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Old 10-01-2012, 04:52 PM   #16
teh603
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Originally Posted by Kumabjorn View Post
@HarryT
Fansubbing appeals to a limited segment of society. Yes, it is piracy if using a strict definition. But since no one else is offering these shows to people who want to watch it, there is no real economical loss to the copyright holder. The shows I have looked at has all been horrible in their translation, so I turned it off in less than 10 minutes.
Exactly. An ethical fansubber won't keep anything up that's commercially available. Not all of them are ethical, but that's a discussion for another time.

The thing is, either the anime is out of print (and thus no loss to the rights holders) or not licensed for distribution outside of Japan (still no loss to the rights holders), or unavailable in an unaltered state (ditto). This is a move by various groups to get their old and much-abused role as gatekeepers back.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:20 PM   #17
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While I agree with you that this is truly draconian, I must respectfully disagree with you that "a slap on the wrist" is sufficient. A fine needs to be large enough to be a serious disincentive to commit the offence in the first place. My local subway system fines you 50x the price of a ticket if you're caught travelling without one, and that seems to me to be of the right order of magnitude to discourage it - say a $500 for downloading an item with a $10 retail value.
It needs to be more in line with what you would get for a similar offence with a physical item (excluding when the government orders magistrates to set an example). Anything else is just silly.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:23 PM   #18
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Yes - adding subtitles to a copyrighted work, and uploading it to the internet. One can hardly blame the copyright holder for wishing to prevent this, can one? It's piracy, pure and simple. (Although it doesn't merit a prison sentence, IMHO.)
Couldn't they just distribute the subtitle file so that people can build it into their (bought) DVD original?
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:36 PM   #19
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...or not licensed for distribution outside of Japan (still no loss to the rights holders), or unavailable in an unaltered state (ditto)
I suppose they could argue that it hurts them when trying to eventually sell those rights outside of Japan if there is already a fansub. As to if it really does or not I don't know.

In the old days fansub groups stopped distroing tapes (for no profit) once it was announed an anime had been licensed. That's happening less and less and even when it does the digital files are out in the wild and you can't really stop their availability and it's much easier to copy a digital file than it is a tape.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:39 PM   #20
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This shows what happens when there is too much power on one side of the scales, an almost Orwellian law is passed. Japan may become heaven for corporations that want power and money, decide who reads, listens to or watch what and where and at what price.
This is the system that some defend, a system where money is the absolute ruler. Today if you pay, you may read, listen to or watch, tomorrow: eat, after tomorrow: live

(oh wait, eat but only if you got the money for it is already something of "today")
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:39 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mr ploppy View Post
Couldn't they just distribute the subtitle file so that people can build it into their (bought) DVD original?
That would mean waiting until the DVD releases, then usually paying import charges, waiting for it to pass through customs...

And not all anime producers allow exporting of their works without official dubs/subs in the first place.

What I've never understood is why companies don't just hire the best of the fansubbers, so they can monetize what is otherwise (mostly) harmless copyright infringement.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:33 PM   #22
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Well, there was a time when having the wrong book meant you were burned at the stake.

It was a pretty good disincentive. No one ever repeated their crime.
Even if they hadn't committed the crime in the first place.
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Old 10-01-2012, 07:31 PM   #23
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Well, there was a time when having the wrong book meant you were burned at the stake.

It was a pretty good disincentive. No one ever repeated their crime.
That will be next up and probably most favoured by the likes of the MPAA and RIAA.

Seriously though, 2 years gaol time? Puts it right up there with scum who push drugs, rapists, rob banks and those who assault people.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:45 PM   #24
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Copyright infringement is not piracy. Copyright infringement is copying and/or distributing copyright material. Piracy is selling copyright material without permission. People used to sell fake-DVDs. That is piracy. The vast majority of those who engage in copyright infringement do not profit from it, often quite the opposite.

Equating downloading a copy of a file to theft is quite ridiculous. One deprives someone of the use of the object in question, the other merely duplicates an electronic file. This is claimed to be a loss but that is only true if the infringer would otherwise always have purchased a copy. It is reasonable to conclude that this is not the case in all instances.

