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Old 10-16-2012, 04:57 PM   #46
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I honestly can't see e-lending becoming a priority for anyone, including Kobo. It's a difficult process.

Lending a physical book is easy. You hand the book to the other person. They take it and read it. Simple. The publishers & other copyright holders are grudgingly content because at least you, the original purchaser, don't have access to the work for the length of the loan. (Publishers would naturally prefer that folks don't lend books, or sell used books, but instead everyone buys new copies. But they can live with the physical book lending model.)

Lending an ebook gets a lot more complicated. For one thing, how do you make it easy? E-mailing the file isn't as simple as you'd think... at least not for the non-tech-savvy. Where is the file stored? How's it named?

And it doesn't answer the question for the copyright holders: how do you disable your access to the book while it's loaned out? To do that, you need something interacting with the file, temporarily locking you out of it.

E-book reader retailers can do this, because they're using DRM and they continually update your library whenever you sync. But then they have to implement new features in the firmware ("Lend this book to a friend.")

But what about non-DRM titles? (Thankfully on the uprise.) What about that second e-reader that you almost never sync? What about the one in calibre?

It's virtually impossible to be sure that someone hasn't kept access to the book in some way. Which is why publishers will never be enthusiastic about enabling lending, or about extending first-sale rights to e-books.

Libraries have the infrastructure to pull off e-book lending. I can't see the average joe ever having the infrastructure, or wanting it. The closest we're gonna get is the Amazon program, and you can see how much buy-in that's gotten. (Then there's the Amazon library thing which you get with Prime. Consider it a paid library membership.)
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:29 PM   #47
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Sorry, you've slightly lost me. Why can't you?
DRM is the reason. The example/model I used - detailed above - is the way a library lends an ebook. This is how it WAS supposed to work for everyone.

When the book is loaned out, the licence count of the lender is decremented by 1. Since, I, as the lender, have only one licence - I can no longer open the book to read it as I now have 0 licences.

The borrower's licence is incremented from 0 to 1, so they can now read the book. After the preset lending period, the reverse happens. The borrower's count decrements to 0 - they cease being able to read the book. The loender's licence increments back to 1, so they can now read the book again.

At NO TIME can 2 people read the same book.
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:42 PM   #48
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I honestly can't see e-lending becoming a priority for anyone, including Kobo. It's a difficult process.

That didn't stop the proponents of DRM'd ebooks using the promised feature of e-lending to bolster their argument.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:47 PM   #49
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I'm assuming that that's a serious question so I'll give it a serious answer. A real book can't be easily reproduced and if you lend a copy to your friend then you are no longer in posession of said copy.

Anybody who believes that hasn't being paying attention. I have a Canon MP280 that I bought new for $30 (it's a scanner, ink jet printer and copier.) I can scan the average paper back in less than two hours and I can produce an ebook in under 24 hours that will have fewer errors than most of the legit ebooks from the major publishers. Things have changed from the days when Xerox had a monopoly of copiers and it would cost five time the cost of a book to copy it. Cheap scanners (I was quite surprised at just how good the Canon was) along with good software (I use Abby Sprint that came with an old Epson scanner, it works very well) has made copying books (and the creation of ebooks) almost trivial.

I bought the book, it's mine. For me that is the end of discussion.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:03 PM   #50
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Anybody who believes that hasn't being paying attention. I have a Canon MP280 that I bought new for $30 (it's a scanner, ink jet printer and copier.) I can scan the average paper back in less than two hours and I can produce an ebook in under 24 hours that will have fewer errors than most of the legit ebooks from the major publishers. Things have changed from the days when Xerox had a monopoly of copiers and it would cost five time the cost of a book to copy it. Cheap scanners (I was quite surprised at just how good the Canon was) along with good software (I use Abby Sprint that came with an old Epson scanner, it works very well) has made copying books (and the creation of ebooks) almost trivial.
So, scan the paperback in less than2 hours (lets say 1 hour for discussion purposes) and produce an eBook in less than 24 hours (lets say 12 hours for discussion purposes). And lets ignore the fixed costs of buying and operating a scanner.

So, you are willing to invest 13 hours of your time to produce something that can be purchased for ... what $10? So, by my math, you are valuing your time at $0.769 per hour. Heck, lets round that up to the full dollar. So your time is worth less than $1.00 per hour.

