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Old 10-08-2012, 12:08 PM   #106
JoeD
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According to too many scared people, it seems like the sky will indeed fall once that happens. On the other hand, non-commercial filesharing is already legal in several countries, e. g. Spain, so yeah ... It's probably not gonna bring about the end of civilization as we know it.
Well , if non commercial copying was legal, I'd never buy a single video game, movie, book, tv show or software product ever again. I imagine I'm not alone in that view. Enough people do that and we'll see all the non-commercial entertainment products vanish over time.

Companies will stop making games for entertainment, they'll go back to making software that businesses can use commercially so they can charge for it.

Will movie companies still make movies if they can only sell them to cinemas which are struggling?

imho copyright is essential, however with reasonable time spans which I think the current continued extensions and creep is anything but. To pick an arbitrary number, make it 50 years fixed, no relation to whether you've died or not. That means if you make a single product when you're 20, you can live off it until you're 70 assuming it's popular. Make something just before you retire and you're set for life. After you die, any remaining years of that 50 years should be passed onto whoever gets your inheritance. The actual value of 50 is arbitrary and could be argued about for some time, but the main point is we should imo get away from life + X.

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Old 10-08-2012, 01:42 PM   #107
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funny little anecdote about piracy countermeasures. Bought this lovely piano piece score yesterday:

http://store.michelemclaughlin.com/I...%28PDF_Song%29

once the transaction is over you get a download link for a "personalized" PDF file. It comes with your name (via credit card info) on all pages. I thought it clever.

sure, a convict pirate would remove it all in a blink of an eye, but it's much too strong a desire to share with other people something you legally bought in detriment of the artist.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:33 PM   #108
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Well , if non commercial copying was legal, I'd never buy a single video game, movie, book, tv show or software product ever again. I imagine I'm not alone in that view. Enough people do that and we'll see all the non-commercial entertainment products vanish over time.
And yet, the bottled water industry makes millions selling something that almost everyone has access to for free.

People pay for internet access even in areas with substantial free public wifi centres.

A lot of people are willing to pay for something they can get for free if it's convenient and they think the price is reasonable.

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Will movie companies still make movies if they can only sell them to cinemas which are struggling?
They made them for a long time when they could only sell them to cinemas. They continued to make them after screaming that VCRs would destroy the movie industry. Noncommercial copying of movies broadcast on TV is *already* legal.

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The actual value of 50 is arbitrary and could be argued about for some time, but the main point is we should imo get away from life + X.
I agree, but most of the people who argue about copyright seem content with the idea of Life + whatever. I would like to see the public domain be something useful to the current generation's grandchildren... so if you loved a book or song or movie in your childhood, your grandchildren would have free access to it, with no limitations on how they can use it. This 70-to-130-years garbage just means "everything except the mega-cash-cows fades into obsolescence and obscurity before anyone else gets to play with it."
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:11 PM   #109
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And yet, the bottled water industry makes millions selling something that almost everyone has access to for free.

People pay for internet access even in areas with substantial free public wifi centers.
May I send you my monthly water bill since it's supposed to be free?

Actually, I now have to drink bottled water. The water co started adding chloramine (which can't be filtered out) along with sending us a newsletter telling us how "toxic" it is to wildlife. Despite what the literature says it still tastes like ammonia.
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:32 PM   #110
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Well , if non commercial copying was legal, I'd never buy a single video game, movie, book, tv show or software product ever again. I imagine I'm not alone in that view. Enough people do that and we'll see all the non-commercial entertainment products vanish over time.
Well there's lots of free apps on Android, so free obviously isn't a barrier to commerce. But if all the money spent on chasing downloaders was spent on chasing first uploaders instead I doubt there would be anywhere near as much pirate stuff for you to download.
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:57 PM   #111
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I agree, but most of the people who argue about copyright seem content with the idea of Life + whatever. I would like to see the public domain be something useful to the current generation's grandchildren... so if you loved a book or song or movie in your childhood, your grandchildren would have free access to it, with no limitations on how they can use it. This 70-to-130-years garbage just means "everything except the mega-cash-cows fades into obsolescence and obscurity before anyone else gets to play with it."
What I would like to see is for copyright to last for some limited time after the death of the creator--say 25 years. After that, it would need to be renewed for another 25 years; say four renewals would be allowed, for a maximum of 125 years after the creator's death. A grace period would be allowed at each renewal period.

This sort of scheme would allow works that are still commercially viable to continue to make money for the family and the estate, as long as they renew. If they don't renew, the work goes into public domain.