I really wish people would think about this issue in a somewhat rational fashion without swallowing wholesale the propaganda. There is a fundamental difference between actual property and so-called intellectual property. One has a finite existence, the other less so.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:06 PM   #25
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I think this issue is a class thing. Book shoplifting = lower class. Jail is fine for them -- at least if repeat offenders -- even though most books at Barnes and Noble are destined to be pulped, so stealing them deprives no one of anything. By contrast, book piracy = upper middle class. So punishing them is a horror, and, unlike with every other kind of stealing, conviction should require a showing of harm.

This is not to defend the Japanese law, which I do consider draconian. It's so draconian that I doubt it will be enforced. Cutting off internet access would make the punishment fit the crime.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:19 PM   #26
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No. It's simply an illogical conflation of two concepts because people are inherently more open to copyright infringement than to theft. Copying has always been generally acceptable from recording TV shows on VCR (and now DVR boxes) to recording songs from the radio to creating bootleg LPs and so on. Theft on the other hand is acceptable behaviour to very few people. Therefore a simple but stupid way to change the public's attitude to copying is to claim that all such copying is theft.

Copyright infringement is illegal but let's not go crazy.

Last edited by corroonb; 10-01-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:30 PM   #27
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Theft on the other hand is acceptable behaviour to very few people. Therefore a simple but stupid way to change the public's attitude to copying is to claim that all such copying is theft.
Likewise, a way to change the public's attitude to copyright infringement is to claim that it isn't theft. Perhaps to describe it with an innocuous term like "sharing."
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:32 PM   #28
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Likewise, a way to change the public's attitude to copyright infringement is to claim that it isn't theft. Perhaps to describe it with an innocuous term like "sharing."
Black and white.

Unfortunately life is a multitude of shades between those two.

Throwing one time infringers in the slammer along with rapist and drug scum is NOT going to solve a damn thing.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:39 PM   #29
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Likewise, a way to change the public's attitude to copyright infringement is to claim that it isn't theft. Perhaps to describe it with an innocuous term like "sharing."
No. The correct way is not to pander, mislead or condescend but to explain clearly and unemotionally what copyright infringement is and what it is not, what the costs are and to have a proper discussion about the concept of copyright in a digital era.

A lot of these problems have arisen because the content distributors simply do not want to reconsider their business model in the light of such massive technological and cultural change. NetFlix and such one charge, unlimited content services are the future of electronic content but the big companies are extremely resistant to applying this simple idea more widely. Digital distribution should be about services not content.

Threats and draconian actions will not help.

This is a good article in the New York Times by a law professor about the difference between theft and copying:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/29/op...2&ref=opinion&

Last edited by corroonb; 10-01-2012 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:20 PM   #30
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A lot of these problems have arisen because the content distributors simply do not want to reconsider their business model in the light of such massive technological and cultural change. NetFlix and such one charge, unlimited content services are the future of electronic content but the big companies are extremely resistant to applying this simple idea more widely.
In the book arena, which is the one I'm interested in, we already have the NetFlix model on steroids with public libraries. Creating a situation in which, on top of this, readers could get almost any book in the non-DRM form-factor of their choice, and at NetFlix like prices, would result in even lower advances for authors -- who already, with extremely few exceptions, have low incomes.

Quote:
Threats and draconian actions will not help.
I actually agree. Mild sanctions are more likely to help.

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Copying has always been generally acceptable from recording TV shows on VCR (and now DVR boxes) to recording songs from the radio to creating bootleg LPs and so on. Theft on the other hand is acceptable behaviour to very few people.
It all depends on how you define theft. If you google these terms, and page through the results, you will find a whole bunch of countries mentioned:

"cheating on taxes" "national pastime"

I'd say that there are, in most countries, only a minority of teenagers who never once engage in theft, however you define it. My claim is that most people occasionally engage in some form of theft, and we should discourage this without ruining their lives.

In most languages, there are few eBooks. In most countries, there are few eReaders. So I'm guessing most books are still stolen the old fashioned way.

As for music, in living memory, almost all the theft was probably in form of sneaking into live performances. This is mildly wrong but still wrong.

Lastly, the copying gadgets. Most people in the world, even if they have televisions, don't have copying gadgets. As for creating bootleg LP's, I'm 57 years old and never heard of this, but it sounds like the kind of theft a rich toff would engage in, while the poor fellow was slipping a 45* into his jacket.

________________
* P.S.: 45 RPM record intended! We're in a gun-free school zone here, I hope.

Last edited by SteveEisenberg; 10-01-2012 at 10:23 PM.
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