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Old 10-04-2012, 11:30 AM   #16
frostschutz
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For a crispness test, you could try a test image like this http://www.musigma.nl/download/testp...n_768x1024.gif ( originally posted here http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=23 )

You should be able to make out the individual vertical/horizontal lines, the circles, and the grid around the circles, all 1 pixel wide on a 768x1024 display.

That is, unless the Kindle doesn't display images full screen. If there's a status bar or something you'll have to crop the image by whatever many pixels the Kindle wastes on that.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostschutz View Post
For a crispness test, you could try a test image like this http://www.musigma.nl/download/testp...n_768x1024.gif ( originally posted here http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=23 )

You should be able to make out the individual vertical/horizontal lines, the circles, and the grid around the circles, all 1 pixel wide on a 768x1024 display.

That is, unless the Kindle doesn't display images full screen. If there's a status bar or something you'll have to crop the image by whatever many pixels the Kindle wastes on that.
The 758x1024 looks fine and all the lines are distinguishable. I think one of differences is that the PW's surface is more matte than the Kindle 3's (I don't have a Touch so I don't know if that's any different). Matte surfaces reduce sharpness. If you also look very closely at the screen, you can also see that it seems to be more textured (probably from the matte surface or the nanoprinting).
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:45 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Canuck_in_Japan View Post
Pictures or it didn't happen.
Fair point, though made in a somewhat juvenile fashion.

Here's a shot that I' ve cropped to place PW and K3 text side by side (OK, really top-and-bottom). Top is PW and bottom is K3. This is actually an interesting comparison. Looking at "Red Book" it seems obvious that the PW (top) has the better font. It's smoother and it's clear there are more "pixels" involved. However, the K3 seems (to me) to win on crispness. But perhaps there's an explanation in that the K3 font is actually the cruder of the two, and so just appears to be crisper because it's just not as refined and smooth a font? I wonder if this is akin to lower-DPI LCDs that can appear to have sharper text because they can't smooth the font as well. While the higher-DPI LCD actually shows text better, it appears to be softer because of better smoothing.


Last edited by TXCiclista; 10-04-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:26 PM   #19
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OK, here's a cut & paste from my Amazon.com Discussions thread on the same topic:

OK, here we go. I went ahead and pulled out (almost) all the stops. This is a large file (~65Mb) that I kept at full resolution. I've color-balanced it as well, but no sharpening, straightening, etc. Converted from NEF to TIFF with no steps in between (other than color balance and cropping). I tried to make sure the light was centered over the two devices, and that I was focused on the center. This picture does a good job of representing what I see sitting in my chair under my reading light. It's clear to me here that the K3 is the winner (but it's not by as noticeable a margin as I'd originally thought). Is this perhaps all due to the PW light always being on?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1421633/PWvK3.tif
"

Last edited by TXCiclista; 10-04-2012 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:13 PM   #20
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Should've saved it as PNG, it's lossless and cuts the size to a fifth of that [still incomplete] TIFF...

For same light conditions just slap em side by side on a flatbet scanner with a black cloth (shirt or whatever) on top (and / or completely darkened room) and scan at 600-1200dpi ish. Provided the scanner can handle extra 1-2mm distance to the display without blurring it.

I actually like the left one better, finger prints and all. The kindle on the right side has formatting issues. But that's more a comparison of software and fonts than of display; for a display comparison both would have to show the exact same picture.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:31 PM   #21
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Actually, the PNG only cut the size down to 65Mb, so I figured the TIFF was as good as anything since it kept the steps to a minimum.

I tried the scanner, but it was an utter failure. The PW light overlay appears to scatter the light, so it came out looking far worse than it actually is.

You're right about comparing with the exact same image, but I'm trying to get at the somewhat subjective experience of looking at the same book within the limitations of the device. That you (and many others) still prefer the left display makes me think more and more that I'm either being overly picky or (perhaps more likely) I'm just used to the K3 and I'm interpreting the difference in the PW as somehow deficient. I'm going to stick to the PW for a week and then come back to the K# and see if I've changed my mind.

Last edited by TXCiclista; 10-04-2012 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXCiclista View Post
Here's a shot that I' ve cropped to place PW and K3 text side by side (OK, really top-and-bottom). Top is PW and bottom is K3. This is actually an interesting comparison. Looking at "Red Book" it seems obvious that the PW (top) has the better font. It's smoother and it's clear there are more "pixels" involved. However, the K3 seems (to me) to win on crispness. But perhaps there's an explanation in that the K3 font is actually the cruder of the two, and so just appears to be crisper because it's just not as refined and smooth a font?

