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Old 10-05-2012, 03:18 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by kiwidude View Post
I am concerned for the mooring rope if we push it further - we do want to get the actual 0.6 release out at some point .
Forget the Rope (BTW It is Mooring 'Line' Ducks is an old Navy Guy)

Just keep the engines running
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:23 PM   #107
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@theducks - Haha I stand corrected, thankyou.

The problem with keeping the engines running is I'm not exactly sure how much petrol is left in the tank. Speaking only for myself (and user_non/meme have worked on Sigil much longer than me) mine have been running at full throttle for months, 7 days a week up to 14 hours a day. Engines need some downtime for maintenance every now and then...
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:38 PM   #108
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@theducks - Haha I stand corrected, thankyou.

The problem with keeping the engines running is I'm not exactly sure how much petrol is left in the tank. Speaking only for myself (and user_non/meme have worked on Sigil much longer than me) mine have been running at full throttle for months, 7 days a week up to 14 hours a day. Engines need some downtime for maintenance every now and then...
Indeed, you all have been running full throttle for a long time. I have wondered how you manage to have a real life what with all the frequent changelog posts I have seen! (OK, I am SO not going there...)

I'm going to hit my boss up very vehemently for donations to the crew!

ETA: The changes you'all have made and the additional features you'all have added are mind-boggling. For a long time, Sigil has been my essential epub editing tool, but these new features have honestly shaved many steps from my workflow. I started with Sigil from (I think) 0.2.x because it was the only game in town. My, how it has grown. Of course, AFAIK it is still the only game in town as a full-featured epub editor, but it continues to re-define what "full featured" really means. OK, enough fawning. ;-)

Last edited by st_albert; 10-05-2012 at 09:46 PM. Reason: further kudos
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:03 PM   #109
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ZOMG! clarification, please....


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Originally Posted by kiwidude View Post
And worst of all *if* the user does not have Tidy turned completely off, it *will* screw up your document in it's attempt to help. Pretty Print will "guess" where closing tags should be or what tags to remove. Tidy will make an even bigger mess of your HTML. You will lose content, users complain when they notice. Just because you didn't notice any issue with turning the check off, doesn't mean that (a) an issue didn't happen, or (b) that you just happened to get exceptionally lucky.
Hopefully what you mean is that, even if the user has "pretty print" enabled, the above will happen IF and ONLY IF THE USER clicks "fix automatically." If you click "fix manually" nothing much happens behind the scenes, but you are returned to the edit screen with at least a hint of what problem was detected.

In the former case, the user will reap what he has sown (perhaps there should be a warning... "Are you SURE you trust me to GUESS what you intended to do?") . In the latter case, no changes should be made, albiet the file must get fixed before another save can be made.

No time to fix it? That's why the Unix "gods" provide "xkill" and the Redmond "demi-gods" gave us the task manager. You will revert to your last saved file, but if that hurts, consider it an object lesson in learning when / when not to save files.

I kind of dislike autosave options because I like to experiment a lot with various coding before settling on an alternative. Now, if the program distinguished between autosaves and intentional saves (a la LibreOffice and many others) this would be a non-issue.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:26 PM   #110
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Load (history list) file: Discard (re-load without save) has save me more than once

I still think a save 'as is' is needed.

Kill throws out everything Good as well as Bad.

I just spent an hour stepping through a long Find/Replace or Find-Next (Skip) because the human eye -brain can make some decisions the REGEX can't when I slip up and replaced all when I should have skipped and numerous Spans need to be repaired, but hundreds are still correct
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:43 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theducks View Post
I still think a save 'as is' is needed.
It would not hurt, as long as the consequences were well understood, in the case of saving a corrupt file. (How about giving the option to rename the saved file?)

Save often, under different filenames as necessary. Especially before you try something experimental.

Then, Sigil should provide the options to "recover the crashed file" or not. In the latter case, open the last-saved, known-valid file.

