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Old 10-01-2012, 11:20 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg View Post
... As for creating bootleg LP's, I'm 57 years old and never heard of this, but it sounds like the kind of theft a rich toff would engage in, while the poor fellow was slipping a 45* into his jacket.

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* P.S.: 45 RPM record intended! We're in a gun-free school zone here, I hope.
Actually bootleg LPs were (and as CDs/mp3s etc are still) a thriving sub-culture and had nothing to do with "rich toffs" but people recording live performances, getting hold of studio recordings and access to mixing decks at live shows... these were then mastered, pressed and sold like the record companies did but on a smaller scale... and they weren't cheap but usually came in at the high-end of LP pricing... many rapidly became collectables and are worth a lot of money now whilst others were later released by artists such as Dylan... lot of this sounds familiar with some of the stuff going on these days... and was about as legal with some people getting caught by court action etc...
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:21 PM   #32
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I don't believe in prison time for what essentially amount to victimless crimes. If you want to go after people civilly, fine, but prison time for sharing some files or copyright infringement is beyond the pale.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:24 PM   #33
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I don't believe in prison time for what essentially amount to victimless crimes. If you want to go after people civilly, fine, but prison time for sharing some files or copyright infringement is beyond the pale.
Have to agree, the exception being people who actually sell files of things they don't have any rights to... of course there is then the problem that civil law generally has a lower level of proof required and certainly shouldn't involve the type of blackmail threats being used by some enforcers...
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:59 AM   #34
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Actually bootleg LPs were (and as CDs/mp3s etc are still) a thriving sub-culture and had nothing to do with "rich toffs" but people recording live performances, getting hold of studio recordings and access to mixing decks at live shows... these were then mastered, pressed and sold like the record companies did but on a smaller scale... and they weren't cheap but usually came in at the high-end of LP pricing... many rapidly became collectables and are worth a lot of money now whilst others were later released by artists such as Dylan... lot of this sounds familiar with some of the stuff going on these days... and was about as legal with some people getting caught by court action etc...


I did see the huge number of bootlegs cassettes that flooded Flea Markets and later bootlegs CDs - but never vinyl.

I am someone who was once half owner (financed a sibling into it) of a Music Store (seventies) and who has collected several thousand LPs over several decades - often from Flea Markets, thrift shops and classified ads - but have never been offered bootleg vinyl. Bootleg cassettes, and CD/DVDs yes, but never LPs. The production costs for a short run would kill any potential profit.

I am not disputing that they existed - out of China and Russia certainly, but they were so rare that a dedicated collector like myself has never seen one.
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Old 10-02-2012, 02:03 AM   #35
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I don't believe in prison time for what essentially amount to victimless crimes. If you want to go after people civilly, fine, but prison time for sharing some files or copyright infringement is beyond the pale.
How about for counterfeiting money? That is just as much a (not) victim-less crime as counterfeiting anything else.

If it is a crime, then there are victims. Some of those victims might not engender as much sympathy as others.
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Old 10-02-2012, 03:17 AM   #36
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I have a feeling that most people equate copyright infringement with something akin to cheating on your taxes, you get away with it 90% of the time as long as it isn't something massive. Tax authorities will dole out some wrist slaps and get a lot of publicity for it so the action will inhibit those in doubt. Tax authorities are acutely aware that putting tax evaders in prison is essentially a loss-loss situation, no tax income from that individual but expenditures for the state.
I believe the Japanese government instituted these new draconian laws with the explicit intent to create some high visibility "wrist slapping", they will go after young punks, already living on the edge of society, already committing hard to prove crimes but being sloppy downloaders of free digital content. They caught Al Capone on tax fraud, this is most likely something similar.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:04 AM   #37
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While I agree with you that this is truly draconian, I must respectfully disagree with you that "a slap on the wrist" is sufficient. A fine needs to be large enough to be a serious disincentive to commit the offence in the first place. My local subway system fines you 50x the price of a ticket if you're caught travelling without one, and that seems to me to be of the right order of magnitude to discourage it - say a $500 for downloading an item with a $10 retail value.
I agree with you on the amount.

