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View Poll Results: What opinion do you have for/against Watermarks as opposed to full-scale DRMs
Both are equally BAD. 38 25.68%
Watermark is better than DRMs. 108 72.97%
DRMs is better than Watermark. 1 0.68%
Both are equally GOOD 1 0.68%
Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-03-2012, 08:58 AM   #106
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Exactly. Same sh!t but with the ability to easily transfer it to any device you want to read it on (and maybe even let your sister read it) without having to download potentially elicit software from potentially law-breaking programmers. In other words... better.
That's pretty much my opinion too. I have reservations about watermarking, but since those same reservations apply to encrypted ebooks and hasn't stopped me buying them as long as I can strip the DRM, I'd be happy with a change from encryption to social drm. I'd be happier with none at all, but I'm also a realist on occasion

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:42 PM   #107
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I personally have no problem with nonvisual Watermarks. The only people who see them are people specifically looking for them, and they do not limit the abilities of the purchaser. I have quite a few books from O'Reilly, and they have watermarks. I cannot see them, and I am not limited in what I do with them. However, there is a bit of an understanding, to where I know that if I give my books to someone else, or put them online, O'Reilly could track them back to me. Keeps me honest should I decide to do something not so honest, but if that thought never crosses my mind, neither does the one that they've done anything special to the book.

That said, I hate the visual watermarks, that cover portions of the page or images, even if they are semi transparent. They are annoying, and prohibit immersion.

On traditional DRM, I am severely limited in what OS I use, what devices I use, how many devices I use, sometimes how long I use it, etc. Basically, I, the legitimate customer, gets hamstrung while the people who pirate the content have none of these limitations. I've had it where the DRM has prevented me from playing a game I paid for, the developer refused to fix the issue with the DRM (which effected a decent sized subset of the customers), and ultimately I had to get a cracked copy of the game in order to play it. It is madness to think that they have no concern for hurting the legitimate, in their blind, vain, attempt to stop the pirates.
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:54 PM   #108
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I don't like unvisible watermark either. More on purely ethical consern. You should trust your customers.
And a visible one should be used as well, to clearly tell your curstomer you consider him a thief.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:40 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by EowynCarter View Post
I don't like unvisible watermark either. More on purely ethical consern. You should trust your customers.
And a visible one should be used as well, to clearly tell your curstomer you consider him a thief.
I think that is much too strong. Are you bothered by stores that have security cameras and tags on their merchandise? Do you feel that they consider you to be a thief when you walk into a store?

There ARE thieves around and in the end we honest buyers wind up paying the tab for the thieves in the stores and for the pirates that widely distribute the ebooks. It means companies have to charge higher prices to cover their lost sales. I don't take it personal. Blame the pirates -- not the companies that watermark digital files. Better protection that doesn't restrict me is good for me. And a watermark does not prevent any legitimate use of an ebook, unlike DRM which is a pain.

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Old 10-04-2012, 04:54 AM   #110
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I think that is much too strong. Are you bothered by stores that have security cameras and tags on their merchandise? Do you feel that they consider you to be a thief when you walk into a store?
Yes, that do bother me.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:50 AM   #111
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I think that is much too strong. Are you bothered by stores that have security cameras and tags on their merchandise? Do you feel that they consider you to be a thief when you walk into a store?
The stores that remove the tags once you've paid for the item?

If ebook stores removed the DRM/watermarks/tags once you've paid for the item, then it'd be similar, but also would then be a non issue :P

Of course the analogy doesn't work because the items are different, physical vs digital, one is trivial to copy one isn't.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:52 PM   #112
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I think that is much too strong. Are you bothered by stores that have security cameras and tags on their merchandise? Do you feel that they consider you to be a thief when you walk into a store?
If they continued the surveillance in my home, to verify that I wasn't "misusing" my purchases, I'd be greatly bothered.

Securing their property is fine. What I don't like is when sellers try to keep securing it after purchase.

Even if it's still "their property"... rental cars don't have cameras that watch you drive, nor do they track exactly where the car's driven. They don't tell you what kind of garage you can park in. They don't tell you which roads you may or may not drive on. You're required to keep the vehicle in good condition and return it promptly; how you use it, within those boundaries, is up to you.

A "leased" car that you keep forever, but is not permitted to be driven on freeways on the grounds that "it might get into an accident," would be soundly rejected as a ridiculous purchase.

Quote:
There ARE thieves around and in the end we honest buyers wind up paying the tab for the thieves in the stores and for the pirates that widely distribute the ebooks. It means companies have to charge higher prices to cover their lost sales.
There's no statistical evidence that filesharing causes lost sales. If that were true, you'd expect the most-pirated ebooks to have the lowest sales, not the other way around.
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:06 PM   #113
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I understand why security cameras are there, but I hate being observed when I really am just doing my thing. I do most of my buying on line anyway, and like elfwreck said above, I don't mind people keeping an eye on their stuff before it's been paid for. But after it's been paid for it's mine to use and my responsibility to keep the law. To be "checked up on" after the fact is an insult.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:26 PM   #114
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There's no statistical evidence that filesharing causes lost sales. If that were true, you'd expect the most-pirated ebooks to have the lowest sales, not the other way around.
I would expect best selling books and books by popular authors to be the first to be put on pirate websites myself. I believe it is still a status thing among pirates to be first to put up a sought after book, game or movie.