JMHO!
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:23 AM   #112
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I still think a save 'as is' is needed.
Maybe not a "save as is" but rather a "dump internal datastructures to a binary format" and then a "load internal datastructures" option.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:16 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theducks View Post
@kiwidude
I am going to agree with @mmat1
There are OMG times where you just need to save because you don't have the time or place to resolve All the issues. Currently you choice is: Dump all your work (for a S&R that mucked up a dozen lines out of hundreds, that you don't have time or battery to fix NOW)
Be really obnoxious with the save failure override , it should NOT be used casually (DC: 'Mangled by: <klutz's name> )
if the feature is NOT coming back you can still put the PC into hibernation & take a break :-)
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:06 AM   #114
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>> Originally Posted by theducks View Post
>>@kiwidude
>>I am going to agree with @mmat1
>>There are OMG times where you just need to save >>because you don't have the time or place to resolve >>All the issues. Currently you choice is: Dump all your >>work (for a S&R that mucked up a dozen lines out of >>hundreds, that you don't have time or battery to fix >>NOW)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
if the feature is NOT coming back you can still put the PC into hibernation & take a break :-)
Sorry, my pc does not know what "hibernation" is ...

@kiwidude
But let me suggest something else:
If a wellformed xml is that critical, as kiwidude writes, then I want to have it checked always/permanently, as in Version 5.3.

Instead of launching an error message, you can just turn on a red lamp or another warning-sign and let the user-decide when to go to fix the issue.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:34 AM   #115
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Just to restate some earlier comments in the thread - kiwidude will correct me if I'm wrong as he's looked at this more than I have:

When the well-formed check was Off in the older versions, Sigil was actually automatically cleaning your code when it switched to Book View or Saved. So you could have potentially lost data. It was also checking if your code was well-formed too often. Sigil always cleaned your code when loading - again causing possible data loss for invalid EPUBs.

Sigil will now only check if your code is well-formed if it has to (switching to BV, saving, running certain actions). If it is not well-formed you must fix it before doing one of those actions. Saves the confusion of when to use it and wondering what its doing when off.

Saving code that is not well-formed could result in data loss when Sigil loads the EPUB again - because it cleans the code as it loads regardless of your Clean Source setting. So that's why the options are as they are, and won't change. With all the push to stop crashes and data loss, it seems obvious we also need to prevent corrupting data on save/load.

However, the question of whether or not its possible to save the code as is and pick up exactly where you left off without Sigil parsing the files is a question for later. It is not something that will be in 0.6.0. It may (or may not) be technically feasible (well, its certainly possible but its a question of how much effort it takes and how much it impacts things), but it would take time to work the details and find a way to avoid confusing users.

Last edited by meme; 10-06-2012 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:46 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st_albert View Post
ZOMG! clarification, please....

Hopefully what you mean is that, even if the user has "pretty print" enabled, the above will happen IF and ONLY IF THE USER clicks "fix automatically." If you click "fix manually" nothing much happens behind the scenes, but you are returned to the edit screen with at least a hint of what problem was detected.

In the former case, the user will reap what he has sown (perhaps there should be a warning... "Are you SURE you trust me to GUESS what you intended to do?") . In the latter case, no changes should be made, albiet the file must get fixed before another save can be made.
Yes in the case of the change being made via editing in an open tab that is the behaviour. The difference with earlier Sigil versions is that previously every time the tab lost focus it ran the check and then forced you to do something about it then and there. Which was both expensive and just plain damned annoying when you want to (for instance) copy some text from another tab or something. Now it is possible to switch to Preview View without fixing it yet, or switch away to another tab, or do a Find/Replace. It is only when you have asked Sigil to do an operation that *requires* valid xhtml that the check runs and the dialog appears. As before Fix Automatically is the "hope Tidy gets it right" option, and Fix Manually is the "leave it to me" option.

