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Old 10-18-2012, 09:22 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
All eBook stores seem to say the same. Eg, Amazon say:
They look different to me. Amazon says if you bought the book, you can display it. Kobo says if your a registered user, you cannot display it.

Sounds very different to me.
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:36 PM   #62
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They look different to me. Amazon says if you bought the book, you can display it. Kobo says if your a registered user, you cannot display it.

Sounds very different to me.
They're using the word "display" in different ways. I'd interpret Kobo's use of "display" to mean "put on public show", whereas Amazon are using it in the sense of the display screen of the Kindle.
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:43 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
I've just sent kobo an email to get clarification.
A copy of my email:
Spoiler:
Dear Kobo,

A question about terms of use, specifically item 9:

"9. Literary Works.
All literary works at kobobooks.com are the exclusive property of the publisher or its licensors and is protected by copyright and other intellectual property laws. The download of these literary works is intended for Kobo's Registered Users' personal and non-commercial use. Any other use of literary works downloaded from kobobooks.com is strictly prohibited. Registered Users may not modify, transmit, publish, participate in the transfer or sale of, reproduce, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, display, or in any way exploit, any of the content of these literary works, in whole or in part. By downloading literary works from kobobooks.com, the Registered User hereby acknowledges and agrees to these terms."

When I buy a Kobo book, who else am I authorised to allow to read it?

e.g.
Spouse?
Child?
Child at University?
Parent?
Sister-in-law?
Nephew?
Close friend?

Or no-one at all?

regards,

Paul Durrant


So far I've got an automated reponse, and a note that my query has been escalated to their Tier 2 support.

I'm a little bit surprised that they didn't have a canned answer for this query.

Perhaps I should try a similar message to Amazon.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:03 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
Perhaps I should try a similar message to Amazon.
I've done so:


Spoiler:
This is a question about item 1 of terms of use, specifically the bits

"Use of Digital Content.
[...]the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content [...] solely for your personal, non-commercial use."

and

"Limitations. [...]you may not [...] assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party"

When I buy a Kindle book, who else am I authorised to allow to read it?

e.g.
Spouse?
Child?
Child at University?
Parent?
Sister-in-law?
Nephew?
Close friend?

Or no-one at all?

regards,

Paul Durrant
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:47 PM   #65
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So far I've got an automated reponse, and a note that my query has been escalated to their Tier 2 support.

I'm a little bit surprised that they didn't have a canned answer for this query.
I have a reply that doesn't answer the question.

Spoiler:
Hi Paul,

Thank you for contacting Kobo Customer Care. We are happy to offer clarification regarding "9. Literary Works. (Terms of Use)

In answer to your question, nobody - the only way you can share is by giving someone access to your account.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
The Kobo Team


I have followed up with another email:

Spoiler:
Dear Kobo Customer Care,

Thank you for your response to my question, but it seems to be a technical rather than legal answer to my question. Obviously no-one is able read my books (the DRMed ones, anyway) unless they have access to my account, i.e. have a device authorised to my Adobe ID.

But I am asking about the licence terms.

May I let my spouse read ebooks that I have bought (on a device authorised to my Adobe ID)?
May I let my children read ebooks that I have bought (on a device authorised to my Adobe ID)?
May I let a close friend read ebooks that I have bought (on a device authorised to my Adobe ID)?

I'm sorry to go on about this, but I do want to understand how many copies of an ebook you expect a household to buy if everyone in the household wants to read it. Your licence terms seem to imply that a copy needs to be bought for everyone who wants to read the ebook.

Yours,

Paul Durrant.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:54 PM   #66
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This might be one of those questions nobody wants to risk having codified as a strict law or rule, but follow a “reasonable man" approach.

- Publishers are unlikely to want Amazon or BN to give us stated permission to share our purchases with anyone we allow to download from our account, without any limits.
- Purchasers are likely to protest if Amazon officially threatens to enforce the level of restrictions the publishers want.
- Amazon is probably somewhere in the middle, preferring not to have to draw and enforce a hard line.

