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Old 10-04-2012, 03:45 PM   #151
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I don't think we should have any duplicate categories. Sure, some can overlap, but to be the same as another is wrong (IMHO). So please come up with something other then "yet the same category we already have".
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:58 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sun surfer View Post
A vote will settle it one way or the other, but I would prefer to keep two classics.

I remember last year we had a similar discussion and it seemed the majority of posts were in favour of getting rid of a classic month, and then the vote came and a solid majority wanted to keep two classic months.

I would also like to add that despite the complaints, the two classic months are two of our most popular months with some of the most nominations and most votes.
...
One reason classics do so well is because they're often free. And every category shows up in other categories, not just classics. Just look at this month - in the "Horror" category we have selections that could also be considered "Thriller/Suspense", "Humour", "Mystery/Crime", "Fantasy" and even "Romance". And we get "Science Fiction" nominations in many categories throughout the year as well.
I withdraw my original suggestion and suggest that every month be Classics. That would remove the four categories I might potentially care about and free up my time from paying attention to the book clubs.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:42 AM   #153
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Other category possibilities I would be interested in:

-Drama (not plays) - We could really use a category for "normal" plots, no wizards, no aliens, no serial killers, etc. We currently have no category that could fit in many good books because the plots don't fall into some special genre, so this category could fill that hole.

-Young Adult - I've always liked YA, it would be a fun, easy category, and it's a very distinct category that would fit in well.

-Adventure - As in, travelling, exploring, etc. It could include books from say, Crocodile on the Sandbank, to The Princess Bride, to Indiana Jones type stories, to spy thrillers such as James Bond, to westerns, to even The Odyssey. I think it could be a great category.
I like all of these suggestions. But I also don't mind the award winners category either.

I'm personally not so fussed with a non-fiction category, but I can always skip that month if people want to have it. I don't participate every month anyway.

After all that though, I don't care if we keep the two classics months. I must just be a particularly affable chap today.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:10 PM   #154
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Nominate a non-fiction award winner, it will be a guaranteed win. ...
Not unless there are more folks like Billi and I voting.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:37 PM   #155
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Can we try award winning books for December and see how it goes?
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:04 PM   #156
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Can we try award winning books for December and see how it goes?
No, we can't. For someone who's so fond of the rule about ebooks, you're conveniently forgetting the one that says that no changes will be made to 2012.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:37 PM   #157
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I was thinking about how we could possibly figure all this out about categories easily but fairly. This may sound slightly complex but it's only because I'm taking the time to explain it well and I think this could get us definitive decisions with the least amount of hard feelings or argument. It is somewhat like the way we decide monthly selections. Here’s my suggestion:


First, we need two groups -

Group A) Categories we’re considering eliminating/combining
Group B) Categories we’re considering adding


We have two options for coming up with those groups -

1) We could take everything suggested in this thread.

or

2) Tom starts two nominations threads at the same time, one for Group A and one for Group B. Like regular book nominations, it could require three nominations to make something “fully nominated”. However, each poster would have unlimited nominations to use. The nominations would last until a specific date and would end up with as few or as many get fully nominated. The nominations for Group A could last say one or two weeks. The nominations for Group B, starting at the same time, could last twice as long since we won't need the results of that group as early. We could even start these nominations soon, since the process might take awhile with the longer periods for nominating/voting. And though it might crowd the stickies for a bit, all these nomination/voting threads should be stickied while in progress because they’re important for the club and so no one misses any of them.


Second, once groups are decided, we need to vote on them. I suggest we break it apart into two sections, voting on Group A first and then voting on Group B once everything about Group A is decided. Here’s what I’ve thought of as the easiest, fairest method -


For Group A, we’d use a different poll/thread for each suggestion, all started at the same time and running concurrently. This way there’d be no confusion (unlike if they were all in one poll) and would let us discuss in the threads each one separately as voting is going on. I would imagine there wouldn’t be that many options in this group, probably just a few and maybe even just one, but even if there were say 12, I think it’s important to keep a separate poll/thread for each.

