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Old 09-27-2012, 06:30 AM   #76
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How can Amazon and the purchaser of the book both own the book concurrently?
Once the book is on Amazon's page, it's on their server. Therefore the ebook belongs to them. Paperbacks are different.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:34 AM   #77
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When you buy an ebook from Amazon, you specifically agree that they do. If you lie when you do that, you are a liar and a fraud.
Indeed, perhaps it is Amazon itself which is the liar and the fraud.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:49 PM   #78
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In case you missed it last time. Just because a seller claim something like that you are not buying something does not make it true.
It all depends on how the contrat is written. A couple of years ago, I'd have agreed in Amazon's case. Now, not so much. The terms of the sale make it quite clear it's a license, not a sale of goods. If you don't read the contract, it's your problem, not theirs.

That's the reason I don't buy ebooks from Amazon.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:50 PM   #79
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Once the book is on Amazon's page, it's on their server. Therefore the ebook belongs to them. Paperbacks are different.
It's possible to lease or license a book without buying it, too. By Giggle's logic, if you lease a car, you're not repsonsible for ever taking it back.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:51 PM   #80
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Indeed, perhaps it is Amazon itself which is the liar and the fraud.
Quite possibly, but they don't lie in their terms of service on ebooks.

And that doesn't change the simple fact that if you agree to a contract that you have no intention of living up to, you're a liar and fraud.
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Old 09-27-2012, 04:25 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by taustin View Post
It all depends on how the contrat is written. A couple of years ago, I'd have agreed in Amazon's case. Now, not so much. The terms of the sale make it quite clear it's a license, not a sale of goods. If you don't read the contract, it's your problem, not theirs.

That's the reason I don't buy ebooks from Amazon.
I'm curious as to where you buy them from that does not make it clear that all you're getting is a license. As far as I know, all sites that sell ebooks have basically the same terms. Do you know of one that is different?

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Old 09-27-2012, 04:33 PM   #82
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I'm curious as to where you buy them from that does not make it clear that all you're getting is a license. As far as I know, all sites that sell ebooks have basically the same terms. Do you know of one that is different?

Shari
In fact, as far as I know, only Amazon has terms that specifically allow them to remove stuff from your reader after you've already downloaded it. There's a reason they've included that, namely, they demonstrated the ability to do so by doing so a few years back, and if they have the ability, they are required to do so under certain circumstances, so the terms need to address it.
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:39 PM   #83
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Let them try to remove the content from my Nook.
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:44 PM   #84
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Let them try to remove the content from my Nook.
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There's obviously some ability to do so - you remove stuff you bought through B&N by archiving it on their web site, after all - but it works a little differently, and it's not all that clear to me that actually removes it from the device.

The important thing, though, is that with Amazon, it's covered explicitly in the terms, and legally, I expect that will matter if it ever gets reviewed by a court. To be a "sale of goods," generaly, there needs to a single payment for an indefinite term of use. The first, a Kindle book has, the second, that particular term says no, you don't have.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:31 PM   #85
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In fact, as far as I know, only Amazon has terms that specifically allow them to remove stuff from your reader after you've already downloaded it. There's a reason they've included that, namely, they demonstrated the ability to do so by doing so a few years back, and if they have the ability, they are required to do so under certain circumstances, so the terms need to address it.
I just read the terms, and couldn't find that in there anywhere. I know the case you're talking about, and I believe that the terms were changed after that. The closest I can find to what you are alluding to is this:

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Termination. Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement. In case of such termination, you must cease all use of the Kindle Store and the Kindle Content, and Amazon may immediately revoke your access to the Kindle Store and the Kindle Content without refund of any fees. Amazon's failure to insist upon or enforce your strict compliance with this Agreement will not constitute a waiver of any of its rights.
What they're saying is that if you break your contract with them (violate the terms of service in any way) then they will close your account, and you will lose access to the books that are stored in the cloud. Smashwords and Barnes and Noble have similar provisions in their terms of service.

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Old 09-27-2012, 07:47 PM   #86
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I just read the terms, and couldn't find that in there anywhere. I know the case you're talking about, and I believe that the terms were changed after that. The closest I can find to what you are alluding to is this:


What they're saying is that if you break your contract with them (violate the terms of service in any way) then they will close your account, and you will lose access to the books that are stored in the cloud. Smashwords and Barnes and Noble have similar provisions in their terms of service.

Shari
Why do we need a TOS when we purchase a book? It is ludicrous and absurd.

I purchase a book, and I am able to do whatever I wish to with that book, regardless of Amazon's views on the matter. If I pay for content/ideas then those ideas are now under my possession. I did not create those ideas (no one can create) but they are my ideas. Amazon did not create those ideas either, Amazon is a temporary holder of ideas/content, nothing more than a technological device to enable the distribution of content. Amazon has no valid or legal argument that can stop anyone from reselling any content that they obtain through Amazon.

I am not advocating piracy.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:49 PM   #87
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Why do we need a TOS when we purchase a book? It is ludicrous and absurd.
Then don't do business with those who require one. Agreeing to terms you don't intend to live up to makes you a liar and a fraud.

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I purchase a book,
There's your error. With Amazon, you don't purchase it, you license it.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:52 PM   #88
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Then don't do business with those who require one. Agreeing to terms you don't intend to live up to makes you a liar and a fraud.

There's your error. With Amazon, you don't purchase it, you license it.
The licensing of idea transmission, taken to its logical conclusion, a pay per read scheme is an extremely bad idea. If Amazon's TOS is immoral, which it is, we can simply ignore their TOS and purchase and resell the content we obtain through them, just as we have been doing with content for the last 5000 or so years.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:54 PM   #89
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I am not advocating piracy.
In fact, you are. Rather explicity. With a public statement that you believe the law does not apply to you.
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:56 PM   #90
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I just read the terms, and couldn't find that in there anywhere. I know the case you're talking about, and I believe that the terms were changed after that.
I haven't kept up with changes (there are other reasons I don't buy ebooks from Amazon, starting with the fact that I don't much like their devices). The news coverage at the time quoted the new verbiage. There was a lawsuit over the fact that they had said, publicly, more than once, that once you buy something, it's yours, and that they did not have the ability to remove stuff remotely. Then they removed stuff remotely. Perhaps the newer devices don't have the ability, and they no longer feel that the terms need to include that.
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