I think this is a compromise among competing interests. House of Mouse gets to keep its copyrights, but lots more works will fall into public domain more quickly.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:56 PM   #112
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Well there's lots of free apps on Android
Not all that many, really. Some you pay for via advertising (for example, the "free" versions of the Angry Birds games), many others you pay for by giving up your personal information, allowing your location to be tracked, etc., etc... There are very, very few that are truly free, that you aren't paying for in some manner other (usually more exploitive) than cash.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:35 AM   #113
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Not all that many, really. Some you pay for via advertising (for example, the "free" versions of the Angry Birds games), many others you pay for by giving up your personal information, allowing your location to be tracked, etc., etc... There are very, very few that are truly free, that you aren't paying for in some manner other (usually more exploitive) than cash.
There are other ways of generating revenue from media. A lot of people will simply pay for convenience or quality. People still buy public domain books and movies.

There are many models based on no direct payment such as ad-supported TV or micro-transaction supported games. Many very large MMO games are now free to play but you can buy special items and perks. These games are doing well in general and we will see more of them.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:07 PM   #114
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Well there's lots of free apps on Android, so free obviously isn't a barrier to commerce. But if all the money spent on chasing downloaders was spent on chasing first uploaders instead I doubt there would be anywhere near as much pirate stuff for you to download.
Yes there are, but they're often monetising in other ways. Via sponsership/advertising, via DLC with in-app purchasing.

Whilst we do get totally free software, in most cases also released as open source, it's a huge leap to assume without copyright we'd still enjoy the same levels of entertainment.

We may get the odd free fan film/indie film, but we wouldn't get any more traditional movies imo. Unless financing and profit could occur prior to the movies release. Same with books, we get free books, but they're often as a means to market further books from the author.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:14 PM   #115
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And yet, the bottled water industry makes millions selling something that almost everyone has access to for free.
You don't always have free access to water though. When you're out walking, there's often no taps nor clean water supply.

If people have poor water quality in their homes, bottled water in quantity also makes sense (or a filtration system).

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People pay for internet access even in areas with substantial free public wifi centres.
I'm not aware of examples of that, but even so, if you're sharing wifi, you have to be nearby such a location and even if you live within it, you have to accept the issues of bandwidth competition depending on the number of other users. You also have to take more care over privacy/security when anyone else on the same wifi network can read your data.

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A lot of people are willing to pay for something they can get for free if it's convenient and they think the price is reasonable.
I agree. However, if movies had no copyright, I'm certain it would be very convenient to download it for free and watch it on your HDTV/Home cinema system vs paying to do the same. Even the current torrent system would become more user friendly and likely be built directly into the viewing apps such as XBMC or other media center apps. Since they'd have no legal worries about providing easy access to free downloads now they're no longer illegal.

Whilst I wouldn't go as far as saying it'd destroy all forms of entertainment (business often finds a way even if the players have to change for that to happen), I do believe it would be a seismic shift in the way entertainment is made/distributed and consumed.

Could we live without copyright, I imagine so. Would we want to, I'm not sure that's really possible to answer.

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They made them for a long time when they could only sell them to cinemas.
For a long time we didn't have 40 inch TVs or projectors in the home and surround sound systems and the same quality or higher in many case than cinemas have.

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I agree, but most of the people who argue about copyright seem content with the idea of Life + whatever.
I just don't like the life part. I'd rather copyright be X years. Whether that's 10, 20, 50 or 100 I don't care all that much.

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This 70-to-130-years garbage just means "everything except the mega-cash-cows fades into obsolescence and obscurity before anyone else gets to play with it."
I agree and there's good arguments for shorter or longer copyright times. A fair balance could be made without the life + part though imo.

Last edited by JoeD; 10-09-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:31 AM   #116
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Well , if non commercial copying was legal, I'd never buy a single video game, movie, book, tv show or software product ever again. I imagine I'm not alone in that view. Enough people do that and we'll see all the non-commercial entertainment products vanish over time..
I would. In fact, I already pay for stuff I can get for free. Amanda Palmer's latest album, for example. MP3s on Amazon because of the cloud storage. And especially stuff from artist where I know my money gets to them and they need it and they did it from their heart, without executives or committees sucking all the creative life out of it, as happens with far too many movies.

