Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > E-Book General > General Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-31-2012, 09:03 AM   #46
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 65,443
Karma: 43770933
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Voyage, iPad Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, N7
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrucci View Post
I believe that editors and proof readers are of great value. However, this is an age of businesses being run on thin margins, and one in which most people couldn't care less about grammar.
Most people who read books (and they are certainly a minority of the general population, I agree) do care about it, I think.
HarryT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 09:08 AM   #47
petrucci
Groupie
petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.petrucci ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 198
Karma: 1647827
Join Date: Jun 2011
Device: Kindle Paperwhite
Well, the beauty of e-books and crowd sourcing is that once an error has been found and reported, it can be fixed and the book can be republished.
petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 12:24 PM   #48
Catlady
Wizard
Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Catlady ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Catlady's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,138
Karma: 9183944
Join Date: Oct 2010
Device: jetBook Lite, Libre Color
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvReadin View Post
Based on the reviews I've seen posted over the past few years, you're correct. Although I'm not sure that I'd describe these as 'grammar vigilantes', it is true that people seem to be becoming more vigilant about grammar. My personal feeling is that it was something many readers never really 'saw' until it wasn't there. At that point, they realised quite how awful an experience it is to wade through reams of badly spelt, badly punctuated and badly structured sentences. No matter how good the story, I think it's very difficult for a reader to overcome a feeling of being short-changed if they've been made to work hard get anything out of a product on which they have spent time and (possibly) money.
Correct grammar and punctuation aren't just little niceties; they make the story understandable. You're right that readers don't see it when it's there, but when it's not, not only does the story look sloppy, but the reader has to guess at meanings and attempt to decipher sentences by filling in missing words and punctuation. Grammar is the structure that supports the story, and without it, the story collapses.
Catlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 02:05 PM   #49
teh603
Snarky Snark
teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
teh603's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,198
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Asus TF300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
Correct grammar and punctuation aren't just little niceties; they make the story understandable. You're right that readers don't see it when it's there, but when it's not, not only does the story look sloppy, but the reader has to guess at meanings and attempt to decipher sentences by filling in missing words and punctuation. Grammar is the structure that supports the story, and without it, the story collapses.
I dunno, I've found that only the worst grammar mistakes can really break a story apart. Split infinitives, dangling participles, lie/lay, its/it's, hanged/hung, starting with a conjunction, and the like are relatively minor annoyances that don't really hurt a story.
teh603 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 02:19 PM   #50
RHWright
Addict
RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 202
Karma: 1678000
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North Carolina
Device: NOOK ST, Nexus 7
It comes down to this for me: if you expect to be paid like a professional, put out a professional quality product.

How you get there is your own business. If you can/need to pay someone a bunch of money, do it. If you have trusted friends with a good eye for detail who will do it out of the goodness of their hearts, fine. If you are the rare individual who can do it all (write, revise, proof, copyedit, convert, format, et. al.), more power to you.

What counts are the results. And, sorry, as a consumer with $$ in my pocket, I find that spelling errors, typos, and gross grammar errors (its/it's, your/you're, there/their/they're) are signs of sloppiness and lack of attention to detail that I do not expect from a professional.

Some of the more, shall we say, picky areas of grammar---that usually deal with colloquial versus formal usage---I can let go when they make sense in context. I'm not going to fault Capt. Kirk for saying, "To boldly go ..." Split that infinitive all you want Captain! But if he says, "tell the landing party their beaming dawn to the palnet and search for you're mother," I will certainly, and I think rightfully, have an issue with the professionalism of the publication. I don't care how cracking good the plotline is after repeated mistakes like that.
RHWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 02:35 PM   #51
teh603
Snarky Snark
teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
teh603's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,198
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Asus TF300
Quote:
Originally Posted by RHWright View Post
What counts are the results. And, sorry, as a consumer with $$ in my pocket, I find that spelling errors, typos, and gross grammar errors (its/it's, your/you're, there/their/they're) are signs of sloppiness and lack of attention to detail that I do not expect from a professional.
Good luck finding a professionally- edited work that doesn't have at least one of those mistakes on a regular basis.
teh603 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 02:57 PM   #52
RHWright
Addict
RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.RHWright ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 202
Karma: 1678000
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North Carolina
Device: NOOK ST, Nexus 7
@teh603-
You're missing my point. Yes, mistakes happen and get by, even in professionally edited works. It doesn't change the professional standard to seek out and eliminate as many of them as possible.