There’d be no “maybe” or “I don’t care” options, just a yes/no on each poll. If people don’t care or aren’t sure then they don’t have to vote; maybes and don’t cares just cause a muddying of the waters. All the polls for Group A would be HIDDEN for maximum fairness (though, like usual, still able to see who voted for what after the poll is over). They would all last say one or two weeks, all running simultaneously.

For instance, taking what's already been discussed, one thread/poll might be “Should we eliminate the second Classics month?” and the options be “yes” or “no”. A second thread/poll might be “Should we combine Mystery/Crime and Thriller/Suspense into one category?” and the options be “yes” or “no”. A third thread/poll might be “Should we eliminate the Humour category?” and the options be “yes” or “no”. And so on. And they'd all be started at the same time (or within minutes of each other since you can't start them all at the exact same moment I don't think) and so all end at almost the exact same time.

All results of these polls will be final and binding for the next year.


After polls for Group A are over, we will know how many months are now free. If no months are free, then we’re done. But if some are free, now it’s time for voting on Group B (this is the point at which nominations for Group B should be ended). This one is simpler. We’d create one MULTIPLE CHOICE poll with all the options for new categories, and posters can vote for as many or as few as they like. This one would also be OPEN and not hidden since with multiple choice we can vote for as many as we like so no need for hidden. This would last say one or two weeks. Once the poll is over, however many new categories we need, that number of top vote-getters is in (for instance, if we end up with two categories removed from Group A, then we'd take the top 2 vote-getters from the poll for Group B). All results final and binding for next year.

If there is a tie for the last lucky one(s) chosen, then we could have a run-off for those tied for that last spot that is NOT multiple choice. This could last one or two weeks.

If this run-off ends in a tie, then I say Tom chooses which is used. Why not? He runs the show and we’d have to decide the tie-breaker some way. Oh yeah, and Tom should be able to vote on ALL of these polls too like the rest of us since he’s a member as much as the rest of us. So in this run-off scenario (or with a tie in any poll from Group A), I suppose a tie would mean whichever one he’s already voted for would be the winner. Again, all results final and binding for 2013.


So depending on the length of the polls, this process could take anywhere from two weeks to two months. After that, we're basically done with the categories for next year but if there’s any disagreement over which categories should go with which months we can discuss it then, after we know which categories we’ll actually have next year. And if there’s any other possible changes to discuss or vote on for the book club separate from categories, we could do it separately while this is going on.

Again, this is all just a suggestion so it's up to if you guys want to do it or not, and it can be tweaked if there's something a majority want altered with the plan, but I have put some thought into it and tried to come up with some way to fairly and easily sort this out with so many various category removal/addition options to contend with and with trying to minimise the potential for argument or hard feelings. I know the post is long but that's only because I was explaining carefully - I think it would be pretty straightforward and easy to understand if we did it. It may seem like it could be an unnecessarily drawn out way of doing it, and things have been going fairly mellowly so far, but discussion really just now started in earnest for it for 2013 and I remember how it ended up last year and I already see a little heat in posts here and there so I think some more precise process like this could be best for us. Anyway, it's a thought. What do you guys think?

Last edited by sun surfer; 10-06-2012 at 03:00 PM. Reason: refining a sentence
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by issybird View Post
No, we can't. For someone who's so fond of the rule about ebooks, you're conveniently forgetting the one that says that no changes will be made to 2012.
Actually, there is a way around that. You see, we can treat all award winners as classics. Since classic is so broad and vague, this works.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:22 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by sun surfer View Post
I was thinking about how we could possibly figure all this out about categories easily but fairly. This may sound slightly complex but it's only because I'm taking the time to explain it well and I think this could get us definitive decisions with the least amount of hard feelings or argument. It is somewhat like the way we decide monthly selections. Here’s my suggestion:


Spoiler:
First, we need two groups -

Group A) Categories we’re considering eliminating/combining
Group B) Categories we’re considering adding


