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Old 09-27-2012, 09:12 PM   #196
Jozawun
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So what's your evidence for this??? You keep challenging everyone else's lack of evidence for their claims/comments but haven't produced any evidence to support your contrarian position...
You have got to be kidding.
As a logical proposition, yours is a schoolboy howler.
From memory, the fallacy is formally called something like "shifting the burden of proof".
But you can probably look it up under "Fallacies" in Wikipedia or the like.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:13 PM   #197
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I agree with that last.

For example, you can argue that if pizza was given away, pizza chefs would make at least the same amount of money, because of all the people who would donate cash, and the possibility the government would step in and compensate pizza creators. I don't believe it. Do you?

Now, actually, there are a few chefs who live on donations, such as in connection with churches. And, getting closer to books, maybe calibre creator Kovid Goyal is doing OK, although I wouldn't count on it. But being able to live on donations is unusual, because the supply of generous people is limited. If the generality of chefs give away their services, the generality of chefs will, in the US, livie on food stamps, and, in many other countries, starve.

P.S. Re Mr. Goyal, he also has a special situation because cost of living in his country (India) is much lower than in the countries where his software is mostly used (US, Britain, Canada, Australia). But most authors primarily write for people in their own country.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, in other words, just be nice to everyone and things will work out.

Why do people starve? Because they cannot afford bread? Why are we charging for bread? Why do we continue to support a system that allows for the charging of bread?
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:15 PM   #198
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I'm almost always prepared to do that with any issue.
Woosah.
Me too (most of the time), anything for a quiet life.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:34 PM   #199
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The French Revolution did away with copyright, and virtually nothing new was published until it was brought back. That's pretty compelling support to most people: it's been tried, and produced the expected results.
First, I've seen this statement before. I don't know whether it's true or not: I understood that in the early 1790s legislation was passed expressly protecting the rights of authors. But I stand to be corrected.

As to whether the absence of copyright stops authors from writing, Dickens and the other great 19th century English writers kept churning out classics despite the fact that their works were "pirated" holus bolus throughout the USA, where copyright protection was either non-existent, minimal, or simply not enforced. Ditto American authors such as Twain despite similar problems with Canadian publishers.

I don't say any of them liked it; but they kept writing.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:10 PM   #200
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I understood that in the early 1790s legislation was passed expressly protecting the rights of authors.
That's true. They brought it back, albeit with a revolutionary spin. But before that, there was the abolition of privileges, August 4, 1789.

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As to whether the absence of copyright stops authors from writing, Dickens and the other great 19th century English writers kept churning out classics despite the fact that their works were "pirated" holus bolus throughout the USA, where copyright protection was either non-existent, minimal, or simply not enforced.
There's always been some taking of reading material without paying for it, whether through piracy or shoplifting. Obviously a lot of outstanding books will get created with copyright limited to the creator's country.

Dickens did make a nice income, and only tended to be short of money due to lack of thrift (and willingness to give money to friends and family).

For this purpose, Dickens = J.K. Rowlings. Suppose an American on this board was to say that because Rowlings makes so much money already, they aren't going to pay for her books. If someone said that Rowlings is the only author they will pirate, I wouldn't have a super-strong argument against it. But what I think happens next is that they start thinking all authors on the best-seller list are as rich as Dickens, which is far from true.

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I don't say any of them liked it; but they kept writing.
I personally don't think keeping on writing, defined as sheer number of words written, should be the criteria . Maybe if Dickens had used a financial cushion from US copyright income to spend 50 percent more time on each book, they would have been, although fewer, even better. And in the case of non-fiction, authors without advances almost surely do less research requiring distant travel.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:18 PM   #201
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Crikey, Steve!
So we're now saying that copyright results in fewer books. But better books.

(It also occurs to me that any drop-off in French Book publishing between 1789-1793 may not be solely attributable to copyright issues, eg the trimming of the aristo market by emigration and decapitation (that'll slow down your reading); the fact that all of the bourgeoisie were busy writing and reading pamphlets and monopolising the printing presses; and the fact that Madame Defarge and her chums stopped reading Mills & Boon while they engaged in more engrossing interactive pursuits).

Last edited by Jozawun; 09-27-2012 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Added some
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:46 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Jozawun View Post
You have got to be kidding.
As a logical proposition, yours is a schoolboy howler.
From memory, the fallacy is formally called something like "shifting the burden of proof".
But you can probably look it up under "Fallacies" in Wikipedia or the like.
Hardly... just thought that we might get equal time here but looks like it's the usual one-sided approach... your position is axiomatic but anything different must be proved by others... love your fallacy of not bothering with the burden of proof...
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:08 PM   #203
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Hardly... just thought that we might get equal time here but looks like it's the usual one-sided approach... your position is axiomatic but anything different must be proved by others... love your fallacy of not bothering with the burden of proof...
What exactly is Jozawun's stated position that needs to be proven? Did I miss it?

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Old 09-28-2012, 12:47 AM   #204
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What exactly is Jozawun's stated position that needs to be proven? Did I miss it?
Yes! I read his comments running through the thread and he seems opposed to any statement made without citations but OK with making statements himself equally without citing any evidentiary support... position spread over several posts but I guess I could have read too much into his postings and should maybe just accept them as being fundamental truths whilst doubting all other comments...
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:22 AM   #205
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Yes! I read his comments running through the thread and he seems opposed to any statement made without citations but OK with making statements himself equally without citing any evidentiary support... position spread over several posts but I guess I could have read too much into his postings and should maybe just accept them as being fundamental truths whilst doubting all other comments...
I think that would be the best way to go.
Love your name, too, it certainly sums up your approach to logic.
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:03 AM   #206
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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, in other words, just be nice to everyone and things will work out.

Why do people starve? Because they cannot afford bread? Why are we charging for bread? Why do we continue to support a system that allows for the charging of bread?
Isn't that the basic premise of communism? You know, the social and political system that completely, totally, utterly failed?

Just be nice to the next mugger who wants you wallet. I'm sure everything will work out.
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:09 AM   #207
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[QUOTE=Jozawun;2239665]First, I've seen this statement before.[QUOTE]

Your ignorance of the subject is not my problem. If you want to argue a subject, you should learn about it first. (I'm not the only one to mention this, in this thread, after all.)
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:10 AM   #208
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Crikey, Steve!
So we're now saying that copyright results in fewer books. But better books.
No, nobody is saying that.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:12 AM   #209
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I think that would be the best way to go.
Love your name, too, it certainly sums up your approach to logic.
I dispute that "think" describes what you do, but that pretty well sums up why I, and likely most others, except Giggles, don't take you seriously.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:43 AM   #210
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Just plain false, this is precisely what SteveEisenberg said in the last para of post #200.
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