The jist of many posts in this thread has been on the lack of necessity, at all, for good and thorough editing. That authors (especially indy ones) can just magically turn out "good enough" prose on their own, in a vacuum, and that we should excuse gross (i.e. numerous and pervasive) mistakes because the author is passionate about and tells a "good story."

Sorry, that doesn't cut it professionally. That's what would be known in my neighborhood as "amateur hour."

(I just realized how that may sound. I'm not targeting you or your work. Haven't read it. I'm speaking of things in general.)

As I said, results are what matter. Don't pay big dollars to get there if you don't need to. But get there & turn out a professional-grade product if you expect to be treated like a professional. Saying, "I'm an indy author/publisher and can't afford all the time and money to do that, so cut me some slack," just doesn't fly with me.

There are plenty of ways to turn out professional-grade work on a shoestring or no budget. It just takes time and dedication, which I think all serious writers should have for their work.

What I've seen of the writers around Mobilereads leads me to believe that most of the ones here do,in fact, do just that. Other indy authors can be of less certain quality.
RHWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 04:22 PM   #53
ebusinesstutor
Star Gawker
ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.ebusinesstutor ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
ebusinesstutor's Avatar
 
Posts: 439
Karma: 3525766
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Nanaimo, BC Canada
Device: Samsung Galaxy Note 3 | Acer Iconia Tablet
I certainly agree that the writer lacks enough distance from the work to edit it properly. When I write something, I carefully check it myself and then even print it out and go line by line and I still find I miss something.

I think it is because I am filling in the writing with what I meant to say, not what is on paper.

So, for important writing that I am publishing, I have someone else proofread it.

The crowdsourcing idea is one I have used as well. I often give copies to beta testers to get their feedback and they catch many errors.
ebusinesstutor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 05:14 PM   #54
Andrew H.
Grand Master of Flowers
Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,193
Karma: 8233324
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Naptown
Device: Kindle PW, Kindle 3 (aka Keyboard), iPhone, iPad 3 (not for reading)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teh603 View Post
I dunno, I've found that only the worst grammar mistakes can really break a story apart. Split infinitives, dangling participles, lie/lay, its/it's, hanged/hung, starting with a conjunction, and the like are relatively minor annoyances that don't really hurt a story.
Split infinitives aren't errors, nor is starting a sentence with a conjunction.
Andrew H. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 05:58 PM   #55
teh603
Snarky Snark
teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
teh603's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,198
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Asus TF300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
Split infinitives aren't errors, nor is starting a sentence with a conjunction.
Depends on your English teacher.
teh603 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 06:34 PM   #56
HomeInMyShoes
Ginormous Intergalactic
HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HomeInMyShoes ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HomeInMyShoes's Avatar
 
Posts: 14,569
Karma: 45450821
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: junkyard
Device: Kindle3
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrucci View Post
Well, the beauty of e-books and crowd sourcing is that once an error has been found and reported, it can be fixed and the book can be republished.
You will never get the chance to make another first impression. Life may be too short for one to bother with proofing a book properly, but my life is too short to waste on a lot of the garbage out there.
HomeInMyShoes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 07:16 PM   #57
DarkScribe
Apprentice Curmudgeon.
DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DarkScribe's Avatar
 
Posts: 424
Karma: 3286968
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Runaway Bay, QLD, , Australia
Device: Kindle DX Graphite, Touch, Paperwhite, Sony, and Nook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
Split infinitives aren't errors, nor is starting a sentence with a conjunction.
To some they might not be regarded as errors, but to most erudite people they most definitely are regarded as errors. I regard them as errors, and so do most of the professionals I work with - even American professionals. American William Strunk's "The Elements of Style" regards split infinitives as constructs to be avoided. It also recommends avoiding beginning a sentence with a conjunction. It defines writers who do so as "unskilled". The same with most British style and writing guides.