If copyright was abolished, we could have the richness of adaptions we see with great PD characters and authors like Sherlock Holmes and Shakespeare for everything without having to wait a hundred years. People could even sell their fanfiction (without superficially changing character's names and pretending their work is not actually fanfiction whatsoever, that is ). Dōjinshi are already being sold at conventions in Japan and the sky has not fallen there, either.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:59 AM   #117
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According to too many scared people, it seems like the sky will indeed fall once that happens. On the other hand, non-commercial filesharing is already legal in several countries, e. g. Spain, so yeah ... It's probably not gonna bring about the end of civilization as we know it.
BTW, I find it ironically funny how it is not Spain burning people down this time around...
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:05 AM   #118
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I would. In fact, I already pay for stuff I can get for free. Amanda Palmer's latest album, for example. MP3s on Amazon because of the cloud storage. And especially stuff from artist where I know my money gets to them and they need it and they did it from their heart, without executives or committees sucking all the creative life out of it, as happens with far too many movies.
Wouldn't you be paying for the cloud storage only though rather than also for the MP3's? With no copyright, Amazon could host mp3's for every track in existence and just charge you for cloud access. As could competing providers along with those who self host with their own home based cloud.

There'd be no need for payments directly to the musicians and for anyone using amazon's service there may be no indirect payments. Granted, Amazon may still reimburse musicians, but they'd be under no legal obligation to do so and if Amazon did, it'd push up the cost of their service leaving a competitor free to charge for bandwidth costs only and not pay royalties. Some may still go with Amazon or whoever does pay royalties knowing it's the only way to keep new music coming, but I would assume most will go with the cheaper service all other things been equal in terms of service quality.

I agree with you that some people will still realise that musicians/authors won't likely continue to create unless they make enough to live off, but if you're getting all your films from a netflix like service with no monthly subscription and the movie makers are getting nothing from the people watching it via that service, would they continue to make films?

Perhaps they could find alternative sources of income or rely on the cinema fees, but then, cinemas wouldn't have to pay to screen the film if they can get their hands on a copy. One cinema buys access to the film and could then give it away or sell it onto others for next to nothing or an employee runs off a copy and passes it on (things that currently happen occasionally now despite been illegal, but there'd be no stopping it if it wasn't illegal).


How much do people pay to download the free ebooks from the mobile read library, or pay to use the free mobile read forum? Does that money go to cover hosting/bandwidth costs or to the people who maintain the free library? If copyright didn't exist, would any of it go the original authors who's out of copyright books we're making use of?

When everyone can offer all books/music/movies for free, will enough people still pay for the stuff they can get for free? I'm sure some will donate to free sites now and then as they can see the value they're getting from it, but imo they're a minority and likely not enough to sustain an entire group of industries. I'd also expect in most cases that the donations would go to the people running the site or hosting costs and not to the people who's out of copyright content is been used.

Granted it'd be difficult in the current situation to pay the creators when copyright is life + X so my assertion is nothing more than a guess, I could be wrong

Quote:
If copyright was abolished, we could have the richness of adaptions we see with great PD characters and authors like Sherlock Holmes and Shakespeare for everything without having to wait a hundred years.
I agree. Although we could enjoy that with reduced but not eliminated copyright terms too. Allowing creators a chance to profit from their creations first, then public access.

Last edited by JoeD; 10-10-2012 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:20 PM   #119
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May I send you my monthly water bill since it's supposed to be free?
Heh. By that logic, torrented downloads aren't free; they cost electricity to run your computer!

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Actually, I now have to drink bottled water. The water co started adding chloramine (which can't be filtered out) along with sending us a newsletter telling us how "toxic" it is to wildlife. Despite what the literature says it still tastes like ammonia.
While there are plenty of people who buy bottled water because their local tapwater doesn't taste good (or, sometimes, is actually unsafe), the bottled-water industry didn't take off because of them. It took off because people will pay the same price for water that they will for soda--if it's convenient and cold when they want it.

Ending the commercial threat of piracy (as opposed to "ending piracy," which isn't possible) won't occur by punishing or preventing unauthorized filesharing; it can only be mitigated by convincing people to buy, and that's an entirely different approach to the problem.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:43 AM   #120
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If you're concerned about extracting money from endusers/clients/whatever you want to call them - the problem is, when you start suing your potential customers, you lose business. I think, more than you gain from the lawsuits, personally. I know I haven't bought a new RIAA affiliated album in years - this from someone who used to buy dozens each year.
It is impossible to lose business from people who are already using your IP without paying you.

If they are given the choice between pay up or stop using the software some may pay some may use something else but, even if none of them pay, you are losing no business.
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