission.

Last edited by Ajax; 10-22-2012 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:13 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushka View Post
Until it happens to them one day and then they "get" the reasons why.

I'm just thinking though, at a guess, the majority of people having a kindle would not even think of backing their purchases to a hard drive. After all, it's always "in the cloud". So even if the purchases were not DRM'ed, and if an account was closed, there's no way of retrieving them anyway as most people don't backup to a local drive. Just us geeks do that!
Yup.

However, the latest report from Amazon PR says this:

"Update @ 00:30 -*Amazon PR just wrote to say: "We would like to clarify our policy on this topic.*Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library.*If any customer has trouble accessing their content, he or she should contact customer service for help.*Thank you for your interest in Kindle."


*

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakini View Post
now I'm curious what the 1984 debacle was!
I'm probably going to do a lot job explaining but my understanding is that someone put up a ebook copy of "1984" for sale at Amazon. Some people bought it before the rights- holder pitched a fit to Amazon that that seller had no rights to it.

So Amazon remotely deleted the copies from the Kindles it was on and that they could reach, then refunded the purchasers. I think they also have a gift certificate to the purchasers, but not sure when.

Huge outcry ensued, Amazon (Bezos himself, i think) apologized, and said it (remotely removing an ebook from akindle without user permission) should not have been done, and promised to take measures to ensure it never would be done again.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:27 PM   #69
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Again, like the 1984 book, much ado about nothing.

Amazon made restitution for the 1984 booklet but made the mistake of not waiting for a legal order to delete the book.

That order might or might not have come. Who knows now?
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:08 PM   #70
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Again, like the 1984 book, much ado about nothing.
I respectfully disgree. Amazon deleted a book from user devices without first asking permission. This seems to me to be an infringement of a purchaser's rights. Hardly 'nothing.'
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:16 AM   #71
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It wasn't "much ado about nothing" for that student whose annotation file on the Kindle became useless after removal of the book.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:09 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Piper_ View Post
I'm probably going to do a lot job explaining but my understanding is that someone put up a ebook copy of "1984" for sale at Amazon. Some people bought it before the rights- holder pitched a fit to Amazon that that seller had no rights to it.

So Amazon remotely deleted the copies from the Kindles it was on and that they could reach, then refunded the purchasers. I think they also have a gift certificate to the purchasers, but not sure when.

Huge outcry ensued, Amazon (Bezos himself, i think) apologized, and said it (remotely removing an ebook from akindle without user permission) should not have been done, and promised to take measures to ensure it never would be done again.
It was more complicated than that. The book in question (and at least one other Orwell book) are in the public domain in some countries, but not in the US. They were uploaded to Amazon by a company in a country where it was in the public domain, they say set up to sell in their own country only. (Amazon hasn't really disputed that claim, but they haven't owned up to a technical glitch either. So far as I know.) The US rights holder sent an infringement notice, Amazon (rightly, at that point, since they had the ability) deleted it from devices.

The reasons it was such a big deal were that 1) they did so without any notice or explanation until the internet exploded on them, and 2) among the marketing claims when they first introducted the Kindle was that they couldn't do so, and their terms of service made no allowance for doing so under any circumstances. They amended their terms of service, and promised not to do it ever, ever again unless they were ordered to by a court, and spent some time wiping egg off their faces.

It left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths (including me - this was one of the reasons I bought a nook instead of a Kindle).
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:35 AM   #73
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Aren't we all guessing its a DRM issue? Maybe they keep buying products, use them a bit and then return them?
Excellent point. I don't think Amazon will hitch their pants for someone circumventing geo-restrictions, but if you return books and don't delete them from your device on a regular basis they are forced to react.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:52 AM   #74
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What a coincidence between content of "1984" (the book), and the "1984 debacle"! (I mean, Corporation overpowering)
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:10 AM   #75
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Her account is open again, still no explanation provided.

(Sorry, I only have this Norwegian article about it: http://www.nrk.no/kultur-og-underholdning/1.8368487 )
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