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Old 08-26-2012, 09:13 PM   #61
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While you two are having your little discussion on the side, that still leaves uncontested the bold statement by JSWolf "more standard epub books are being sold world wide than Kindle books". Do we have any real numbers here? Any educated guesses by the experts? My money would be on Amazon -- especially since official ebooks in languages other than English are still a lot less widely available/accepted by readers. Even if there are more epub compatible readers out there, many people might use them to read PD or library books, or even pirated materials. Not all reading material is paid for.

That being said, even if Amazon had only a 40% market share, calling epub THE standard wouldn't make sense.
I seriously doubt Amazon has less than half the ebook market. And even if they do have a minority share, once you subtract Apple's walled garden and B&N's walled garden Amazon will have a larger market share than standard Epub.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:41 PM   #62
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I seriously doubt Amazon has less than half the ebook market. And even if they do have a minority share, once you subtract Apple's walled garden and B&N's walled garden Amazon will have a larger market share than standard Epub.
You can subtract Apple's walled garden because a lot of it isn't standard ePub. But you have to include B&N's walled garden as their (no-fixed reflowable) ePub is ePub. It just has a different DRM. So yes, that does count as ePub because it is.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:51 PM   #63
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You can subtract Apple's walled garden because a lot of it isn't standard ePub. But you have to include B&N's walled garden as their (no-fixed reflowable) ePub is ePub. It just has a different DRM. So yes, that does count as ePub because it is.
Can you readily get the Epubs out of B&N's ecosystem? I was under the impression you cannot. If that is true then B&N's wall is as high as Apple's wall. Both must be excluded.

And if you're going to make a claim that "a lot of it (iBooks) isn't standard ePub" then you need to back it up. Got figures?
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:59 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
Can you readily get the Epubs out of B&N's ecosystem? I was under the impression you cannot. If that is true then B&N's wall is as high as Apple's wall. Both must be excluded.

And if you're going to make a claim that "a lot of it (iBooks) isn't standard ePub" then you need to back it up. Got figures?
The problem with Apple is that we don't know what is and what isn't standard ePub. So if we include Apple, we could be including eBooks that are not ePub.

But as for B&N, the DRM is irrelevant. What is relevant is that if you remove B&N's DRM, what you are left with is standard DRM. So yes, B&N counts toward ePub readership.
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:07 PM   #65
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The problem with Apple is that we don't know what is and what isn't standard ePub. So if we include Apple, we could be including eBooks that are not ePub.

But as for B&N, the DRM is irrelevant. What is relevant is that if you remove B&N's DRM, what you are left with is standard DRM. So yes, B&N counts toward ePub readership.
Except with B&N you don't know what is or isn't true Epub by your standards (just like with Apple). They don't validate the Pubit submissions adequately, so you must exclude all of B&N just like you exclude Apple.

Amazon's still winning.
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:30 PM   #66
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Except with B&N you don't know what is or isn't true Epub by your standards (just like with Apple). They don't validate the Pubit submissions adequately, so you must exclude all of B&N just like you exclude Apple.

Amazon's still winning.
That's crap. B&N sells ePub. You Just don't seem to understand ePub. You think iBooks' fix-layout format is ePub. The nook uses ADE. The only thing B&N sells that isn't ePub is fixed-layout.
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Old 08-26-2012, 10:41 PM   #67
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That's crap. B&N sells ePub. You Just don't seem to understand ePub. You think iBooks' fix-layout format is ePub. The nook uses ADE. The only thing B&N sells that isn't ePub is fixed-layout.
You're once again wrong on all counts.

The fixed layout is Epub. It passes validation. Everyone besides you has conceded the issue. Just because you've made up your own personal set of rules does not change the fact that the fixed layout ebooks are Epub.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:33 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
You're once again wrong on all counts.

The fixed layout is Epub. It passes validation. Everyone besides you has conceded the issue. Just because you've made up your own personal set of rules does not change the fact that the fixed layout ebooks are Epub.
Prior to the ePub 3 spec, there was no spec for fixed layout in ePub. So it's not possible for fixed layout that's not ePub 3 to be ePub. What is it you don't get?

If I buy say an eBook from B&N that's published by Simon & Shuster and remove the DRM, it's a standard ePub eBook. The only thing different about it is the DRM. The eBook under the DRM is a box standard ePub. What about that don't you get? Because it is ePub, it counts. If I download the sample, it will be standard ePub (without DRM). This has nothing to do with what I want and everything to do with what actually is. When B&N first started selling eBooks, they were selling eReader format. Now they sell ePub. The same reflowing ePub that other shops sell but with different DRM. So if you read an ePub purchased from B&N, you are reading ePub. Every eBook I've purchased from B&N has been ePub. B&N sells ePub with a different flavor of DRM.