I read two things in the last few days that, if true, would seem to be Amazon's tightening things:

1. We can no longer register a kindle by simply entering its serial# from the MYK page.
2. Books downloaded from one account are only readable while the device is registered to that account, even on kindle devices, not just apps (?... I have two accounts and would check, but not sure which came from what account or have been cleaned...)
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:05 PM   #67
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You know, I started this thread, simply to see if there was a way to lend a book to a friend using the facilities provided by the book owners / sellers. From a layman/dumb user perspective, it's just something you'd expect to be able to do, at least, after they sort the software out. I didn't imagine the ensuing discussion. Still it is interesting, and if nothing else, illustrates the mess the industry has gotten itself into.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:35 PM   #68
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You know, I started this thread, simply to see if there was a way to lend a book to a friend using the facilities provided by the book owners / sellers. From a layman/dumb user perspective, it's just something you'd expect to be able to do, at least, after they sort the software out. I didn't imagine the ensuing discussion. Still it is interesting, and if nothing else, illustrates the mess the industry has gotten itself into.
True. At this point, only Amazon & BN offer official lending, but the publishers have to approve it, and few, if any, of the big ones do.

... and the fact that those publishers won't even allow that highly-restricted sort of lending (a book can only be lent one time in its life, and then only for two weeks, during which time, only the lendee can read it, all managed by Amazon/BN) says a lot about what *they* would like the answer to pdurrant's question to be.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:39 AM   #69
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I've done so:
Amazon also replied with a technical, rather than a legal, answer:

Spoiler:
Thank you for contacting Amazon.co.uk.

Kindle content cannot be shared between separate Amazon.co.uk accounts.

You can share your Kindle content on multiple Kindle devices or Kindle applications provided they are registered to the same Amazon.co.uk account. All available content will appear in the Archived Items of each device/app registered to the same account.

The purchase and download of digital content from Amazon.co.uk, including content from the Kindle Store, is associated only with the Amazon.co.uk account used to make the original purchase.

There is no limit on the number of times Kindle content can be downloaded to a registered Kindle device or application. Publishers determine how many copies of each title can be downloaded to different Kindle devices or applications at the same time so there may be limits on the number of devices (usually six) that can simultaneously have a single book or Kindle active content title.

If the limit is less than six Kindles for a specific title, you'll see the message "Simultaneous Device usage: Up to X simultaneous devices, per publisher limits" on the website detail page. Currently Kindle subscriptions cannot be automatically delivered to the Home Screen of more than one device. You can download your Kindle subscription to another device from the Archived Items on that Kindle if both devices are registered to the same account.

The options for transferring content, and instructions for each option, are available in our Help pages here:

www.amazon.co.uk/kindletransfer

I hope this information helps. Thanks for your interest in Kindle.



I have followed up with a similar response to the one I sent Kobo:

Spoiler:
Dear Amazon,

Thank you for your response to my question, but it seems to be a technical rather than legal answer to my question. Obviously no-one is able read my books (the DRMed ones, anyway) unless they have access to a device registered to my account.

But I am asking about the licence terms, and what they allow me to do, not the technical limitations imposed by the DRM system.

May I let my spouse read ebooks that I have bought (on a device registered to my Kindle Account)?
May I let my children read ebooks that I have bought (on a device registered to my Kindle Account)?
May I let a close friend read ebooks that I have bought (on a device registered to my Kindle Account)?

I'm sorry to go on about this, but I do want to understand how many copies of an ebook you expect a household to buy if everyone in the household wants to read it. Your licence terms seem to imply that a copy needs to be bought for everyone who wants to read the ebook.

Yours,

Paul Durrant.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:41 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Piper_ View Post
This might be one of those questions nobody wants to risk having codified as a strict law or rule, but follow a “reasonable man" approach.
I agree that they probably don't want clarity here, as I suspect that the clear answer will be that only the account holder is permitted to read the ebooks.