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Old 10-04-2012, 05:31 PM   #115
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Even if it's still "their property"... rental cars don't have cameras that watch you drive, nor do they track exactly where the car's driven.
At least in Germany, rental car owners do. I'm not saying all and it is not legal, but there have been some being caught tracking their customers.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:01 AM   #116
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How is the invisible watermark any different than a serial number? Your laptop has one, your cellphone, your car, your... well, pretty much everything. The manufacturer or the retailer cannot track your product via the serial number like GPS or anything, and neither can the publishers via the watermark. Nothing phones home. The only thing that happens, is that if the item turns up in the commission of a crime, the authorities can find out who the owner is, be it your gun or your ebook. If there was something reporting back, or anything like that, I'd be against it, but with this, it is something that is entirely passive and pretty much exactly like something already in wide spread use.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:52 AM   #117
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If they continued the surveillance in my home, to verify that I wasn't "misusing" my purchases, I'd be greatly bothered.

Securing their property is fine. What I don't like is when sellers try to keep securing it after purchase.

Even if it's still "their property"... rental cars don't have cameras that watch you drive, nor do they track exactly where the car's driven. They don't tell you what kind of garage you can park in. They don't tell you which roads you may or may not drive on. You're required to keep the vehicle in good condition and return it promptly; how you use it, within those boundaries, is up to you.

A "leased" car that you keep forever, but is not permitted to be driven on freeways on the grounds that "it might get into an accident," would be soundly rejected as a ridiculous purchase.
With a car they tell you how fast you can drive, they tell you you can't run red lights. They even limited my car's top speed to 250km, even though the engine is well capable of going faster. Apple restricts you to using only apps from their store unless you jailbreak your device.

And your leased-car contract may well forbid you to drive off-road or on non-paved roads.

You have to register your car, motor cycle, and your guns (for those among you who have any). And police will control your use of these items and trace them back to you when something happens.

Stores' supervision of you doesn't stop after you bought the item. You will still be on camera until you step outside and you will still have to walk through the "security tag detector" with your items after you paid for them.

These, like watermarks, are minor irritations we all put up with because we know, that they are not directed against us personally, but necessary because we know that not everybody is honest. It is in the interest of the honest customers that the cheaters get caught so that prices can stay low.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:23 AM   #118
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How is the invisible watermark any different than a serial number? Your laptop has one, your cellphone, your car, your... well, pretty much everything. The manufacturer or the retailer cannot track your product via the serial number like GPS or anything, and neither can the publishers via the watermark. Nothing phones home. The only thing that happens, is that if the item turns up in the commission of a crime, the authorities can find out who the owner is, be it your gun or your ebook. If there was something reporting back, or anything like that, I'd be against it, but with this, it is something that is entirely passive and pretty much exactly like something already in wide spread use.
serial numbers exists for support reason... not becasue the manufacturer don't trust thier customers.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:44 AM   #119
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serial numbers exists for support reason... not becasue the manufacturer don't trust thier customers.
They exist for tracking purposes, too. Eg, if a car is stolen, and the number plates are changed, the chassis serial number can be used to trace the legal owner.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:25 AM   #120
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How is the invisible watermark any different than a serial number? Your laptop has one, your cellphone, your car, your... well, pretty much everything. The manufacturer or the retailer cannot track your product via the serial number like GPS or anything, and neither can the publishers via the watermark. Nothing phones home. The only thing that happens, is that if the item turns up in the commission of a crime, the authorities can find out who the owner is, be it your gun or your ebook. If there was something reporting back, or anything like that, I'd be against it, but with this, it is something that is entirely passive and pretty much exactly like something already in wide spread use.
Nobody is going to copy your laptop and upload it to the internet. Dell are not going to lookup your serial number and take court action against your for copyright infringement.

In some cases, the retailer and manufacturer have no idea what the serial number was on the item they just sold to someone who either paid cash or they didn't track it anyway. Unless you register your laptop + serial number at a later date.

Watermarks could work fine, but copyright owners need to be reasonable in their actions when they do find an infringing copy with watermarks intact.

Only the retailer should be able to tie that watermark to an individual, copyright owners should have to go via the courts to get access to the information and to pursue the infringer and really there should be sufficient time spent making sure the infringer is not actually just a victim themselves of another. Which as has been discussed in many previous threads is not a simple exercise and without police involvement (which would mean making it a criminal offence which has even more implications) there's going to be people who just give in to the extortion letters despite having done no wrong because they can't afford to prove otherwise.

Reasonable, is something we've not seen happen in the past with people suspected of infringing. Letters/fines were sent to extort money or go to court based on nothing more than an IP appearing in a list. Innocent people (and in some cases printers) have been accused of copyright infringement.

I just hope retailers implement watermarks correctly. The information needs to be resistant to faking otherwise there's even more potential for innocent people to get mixed up in cases. By that I mean, retailers should use a salted one way hash of the order details. There should be no way you or anyone else can determine even if you knew what book I've bought, when, where, how much and even what the order number was, what hash should go into the book.

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