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I bought the book, it's mine. For me that is the end of discussion.
Brilliant defence. I can't wait to see how that holds up in court.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:35 PM   #51
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I remember discussion about Japanese book sales reduction because many people scanning and giving away digital copies because of shortage of digitized books. Flat bed scanners are slow book scanner is faster and give better results. Search for diybookscanner. Not worth my time as books are relative cheap or free and I would rather read slow for recreation but can read much faster when needed.
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:37 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by jusmee View Post
DRM is the reason. The example/model I used - detailed above - is the way a library lends an ebook. This is how it WAS supposed to work for everyone.

When the book is loaned out, the licence count of the lender is decremented by 1. Since, I, as the lender, have only one licence - I can no longer open the book to read it as I now have 0 licences.

The borrower's licence is incremented from 0 to 1, so they can now read the book. After the preset lending period, the reverse happens. The borrower's count decrements to 0 - they cease being able to read the book. The loender's licence increments back to 1, so they can now read the book again.

At NO TIME can 2 people read the same book.
Can you explain how you would do this (ie lend a book to a friend) on the Kobo? I wasn't aware that the Kobo offered this capability; is it something that's been recently introduced?
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:50 AM   #53
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Can you explain how you would do this (ie lend a book to a friend) on the Kobo? I wasn't aware that the Kobo offered this capability; is it something that's been recently introduced?
If you read the thread you will understand. I never said Kobo had the ability to do this It was a feature touted by the introducers of DRM that never appeared, except at libraries. You should direct your question to those that promised the feature.
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:17 AM   #54
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This actually ties into the question of the price of ebooks. If publishers seriously expect the person buying the ebook to be the only person allowed to read the ebook, the cost of an ebook needs to be a fraction of the cost of a paperback.

e.g. Kobo Book's terms of use includes:

"9. Literary Works.
All literary works at kobobooks.com are the exclusive property of the publisher or its licensors and is protected by copyright and other intellectual property laws. The download of these literary works is intended for Kobo's Registered Users' personal and non-commercial use. Any other use of literary works downloaded from kobobooks.com is strictly prohibited. Registered Users may not modify, transmit, publish, participate in the transfer or sale of, reproduce, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, display, or in any way exploit, any of the content of these literary works, in whole or in part. By downloading literary works from kobobooks.com, the Registered User hereby acknowledges and agrees to these terms."

I've just sent kobo an email to get clarification.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:28 AM   #55
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That is how copyright works. It is standard warning and part of enforcing copyright. No point in complaining to Kobo. Copyrights have been extended much longer than logical or originally intended thanks to lobbying congress and Micky Mouse in USA.

Statement that All literary works at kobobooks.com are still protected by copyright is half true because they have many free public domain books last time I really looked at their books.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:04 AM   #56
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That is how copyright works. It is standard warning and part of enforcing copyright. No point in complaining to Kobo. Copyrights have been extended much longer than logical or originally intended thanks to lobbying congress and Micky Mouse in USA.

Statement that All literary works at kobobooks.com are still protected by copyright is half true because they have many free public domain books last time I really looked at their books.
The statement of copyright isn't the problem. The problem is

"Kobo's Registered Users' personal and non-commercial use. Any other use of literary works downloaded from kobobooks.com is strictly prohibited"

and

"Registered Users may not [...] display"

which seem to say that only the registered user may read the ebook.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:10 AM   #57
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The statement of copyright isn't the problem. The problem is

"Kobo's Registered Users' personal and non-commercial use. Any other use of literary works downloaded from kobobooks.com is strictly prohibited"

and

"Registered Users may not [...] display"

which seem to say that only the registered user may read the ebook.
All eBook stores seem to say the same. Eg, Amazon say:

Quote:
(The) Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Supported Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:16 AM   #58
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All eBook stores seem to say the same. Eg, Amazon say:
Yes. The big question is whether your "personal, non-commercial use" includes letting anyone else read it.

If they really mean that my spouse or children should not read the purchased ebooks, then ebook prices need to be a lot lower.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:19 AM   #59
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Registered Users may not modify, transmit, publish, participate in the transfer or sale of, reproduce, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, display, or in any way exploit, any of the content of these literary works, in whole or in part. By downloading literary works from kobobooks.com, the Registered User hereby acknowledges and agrees to these terms."
How are we supposed to read the things if we can't display them on our eReaders?
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:20 AM   #60
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How are we supposed to read the things if we can't display them on our eReaders?
To be fair, we're allowed personal use, which must include reading them. I interpret display as displaying to others.
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