But there is always the same problem: while if you're caught without your ticket in the tube, you're actually using it, nobody can prove that, having downloaded a book, you're actually reading it.
In other words, I completely agree with a disincentivation of reading "illegal" books, but, in my opinion, the mere occupation of some disk space is not at all the same thing.
The simple possession of a digital copy of a book does not harm the author nor the publisher. It's the actual access to the content that do the harm.
So, I'm OK with a 50x fine, as long as the actual reading of the book is proved beyound any reasonable doubt.
If not, it's like to arrest somebody on the scene of a crime without any evidence he actually committed it, so it's a big NO.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:50 AM   #38
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It needs to be more in line with what you would get for a similar offence with a physical item (excluding when the government orders magistrates to set an example). Anything else is just silly.
There's a problem there though. The scales of volume are entirely different with copyright infringement.

Take speeding fines (afaik you get one fine per journey, not one per camera you've sped through), with shop lifting, most people take a single or few items in one go (ignoring mass scale theft which is a totally different punishment)

With copyright infringement someone can download 100's or 1000's of files in a single evening, or numerous files every night. If fines are per item or per offence, the fines would be anything but reasonable.

If the fines are for all activity up to the point the fine is issued, then arguably it'd be too small, unless the fine can be increased for repeat offences with the potential of a court case where much higher fines can be applied.

I really don't see an easy answer to this. There needs to be something to discourage people. It needs to be sufficient to do so, without been blindly applied such that it impacts people who are otherwise honest and have been taken advantage of, their machine used by friends, wifi used or simply didn't realise the site was infringing. In those cases, a small fine could be a sufficient annoyance to make those people look at why and stop it. Problem is, it's likely not sufficient for everyday downloaders who know full well what they're doing. Very difficult balance imo.
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:06 AM   #39
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How about for counterfeiting money? That is just as much a (not) victim-less crime as counterfeiting anything else.

If it is a crime, then there are victims. Some of those victims might not engender as much sympathy as others.
Counterfeiting money or other items DOES have a victim. The person who ends up receiving those goods believing they're real.

There's no point making fake money unless you intend to spend it, moment you do that, you create a victim.

With fake goods, I'm either way on the issue. If you make a fake gucci bag and then sell it on as though it's the real thing, you've created a victim. If you make a fake gucci bag for yourself and never pass it on then imo there isn't a victim.

Copyright infringement should only involve jail time for cases of commercial infringement, by that I mean, selling pirated goods such as DVD/BR/CDs and that should imo include running ads on websites that offer pirated material. Fines (still open to debate how much/how it'd be applied) should be sufficient for everyone else.

It gets a little more grey when it comes to locker storage sites, but if the sites don't promptly follow take-down requests then I think it should apply to their owners too. If they do follow take-downs and take reasonable actions to prevent someone signing up again (e.g not allowing the same address/payment to be used) then I don't think it should. Due to the scale though, the cost of a full blown court case would be reasonable and both sides would at least have the opportunity to show how much or little the owners tried to prevent abuse of their service.

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Old 10-02-2012, 08:20 AM   #40
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I did see the huge number of bootlegs cassettes that flooded Flea Markets and later bootlegs CDs - but never vinyl.

I am someone who was once half owner (financed a sibling into it) of a Music Store (seventies) and who has collected several thousand LPs over several decades - often from Flea Markets, thrift shops and classified ads - but have never been offered bootleg vinyl. Bootleg cassettes, and CD/DVDs yes, but never LPs. The production costs for a short run would kill any potential profit.

I am not disputing that they existed - out of China and Russia certainly, but they were so rare that a dedicated collector like myself has never seen one.
Actually, in the 60's-70's there were probably thousands, I had twenty to thirty alone, all vinyl LPs, but wouldn't be the least surprised at few if any making it to Oz... There were at least twenty-thirty for Jefferson Airplane/Starship (I had 5-6), countless for Dylan (I had 3-4) and innumerable for the Greatful Dead who sort of encouraged the taping of their live shows and release on vinyl from fans. Profit was never a part of this scene, it was fannish dedication and they most certainly didn't come from China/Russia, they were made in the US primarily and some in the UK.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:02 AM   #41
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Japanese tax payers must be dancing in the streets at the thought of paying for all those millions of extra prison places they'll need. I can see America copying the idea though, they run their prisons at a profit.
A profit? Which America is that one, clearly not the one here on planet Earth.

