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Old 08-23-2012, 02:11 PM   #16
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[snip]I'm refering to the statement by regional distributor, that the file fails to open [snip]In legalese: this is a model case of strict liability.

EOT.
Sigh. Has it occurred to you that the file doesn't open because it is not a valid PDF? Has it occurred to you that legalese is not always the best way to improve the world (in this case the more modest subset of it consisting of M92s)?
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:29 PM   #17
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Sigh. Has it occurred to you that the file doesn't open because it is not a valid PDF? Has it occurred to you that legalese is not always the best way to improve the world (in this case the more modest subset of it consisting of M92s)?
If Adobe Acrobat opens it, it is either valid PDF or a miracle. And thank you for your preaching, I'll try to implement it in my further life.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:50 PM   #18
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If Adobe Acrobat opens it, it is either valid PDF or a miracle.
Like web browsers, I expect PDF-readers to be quite flexible and accept many invalid files.

There is no miracle involved in the acceptance of invalid documents - it is pragmatism. Which invalid HTML files browsers accept varies and that is probably true of PDF readers as well. That is why it might be valuable to examine the PDF file from the perspective of the standard.

Given a valid PDF file, however, I would be quite surprised if it did not display at all in Acrobat (though there are many examples of this as well - just look at the number of patches and revisions there are of the Adobe Reader to prevent carefully crafted PDFs from compromising the OS).
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:15 PM   #19
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Like web browsers, I expect PDF-readers to be quite flexible and accept many invalid files.

There is no miracle involved in the acceptance of invalid documents - it is pragmatism. Which invalid HTML files browsers accept varies and that is probably true of PDF readers as well. That is why it might be valuable to examine the PDF file from the perspective of the standard.

Given a valid PDF file, however, I would be quite surprised if it did not display at all in Acrobat (though there are many examples of this as well - just look at the number of patches and revisions there are of the Adobe Reader to prevent carefully crafted PDFs from compromising the OS).
If there's a yardstick to measure the validity of PDFs it is Adobe Acrobat, not Onyx M92. Particularly that this is not the first case of m92 misbehaving when other readers just work (go search for archive.org thread in this forum - you think this got fixed? Months on? Huh!) As I wrote, the file opens just fine in Acrobat, Xpdf, Xournal and Evince - what else is needed to say that software in m92 is defunct?
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Old 08-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #20
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If it displays on all those readers, it is probably a valid file. Have you tried to remove the DRM and see if it displays in any of the Onyx readers? It would help us pinpoint the problem. Are there any files that can be publicly distributed that can demonstrate it, it would be even better.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:58 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by janek View Post
If there's a yardstick to measure the validity of PDFs it is Adobe Acrobat, not Onyx M92. Particularly that this is not the first case of m92 misbehaving when other readers just work (go search for archive.org thread in this forum - you think this got fixed? Months on? Huh!) As I wrote, the file opens just fine in Acrobat, Xpdf, Xournal and Evince - what else is needed to say that software in m92 is defunct?

Hi,

I did not test this file you are speaking about, but I am preatty sure that not all ereaders would be able to open and read it.
As example the pdf files from archive.org couldn't be opened with Pocketbook, Sony and Lbook ereaders too. So it is not explicit a problem of Onyx, but possibly of Adobe SDK used in those devices, or a certain file could be somehow defective.

Did you try to use the feature for repair corrupted PDF with PDFTK ? It helped me to solve some cases of unreadable documents

Last edited by Booxtor; 08-24-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:10 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janek View Post
You never give up, don't you (or you sell these products yourself?) I'm refering to the statement by regional distributor, that the file fails to open. WRT your second point, the method of developing software does not exonerate the vendor. The vendor/make might choose close/open source development model (or indeed sorcery) but this is all irrelevant for their consumer relations, since the vendor is responsible for promises he makes WRT the functioning of the device.

In legalese: this is a model case of strict liability.

EOT.

you never give up do you(or are selling a competing product yourself)?
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:23 AM   #23
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Hi,

I did not test this file you are speaking about, but I am preatty sure that not all ereaders would be able to open and read it.
As example the pdf files from archive.org couldn't be opened with Pocketbook, Sony and Lbook ereaders too. So it is not implicit a problem of Onyx, but possibly of Adobe SDK used in those devices, or a certain file could be somehow defective.
Booxtor, I appreciate your input, but still, the brute facts are as follows:
1. Kindle opens it, Acrobat opens it, all other readers that i have open it. Same holds for archive.org files. So this is doable, with proper care, and that is not given on the part of the maker.
2. The fact that a third-party component is faulty does not mean that vendor is not liable for the overall product. Imagine what'd happen if a car maker said "well, we do not produce these paints so we do not take the responsibility for your car getting rusty". It is an interesting technical detail that Adobe SDK has been used, but hey, that's Onyx's problem, not customers'.
3. Pdftk is of no use here because the file is locked.

BTW, are there any predictions on when the annotation-merging bugs are fixed?

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you never give up do you(or are selling a competing product yourself)?
Well, no. I don't sell anything. Do you, by any chance?