If writing one way will offend some people, and you are able to write in a manner perceived by all to be acceptable, why risk alienating any of your potential readers? Doing so seems foolish and pointless to me. People who are accepting of poor style or grammar will not be put off by an author writing well, while those who are not accepting of such things are an audience lost if you fail to write well.
DarkScribe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 07:51 PM   #58
teh603
Snarky Snark
teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.teh603 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
teh603's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,198
Karma: 6244877
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Coastal Texas
Device: Asus TF300
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkScribe View Post
American William Strunk's "The Elements of Style" regards split infinitives as constructs to be avoided. It also recommends avoiding beginning a sentence with a conjunction. It defines writers who do so as "unskilled". The same with most British style and writing guides.
So here's a question- other than "because Strunk said so," what're the reasons for it? Does he even state his reasons or is he just quoting an earlier style guide?
teh603 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 07:53 PM   #59
Andrew H.
Grand Master of Flowers
Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Andrew H. ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 2,193
Karma: 8233324
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Naptown
Device: Kindle PW, Kindle 3 (aka Keyboard), iPhone, iPad 3 (not for reading)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkScribe View Post
To some they might not be regarded as errors, but to most erudite people they most definitely are regarded as errors. I regard them as errors, and so do most of the professionals I work with - even American professionals. American William Strunk's "The Elements of Style" regards split infinitives as constructs to be avoided. It also recommends avoiding beginning a sentence with a conjunction. It defines writers who do so as "unskilled". The same with most British style and writing guides.
It is commonly believed by the public that splitting infinitives is wrong. No modern usage guide says so. (From Geoff Pullum "All the good usage manuals and scholarly grammars now recognise that phrases of this sort have occurred in English since its earliest history. They generally note that in many cases placing an adjunct between to and the verb is stylistically preferable to other orderings.")

Link is here: http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/splitinf.html

Here's a link to the M-W bit on prepositions at the end of sentences (under "prepositions at end." http://books.google.com/books?id=2yJ...page&q&f=false

The whole bit is worth reading, but the takeaway is that it is a "cherished superstition."

Quote:

If writing one way will offend some people, and you are able to write in a manner perceived by all to be acceptable, why risk alienating any of your potential readers? Doing so seems foolish and pointless to me. People who are accepting of poor style or grammar will not be put off by an author writing well, while those who are not accepting of such things are an audience lost if you fail to write well.
I don't see the point it mangling the English language to uphold the cherished superstitions of those with an incomplete understanding of English. (To the extent that's even possible; there's not a way to write the perfectly English sentence "What are you looking for?" in a manner that doesn't end the sentence with a preposition ("For what are you looking?" isn't a substitute.)
Andrew H. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 10:52 PM   #60
DarkScribe
Apprentice Curmudgeon.
DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.DarkScribe ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
DarkScribe's Avatar
 
Posts: 424
Karma: 3286968
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Runaway Bay, QLD, , Australia
Device: Kindle DX Graphite, Touch, Paperwhite, Sony, and Nook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew H. View Post
It is commonly believed by the public that splitting infinitives is wrong. No modern usage guide says so. (From Geoff Pullum "All the good usage manuals and scholarly grammars now recognise that phrases of this sort have occurred in English since its earliest history. They generally note that in many cases placing an adjunct between to and the verb is stylistically preferable to other orderings.")

Link is here: http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/splitinf.html

Here's a link to the M-W bit on prepositions at the end of sentences (under "prepositions at end." http://books.google.com/books?id=2yJ...page&q&f=false

The whole bit is worth reading, but the takeaway is that it is a "cherished superstition."



I don't see the point it mangling the English language to uphold the cherished superstitions of those with an incomplete understanding of English. (To the extent that's even possible; there's not a way to write the perfectly English sentence "What are you looking for?" in a manner that doesn't end the sentence with a preposition ("For what are you looking?" isn't a substitute.)
Sir Winston Churchill had a similar opinion. This was his response to an editor who re-worded one of his sentences to avoid ending it with a preposition.

"This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.” "

There are definitely exceptions to all rules and in English you often need to allow an exception to avoid clumsy or stilted sentences. Gowers, Strunk, Partridge etc., all accept this. This does not detract from the need to follow the accepted rules of grammar in non-exceptional cases.
DarkScribe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
htmlz editor Gwen Morse Calibre 25 01-07-2012 11:17 PM
MetaData editor crutledge Sigil 1 09-30-2010 08:53 AM
What It's Really Like To Be A Copy Editor Richard Herley Writers' Corner 34 08-16-2010 06:56 AM
Onyx Text Editor? Risto Andere Lesegeräte 1 05-25-2010 06:34 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:27 AM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.