We have two options for coming up with those groups -

1) We could take everything suggested in this thread.

or

2) Tom starts two nominations threads at the same time, one for Group A and one for Group B. Like regular book nominations, it could require three nominations to make something “fully nominated”. However, each poster would have unlimited nominations to use. The nominations would last until a specific date and would end up with as few or as many get fully nominated. The nominations for Group A could last say one or two weeks. The nominations for Group B, starting at the same time, could last twice as long since we won't need the results of that group as early. We could even start these nominations soon, since the process might take awhile with the longer periods for nominating/voting. And though it might crowd the stickies for a bit, all these nomination/voting threads should be stickied while in progress because they’re important for the club and so no one misses any of them.


Second, once groups are decided, we need to vote on them. I suggest we break it apart into two sections, voting on Group A first and then voting on Group B once everything about Group A is decided. Here’s what I’ve thought of as the easiest, fairest method -


For Group A, we’d use a different poll/thread for each suggestion, all started at the same time and running concurrently. This way there’d be no confusion (unlike if they were all in one poll) and would let us discuss in the threads each one separately as voting is going on. I would imagine there wouldn’t be that many options in this group, probably just a few and maybe even just one, but even if there were say 12, I think it’s important to keep a separate poll/thread for each.

There’d be no “maybe” or “I don’t care” options, just a yes/no on each poll. If people don’t care or aren’t sure then they don’t have to vote; maybes and don’t cares just cause a muddying of the waters. All the polls for Group A would be HIDDEN for maximum fairness. They would all last say one or two weeks, all running simultaneously.

For instance, taking what's already been discussed, one thread/poll might be “Should we eliminate the second Classics month?” and the options be “yes” or “no”. A second thread/poll might be “Should we combine Mystery/Crime and Thriller/Suspense into one category?” and the options be “yes” or “no”. A third thread/poll might be “Should we eliminate the Humour category?” and the options be “yes” or “no”. And so on. And they'd all be started at the same time (or within minutes of each other since you can't start them all at the exact same moment I don't think) and so all end at almost the exact same time.

All results of these polls will be final and binding for the next year.


After polls for Group A are over, we will know how many months are now free. If no months are free, then we’re done. But if some are free, now it’s time for voting on Group B (this is the point at which nominations for Group B should be ended). This one is simpler. We’d create one MULTIPLE CHOICE poll with all the options for new categories, and posters can vote for as many or as few as they like. This one would also be OPEN and not hidden since with multiple choice we can vote for as many as we like so no need for hidden. This would last say one or two weeks. Once the poll is over, however many new categories we need, that number of top vote-getters is in (for instance, if we end up with two categories removed from Group A, then we'd take the top 2 vote-getters from the poll for Group B). All results final and binding for next year.

If there is a tie for the last lucky one(s) chosen, then we could have a run-off for those tied for that last spot that is NOT multiple choice. This could last one or two weeks.

If this run-off ends in a tie, then I say Tom chooses which is used. Why not? He runs the show and we’d have to decide the tie-breaker some way. Oh yeah, and Tom should be able to vote on ALL of these polls too like the rest of us since he’s a member as much as the rest of us. So in this run-off scenario (or with a tie in any poll from Group A), I suppose a tie would mean whichever one he’s already voted for would be the winner. Again, all results final and binding for 2013.


So depending on the length of the polls, this process could take anywhere from two weeks to two months. After that, we're basically done with the categories for next year but if there’s any disagreement over which categories should go with which months we can discuss it then, after we know which categories we’ll actually have next year. And if there’s any other possible changes to discuss or vote on for the book club separate from categories, we could do it separately while this is going on.