To run at a profit, the prisoners would have to earn more than it costs to keep them. That does not happen. Private prisons are still paid for out of taxes.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:39 AM   #42
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I agree with you on the amount.

But there is always the same problem: while if you're caught without your ticket in the tube, you're actually using it, nobody can prove that, having downloaded a book, you're actually reading it.
In other words, I completely agree with a disincentivation of reading "illegal" books, but, in my opinion, the mere occupation of some disk space is not at all the same thing.
The simple possession of a digital copy of a book does not harm the author nor the publisher. It's the actual access to the content that do the harm.
So, I'm OK with a 50x fine, as long as the actual reading of the book is proved beyound any reasonable doubt.
If not, it's like to arrest somebody on the scene of a crime without any evidence he actually committed it, so it's a big NO.
We could go a bit further and say that we should only have to pay for books that we have read and enjoyed. Of course this would bring the honor system into play, and if we are going to use that we might as well just do away with copyright and go donation based.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #43
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A profit? Which America is that one, clearly not the one here on planet Earth.

To run at a profit, the prisoners would have to earn more than it costs to keep them. That does not happen. Private prisons are still paid for out of taxes.
They certainly provide healthy profits for the companies running them, in part exactly because inmates are forced to work, while being paid essentially nothing (some 25c/hr I believe). Slave labour, essentially. Collectively, private prisons are the largest electronics manufacturers in the US and amongst other things supply the US military with advanced electronics for Patriot missiles and other missile systems.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:18 AM   #44
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My heart would bleed for the music industry if it was not for the fact that they have the BIGGEST number of CROOKS to grace the earth working in it .For decades these so called business men have been ripping of bands and artists with legalized slavery as PRINCE once put it, and screwing over both talented people creating music as well as overcharging customers for there products.

There's a long list of famous bands that have been screwed over by record labels and of course it's all legal and above board so its ok

In my books there's only one thing worse than crime and that's LEGALIZED CRIME
Just because somethings is legal it DOES NOT MAKE IT RITE.

360 Deals
If anyone needed further evidence that the major labels are in league with the devil about 5 years ago record labels started making new artists sigh contracts termed - 360 deals.

Driven by smaller PROFIT MARGINS record companies are requiring new artists to sign these contracts (also known as -multiple rights deals) that take a percentage of every single thing the artist does: merchandising, ticket sales, paid appearances, interviews. Any band which signs such a deal is sighing most of there current and future income away to the record label.

For decades, record companies have been content to steal the creative products of musicians. Not only do they typically take ownership of the songs through owning the recording master as well as the lucrative copyright and publishing, but they charge the artist for the costs of production, artwork, manufacturing, publicity and anything tangentially related to the album.

Prince famously wrote “slave” on his face during his lawsuit with Warner Bros. to protest this kind of treatment. But 360 deals make these old arrangements seem downright generous

Capitol Music Group CEO Jason Flom, in one youtube video, arrogantly justifies 360 deals by claiming that “nobody knows who they [artists] are” and “we turn them into stars.”

That’s a little disingenuous, since major labels typically don’t sign artists unless they have a successful track record selling CDs and concert tickets. He laughingly acknowledges that any of today’s superstars would scoff at signing such a deal (although Madonna and Jay-Z already have).

But don’t expect a new artist to get a break upon becoming tomorrow’s superstar. At best, the artist would be able to negotiate a lower percentage of the 360 deal, as attorney Kendall Minter describes in the YouTube video below.

http://youtu.be/6dJhsfjKgQ4

My advise is to stop listening to the men with the money & power as they live a life of smoke and mirrors and carry out on a day to day basis legalized crime so you cant trust a word there saying.

Today in japan people can be arrested for sharing media ,BUT who knows what other miner crime they could be arrested for in the future to protect some multi-billion dollar industry.

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:05 PM   #45
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never LPs. The production costs for a short run would kill any potential profit.
A lot of bands in the late 1970s printed their production costs on the back of their records to encourage other bands to release their own records. Obviously those figures are out of date now, but they weren't particularly high. And bootleg records, because of their relative scarcity, tended to cost more to buy than "normal" records.
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