Last edited by JSWolf; 08-27-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:39 AM   #69
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Can you readily get the Epubs out of B&N's ecosystem? I was under the impression you cannot. If that is true then B&N's wall is as high as Apple's wall. Both must be excluded.

And if you're going to make a claim that "a lot of it (iBooks) isn't standard ePub" then you need to back it up. Got figures?
The discussion about readers should separate books from readers. Both Apple and B&N can read standard ePub books with their readers. Generally speaking they qualify as ePub readers. Sure they both have eBooks that are sold that only work on their devices and they sell some non-standard eBooks. I suppose you could exclude non-standard books from the total but that is hard to quantify. Unfortunately it is the nature of marketing for some companies to try and garner success by using a closed door approach. In the long run I think this will hurt, rather than help the market as a whole. Monopolies are not a good thing IMHO.

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Old 08-27-2012, 10:52 AM   #70
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Prior to the ePub 3 spec, there was no spec for fixed layout in ePub. So it's not possible for fixed layout that's not ePub 3 to be ePub. What is it you don't get?

If I buy say an eBook from B&N that's published by Simon & Shuster and remove the DRM, it's a standard ePub eBook. The only thing different about it is the DRM. The eBook under the DRM is a box standard ePub. What about that don't you get? Because it is ePub, it counts. If I download the sample, it will be standard ePub (without DRM). This has nothing to do with what I want and everything to do with what actually is. When B&N first started selling eBooks, they were selling eReader format. Now they sell ePub. The same reflowing ePub that other shops sell but with different DRM. So if you read an ePub purchased from B&N, you are reading ePub. Every eBook I've purchased from B&N has been ePub. B&N sells ePub with a different flavor of DRM.
Are you being deliberately dense or are you simply refusing to read the posts I wrote above? Seriously, why do you insist on getting into discussions when you are always right and the rest of the entire world is wrong?

You already know you're right so why even bother deigning to talk to us inferior lifeforms?
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Old 08-27-2012, 12:02 PM   #71
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The discussion about readers should separate books from readers. Both Apple and B&N can read standard ePub books with their readers. Generally speaking they qualify as ePub readers. Sure they both have eBooks that are sold that only work on their devices and they sell some non-standard eBooks. I suppose you could exclude non-standard books from the total but that is hard to quantify. Unfortunately it is the nature of marketing for some companies to try and garner success by using a closed door approach. In the long run I think this will hurt, rather than help the market as a whole. Monopolies are not a good thing IMHO.

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And Amazon is now selling some eBooks that are not for eink Kindles. The enhanced eBooks do not work on eink Kindles.
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Old 08-27-2012, 12:06 PM   #72
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Can you readily get the Epubs out of B&N's ecosystem? I was under the impression you cannot.
You can get ePub's out of B&N's ecosystem the same way you get them out of the Adept ecosystem. Those that can liberate B&N's ePub can also liberate ePub with Adept. Those that cannot liberate B&N are also those that cannot liberate Adept ePub.

When you remove the DRM from B&N's (reflowable) ePub or Adept ePub, you get box standard ePub.
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:43 AM   #73
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You can get ePub's out of B&N's ecosystem the same way you get them out of the Adept ecosystem. Those that can liberate B&N's ePub can also liberate ePub with Adept. Those that cannot liberate B&N are also those that cannot liberate Adept ePub.

When you remove the DRM from B&N's (reflowable) ePub or Adept ePub, you get box standard ePub.
So count B&N's sales as standard epubs. Even then the combined sales of standard epub books don't necessarily outpace Amazon's. You have no sales figures that show that, and it seems very unlikely.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:07 AM   #74
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So count B&N's sales as standard epubs. Even then the combined sales of standard epub books don't necessarily outpace Amazon's. You have no sales figures that show that, and it seems very unlikely.
Forgetting sales figures which nobody has to be definitive. We have more stores selling ePub, more readers able to handle ePub, we have more countries where we know ePub reins supreme. So it's fairly obvious that when you don't just mention the USA, that ePub has to be #1.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:34 AM   #75
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Forgetting sales figures which nobody has to be definitive. We have more stores selling ePub, more readers able to handle ePub, we have more countries where we know ePub reins supreme. So it's fairly obvious that when you don't just mention the USA, that ePub has to be #1.
But the USA and UK combined, probably account for 80-90% of global eBook sales, and Amazon dominates in both those countries (in the UK more than in the US). That almost certainly means that they have over 50% of the world-wide eBook market.
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