Again, this is all just a suggestion so it's up to if you guys want to do it or not, and it can be tweaked if there's something a majority want altered with the plan, but I have put some thought into it and tried to come up with some way to fairly and easily sort this out with so many various category removal/addition options to contend with and with trying to minimise the potential for argument or hard feelings. I know the post is long but that's only because I was explaining carefully - I think it would be pretty straightforward and easy to understand if we did it. It may seem like it could be an unnecessarily drawn out way of doing it, and things have been going fairly mellowly so far, but discussion really just now started in earnest for it for 2013 and I remember how it ended up last year and I already see a little heat in posts here and there so I think some more precise process like this could be best for us. Anyway, it's a thought.
What do you guys think?
For Group "A" couldn't we just do a multi-option poll instead of 12 separate polls?
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:56 PM   #160
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What do you guys think?
It seems a well-organised, efficient system.
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:15 PM   #161
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Thanks for putting so much thought into this sun surfer. That and the additional effort to write it all out in a logical manner. I do like the idea of opening all current categories to reconsideration, no reason that just classics should be questioned. A definite endorsement of a strictly yes/no vote with none of this “I don't care” or “Maybe.” In a month we [of voting age] here in the US will be electing a president for the next four years. People will be presented with the choice of Romney/Republican, Obama/Democrat, and a number of other candidates from minor political parties to vote for. When the votes are tallied a vote for Romney will be a vote for Romney, at vote for Obama will be a vote for Obama, and a vote for anyone else (even a possible write in) will not count towards either Romney or Obama.

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For Group "A" couldn't we just do a multi-option poll instead of 12 separate polls?
I'm not sure multiple yes/no polls can be combined into a single multi-option poll.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:02 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyssa
For Group "A" couldn't we just do a multi-option poll instead of 12 separate polls?
A multi-option poll is a possibility, but here's my reasoning for suggesting individual polls for each:

-It wouldn't be much harder, if any harder at all, to create different polls all at once than to create one huge multi-option poll. In fact, individual polls would mean writing easy poll options that say "yes" and "no", whereas one big multi-option poll would require writing out the pertinent question in every option, which could actually make a multi-option poll harder to make for this than individual ones.

-One multi-option poll for various yes/no topics could be confusing, especially to more casual members who will come in and see it, no matter how well it's explained. Some may not realise they can vote for more than one option, or we could end up with the same person voting yes and no on the same question, and all that could lead to a muddying of the water. A separate poll for each is not hard and keeps things cleaner and more straightforward with less chance for objections or grumbling if a vote is close.

-Separate polls also mean separate threads so discussion on each possible change can be kept separate and easy to peruse.

-Yes 12 separate polls sound like a lot, but that's obviously only the extreme end of possibilities, though I don't rule it out. We will probably only have a few polls though, and maybe even just one. Even if we do have 12 though, it would seem better to keep them all separate rather than one massive poll with 24 options that would be ripe for voter mistakes and grumbling. For instance, I could imagine, since the vote would be hidden, after it's over and becomes visible in one huge multi-option poll, some people say they didn't realise they didn't manage to vote for one of the yes/no questions or accidentally voted yes and no for a question and now want it changed to their real choice. And you can see how this can be very muddying if the vote is close. With separate yes/no polls, all those possible problems evaporate; everyone can only choose one or the other in each poll, and know for sure when they've voted on a particular question by it saying something like "you have voted on this poll".


That all said, it's up to the consensus or what Tom wants. My thinking though is to keep the process clean and streamlined as possible with the least chances of confusion, mistakes, grumbling or argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet53
...I do like the idea of opening all current categories to reconsideration, no reason that just classics should be questioned...
Yep; if we went with option 1 of how to determine what's put to a vote, using everything suggested in this thread (starting from say thread post 138 from HomeInMyShoes), we'd already have three current categories questioned so far. If we went with option 2, a nominations thread, I'm fairly certain we'd have at least one (the second classics) and may only end up with that one or may end up with more.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:21 AM   #163
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I do like the idea of opening all current categories to reconsideration, no reason that just classics should be questioned.
Yep.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:20 PM   #164
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I think we should begin by agreeing to have 12 months in 2013 with no repeats.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:57 PM   #165
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I think we should begin by agreeing to have 12 months in 2013 with no repeats.
You got my vote!!!
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