There is one notable exception to this rule which I am guessing some people don't realise, and that is the Replace All operation (and this is not new behaviour btw). Replace All works on the assumption that you don't have the file open in a tab, so it does the replacement and then it *automatically* does a clean afterwards to ensure that the resource remains valid. Hence why if for instance you do a replace all of "</p>" with "" you will see that actually the </p> tags magically came back. Of course depending on your F&R expression it could well be that the automatic clean makes other changes to your document. While it keeps Sigil structurally intact, it could have undesired effects for some scenarios. There are times where this comes in handy - one of my favourites is to get rid of pointless <span> tags from calibre conversions, as clean does a better job of matching those up than I can with a regex. However you should be aware that this behaviour happens, and if you don't trust clean then replace manually rather than using replace all. Perhaps we will offer something different around this behaviour in a future Sigil, but not for 0.6, there are only so many holes in the Sigil code colander we can plug at one time...
Quote:
I kind of dislike autosave options because I like to experiment a lot with various coding before settling on an alternative. Now, if the program distinguished between autosaves and intentional saves (a la LibreOffice and many others) this would be a non-issue.
I 100% agree - an auto-save over the top of the file isn't desired, at the very least it has to be a backup copy and as I mentioned above it really needs to be more than just a save from 5 minutes ago in terms of recovery options. It will be interesting to see what evolves on this in future.

Thanks for your other kind words btw, there can never be enough fawning in lieu of the ridiculous hours we have all spent on developing this . Every feature or change has been made because we believe the majority of users will get a positive reaction from it, be it performance, stability, productivity or just plain less annoying. So we love to hear confirmation of that especially from the long term users...
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:53 AM   #117
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Sorry, my pc does not know what "hibernation" is ...
it is configurable for most windows PCs - google it.

you can have it as an option alongside sleep, restart....

it saved all of RAM to disc so will restart with all your apps in the exact state you left them i.e. with sigil still open...

I don't like it much, as it creates ( in my case) a permanent 6GB file on disc (as I have 6GB RAM) in order to support the hibernate facility. disabling the option frees up the disc space.
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:21 AM   #118
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Well formed checks...

From the repeated posts on this subject I think there is still some misunderstandings or thoughts that 0.5.9 has taken a step backwards as far as the well formed checks go compared to say 0.5.3.

As stated previously (meme's post is 100% correct), earlier Sigil versions did *not* let you save invalid xhtml. It just gave you the illusion it was doing so because you turned the option off. All that did was stop nagging you, and meant that it would *automatically* and *silently* make changes itself to your document, which all too frequently could be detrimental resulting in lost content. Behind the scenes, the files written to disk were the result of doing a clean of the xhtml when you hit the Save button.

So turning the check off was quite frankly not a smart idea. Users did it because they were sick of the nagging dialogs interrupting something they intended to come back to. If you forgot to turn it back on, you got no warnings before hitting Save and your document got silently changed. We have removed that block - you can now do those operations like a F&R to fix things, without the risk of forgetting to turn it back on again.

And as meme also stated another clean is done when Sigil loads the ePub. Sigl *needs* valid xhtml at a whole bunch of points in its lifecycle. There are numerous components and features that cannot work unless the xhtml is valid. As I said above the Xerces library that Sigil uses will crash nastily if given invalid xhtml. If it is a choice between Sigil actually staying open and allowing the user to fix their F&R carelessness, versus intermittent and fatal crashes which result in *all* work being lost, it is a no-brainer.

To make Sigil cope with loading epubs containing invalid html (without crashing due to Xerces) is a massive change/amount of work. It may happen one day if someone tackles it though it will involve rewriting a lot of critical Sigil code, a huge amount of testing and quite possibly finding an alternative to the Xerces library. So I wouldn't hold your breath on it, there are much higher priorities for the majority of users imo, such as being able to undo Replace All operations, not throwing away unknown tags/EPUB3/HTML5 support etc.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:51 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
it is configurable for most windows PCs - google it.

you can have it as an option alongside sleep, restart....

it saved all of RAM to disc so will restart with all your apps in the exact state you left them i.e. with sigil still open...

I don't like it much, as it creates ( in my case) a permanent 6GB file on disc (as I have 6GB RAM) in order to support the hibernate facility. disabling the option frees up the disc space.
Not to derail this thread TOO much but a useful tidbit of information; if your Windows 7 machine will NOT hibernate, open an Administrator level command prompt, and type
Code:
powercfg -requests
. This will show possible devices / programs / etc that are preventing Windows from hibernating. These can then be overriden via use of
Code:
powercfg -requestsoverride
with the correct, arcane options.

One common device that prevents hibernation is the Creative X-Fi sound card.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:55 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole;2251052
it is configurable for most windows PCs - google it.
Yup, thats the problem. "Most" does not mean "all". There is some hardware dependencie.
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