Last edited by janek; 08-24-2012 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:11 PM   #24
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actually not anymore. but i have always made sure everyone knew that i did and have always give honest opinions not shadowed by whether I sell a product or not and even recommend products I do not sell. ask anyone here.

but how do we know you arent shilling for someone else? you seem quick to suggest it about others when your point is being argued against. prove you are not. or keep that foolishness out of the thread.
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Old 08-25-2012, 02:47 AM   #25
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actually not anymore. but i have always made sure everyone knew that i did and have always give honest opinions not shadowed by whether I sell a product or not and even recommend products I do not sell. ask anyone here.

but how do we know you arent shilling for someone else? you seem quick to suggest it about others when your point is being argued against. prove you are not. or keep that foolishness out of the thread.
And how do we know you are not Lord Vader?
But you're right, I shoudn't respond to some posts.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:37 AM   #26
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If Adobe Acrobat opens it, it is either valid PDF or a miracle. And thank you for your preaching, I'll try to implement it in my further life.

That is big bullshit. There are tons and tons of PDFs out there, which are not standard as defined by the respective ISO norm. And yet, Acrobat and other software is able to open those PDFs.

The fact that a certain piece of (proprietary) software is able to do something you want, does not make it by default a standard norm.


Apart from that, you at least tried to fix the PDF by, e.g., running it through Ghostscript and fixing it thereby?


EDIT: Oh, also: Adobe != PDF standard. Get your facts straight.
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Old 08-26-2012, 05:39 AM   #27
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That is big bullshit. There are tons and tons of PDFs out there, which are not standard as defined by the respective ISO norm. And yet, Acrobat and other software is able to open those PDFs.

The fact that a certain piece of (proprietary) software is able to do something you want, does not make it by default a standard norm.

Apart from that, you at least tried to fix the PDF by, e.g., running it through Ghostscript and fixing it thereby?

EDIT: Oh, also: Adobe != PDF standard. Get your facts straight.
That's developer's point of view. You may even be right when it comes to defining industry standards of pdfs. Maybe it is Ghostscript that defines it, maybe Adobe, maybe some ISO standard, I don't want to argue this point. You are also certainly correct when you say that pdfs can be very complex and probably are not entirely portable and that there are many examples of non-standard files. I do not deny all this.

YET the only thing I care about (and the only thing that counts in terms of warranties and all that) is user's perspective. Which is this: if a pdf just works with every possible reader out there, it is supposed to work with Boox's software. If it does not, it means that unsufficient care was put in developing that software, because otherwise doable task is not achieved. If I'm speaking about this being a warranty case, it is exactly for this reason - if I'm told the device does PDFs (and particularly if I'm told it is specifically designed to do PDFs), I can reasonably expect it is no worse than most standalone readers because the maker put sufficient effort in making sure that it does.

Sure, there are design limitations - nobody should expect the reader to open gigabyte-size pdfs or display color images correctly. And sure, it is possible to find a file on which this or that reader will choke, and some other will not. Still, what the maker/vendor promises by saying their product is a PDF reader is that it offers a functionality not below par established by standalone readers, and that they have checked that. It is not their promise that the device complies with some abstract standard which is rather hard to define (BTW Onyx clearly does not make such a promise - guess why?), but that their product is usable in standard cases. Thus a user who purchased the device to read a particular file may reasonably expect that he can do that, and that because he can check if the file opens in standalone readers. Failure to meet this expectation is a genuine reason to return the device as a warranty case.

BTW, we know rather well that Onyx otherwise fails to properly test their readers, so it looks like their falure to test m92 for compatibility is not exceptional, but just the way they operate. We also know that they fail to provide continuous support for their older models - like the m90 or A60, even if the firmware proved to be buggy, so there is reason to fear that the bugs in m92 will not be fixed.

Ah, wrt to fixing the pdf, please be so kind as to read my posts more carefully, I wrote about that (and also Mono did).
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Old 08-26-2012, 11:11 PM   #28
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There are a lot internet pages that my iPad will not display properly. It's frustrating, and I know that software fixes can be made, permissions can be given, etc. to fix it. But I'd hardly try to file a warranty claim with Apple on the basis of my inability to use their product to open every webpage out there. It's not defective, it just has limitations like anything else.
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:10 AM   #29
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There are a lot internet pages that my iPad will not display properly. It's frustrating, and I know that software fixes can be made, permissions can be given, etc. to fix it. But I'd hardly try to file a warranty claim with Apple on the basis of my inability to use their product to open every webpage out there. It's not defective, it just has limitations like anything else.
You probably knew that flash sites do not work on iPad before you bought it, didn't you? And you knew it because Apple made no claims that they do. To the contrary, if I recall.

Did Onyx warn users that some pdfs will not work?
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Old 08-27-2012, 04:14 AM   #30
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Janek,
I will repeat, what I have already wrote.

The pdf file you are refering to is very bizarre file! If I try print it via pdf printer the output pdf becomes 1000 times bigger than original.

Also, the fact, that several pdf readers and e-books can open it does not mean that it is valid pdf. There may be a question, what means valid pdf, but it should be pdf standard by ISO. Adobe may have and prabably has some additions and modifications to the standard.

Simply. This file misbehaves and because of that maybe is not valid pdf file. It is strange that Adobe reader can read it and Adobe SDK in Onyx e-reader cannot.
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