The top one is clearly superior.
Uses more pixels, seems to have better antialiasing.

But I can see why some would prefer the more pixelated one. The straight edges of letters seem to be more clearly defined.
Amazon perhaps didn't make hinting as aggressive on PW, because there is no such urgent need for it.

When you show Windows screen to an Apple user or Apple screen to a Windows user, they are going to be dissatisfied. This is because Windows users are used to aggressively hinted fonts, while Apple antialiases at any cost. See http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/06/12.html

So, this is mainly about user preference.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:40 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by kacir View Post
The top one is clearly superior.
Uses more pixels, seems to have better antialiasing.

But I can see why some would prefer the more pixelated one. The straight edges of letters seem to be more clearly defined.
Amazon perhaps didn't make hinting as aggressive on PW, because there is no such urgent need for it.
This is helpful, thanks. I think you and many others are helping me "get at" this better. The PW has a better display, but the K3 seems "straighter." I'm still also on the fence about the always-on PW light. I'm not convinced it's not somehow washing text out a bit.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:51 PM   #24
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If you want to try different fonts, I think you can embed them now in the new format?

Maybe all it would take to make you happy is a crisper font.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:58 PM   #25
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Look at the slanted sides of the "W", in your example.

Seem like the edges of the K3 are more pixelated/jagged, which is indicative of the lesser resolution. I think that's the "straighter" effect you refer to.

However, I am surprised that the K3 does so well against the PW.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:04 PM   #26
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However, I am surprised that the K3 does so well against the PW.
Judging by comments in the Amazon forums over the past few years, I think my K3 is an unusual model. I was insistent that I get a good display (sent 3 back) and it looks like it paid off.

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Old 10-04-2012, 09:02 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by TXCiclista View Post
Fair point, though made in a somewhat juvenile fashion.

Here's a shot that I' ve cropped to place PW and K3 text side by side (OK, really top-and-bottom). Top is PW and bottom is K3. This is actually an interesting comparison. Looking at "Red Book" it seems obvious that the PW (top) has the better font. It's smoother and it's clear there are more "pixels" involved. However, the K3 seems (to me) to win on crispness. But perhaps there's an explanation in that the K3 font is actually the cruder of the two, and so just appears to be crisper because it's just not as refined and smooth a font? I wonder if this is akin to lower-DPI LCDs that can appear to have sharper text because they can't smooth the font as well. While the higher-DPI LCD actually shows text better, it appears to be softer because of better smoothing.

Yep, I agree with you - I also like the bottom one better. For lack of a better word, the top one seems too "washed out" to me. Too much antialiasing, IMO. The problem is that the letters seem to "fade out" at the edges, instead of providing a sharp cut against the background. This is all subjective, of course.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ixtab View Post
Yep, I agree with you - I also like the bottom one better. For lack of a better word, the top one seems too "washed out" to me. Too much antialiasing, IMO. The problem is that the letters seem to "fade out" at the edges, instead of providing a sharp cut against the background. This is all subjective, of course.
I also prefer the bottom; even though the bottom is more pixilated, the top to me is over anti aliased to the point of blurring. Of course it may be a different story at normal size and viewing distance.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:02 PM   #29
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If it is the cause of too much smoothing. A simple firmware update could fix that problem.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXCiclista View Post
OK, here's a cut & paste from my Amazon.com Discussions thread on the same topic:

OK, here we go. I went ahead and pulled out (almost) all the stops. This is a large file (~65Mb) that I kept at full resolution. I've color-balanced it as well, but no sharpening, straightening, etc. Converted from NEF to TIFF with no steps in between (other than color balance and cropping). I tried to make sure the light was centered over the two devices, and that I was focused on the center. This picture does a good job of representing what I see sitting in my chair under my reading light. It's clear to me here that the K3 is the winner (but it's not by as noticeable a margin as I'd originally thought). Is this perhaps all due to the PW light always being on?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1421633/PWvK3.tif
"
I had no idea the KPW showed fingerprints like that. A pearl screen with just IR touch does not show fingerprints that badly. Is this something with that unit or is this an inherent flaw in the capacitance touch layer?
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