I am now intrigued enough to follow up until I exhaust their patience or they give me a straight answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper_ View Post
... and the fact that those publishers won't even allow that highly-restricted sort of lending (a book can only be lent one time in its life, and then only for two weeks, during which time, only the lendee can read it, all managed by Amazon/BN) says a lot about what *they* would like the answer to pdurrant's question to be.
A very good point!
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:26 AM   #71
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Amazon also replied with a technical, rather than a legal, answer:
But Amazon have now come back with a real answer: "You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so."

Full reply in spoiler tags.
Spoiler:
I am sorry about the confusion caused by my colleagues reply to your query.

In this case, I can confirm that in most cases, Paid Books have on average 6 Licenses and Free books have on average 99 Licenses.

Publishers choose whether they apply digital rights management software (DRM) to their content. There is no limit on the number of times a title can be downloaded to a registered Kindle device or Kindle-compatible device running a Kindle application, but there may be limits on the number of Kindle devices and applications (usually 6) that can simultaneously use a single book. If the limit is less than six Kindles devices or applications for a specific title, you'll see the message "Simultaneous Device usage: Up to X simultaneous devices, per publisher limits" on the website detail page.

This means that your Spouse's, Children's and even your friend's Kindle can be registered to your account and can download and read your books from you Archived items. Provided they do not exceed the limit of licenses.

Therefore, you can buy one copy of a book and have it available to be read on up to six devices (if it is a paid book) and up to 99 devices if it is a free book.

In terms of use, you have purchase a copy of a book with us, and it is your copy. You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so.

Should you have any further issues, please do not hesitate to contact us again.


I don't see any ambiguity here, and it seems a very sensible answer.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:46 PM   #72
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Does that mean that, I, being your best friend of course , and already having an Amazon account should sign out my kindle (that I don't possess but it's for the demonstration's sake) and sign in with your account in order to read a book you, generously, lend to me ? Or is it a way to be signed in with multiple accounts on a kindle ? As far as I understand it, for the Kobo (Touch and Glo at least) you can be signed in just one account at a time.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:55 PM   #73
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Does that mean that, I, being your best friend of course , and already having an Amazon account should sign out my kindle (that I don't possess but it's for the demonstration's sake) and sign in with your account in order to read a book you, generously, lend to me ? Or is it a way to be signed in with multiple accounts on a kindle ? As far as I understand it, for the Kobo (Touch and Glo at least) you can be signed in just one account at a time.
Kindles can only be registered with one account at a time. A Kindle can only be registered to an Amazon account if you're logged in to an Amazon account. In addition, it's possible to buy things at Amazon through a Kindle registered to an account.

One would be most unlikely to allow even a best friend that kind of access to one's Amazon account.

It seems a very reasonable policy. Anyone I trust with my account can read the books I've bought.

I would also like to see a slightly less stringent lending policy, but I can see (given easy connectivity) why unlimited serial lending to anyone in the world with another Kindle could worry the publishers.
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Old 10-19-2012, 05:51 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
But Amazon have now come back with a real answer: "You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so."

Full reply in spoiler tags.
Quote:
I am sorry about the confusion caused by my colleagues reply to your query.
...

Publishers choose whether they apply digital rights management software (DRM) to their content. There is no limit on the number of times a title can be downloaded to a registered Kindle device or Kindle-compatible device running a Kindle application, but there may be limits on the number of Kindle devices and applications (usually 6) that can simultaneously use a single book.[...]

This means that your Spouse's, Children's and even your friend's Kindle can be registered to your account and can download and read your books from you Archived items. Provided they do not exceed the limit of licenses.

...

In terms of use, you have purchase a copy of a book with us, and it is your copy. You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so.
...
I don't see any ambiguity here, and it seems a very sensible answer.
Great job! And I totally agree - Very sensible.

We need to keep a link to this post handy. (though I'm hesitant to flaunt it, for fear the publishers might make demands. )
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:10 PM   #75
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In terms of use, you have purchase a copy of a book with us, and it is your copy. You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so.
I think the first part of this is important. You OWN your copy of the book and are entitled to let a friend read it. Technical problems with doing that aside - this is what I had expected/hoped to be the case.
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