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Old 08-23-2012, 06:00 AM   #1
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m92 "silver bullet" warranty case?

It looks like m92 is unable to read certain pdf files. A user on this forum posted a pdf file readeable in regular Adobe Acrobat which just fails to open on m92.
It seems to me, that under EU regulations this constitutes universal warranty case, because the device clearly fails to do what is advertised as its primary function - read PDF files.
I don't think this will really cause a wave of class action suits across Europe but this really is an ultra serious bug with tremendous consequences - I would call it a silver bullet warranty case that can be used for returning devices at will - something that can mess up Onyx's business. In a way, this is really miserable, but on the other hand I hope this will motivate Onyx a little to improve their mediocre software.
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:54 AM   #2
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Onyx claims to support PDF, but that does not mean that they guarantee that the M92 will open any file that happens to have a PDF extension. You may be right that there is a serious bug (I cannot judge that) but if it came to a "class action suit" you would have a hard time convincing the judge that this is a "silver bullet warranty case".

Some time ago Onyx decided to drop support for all their legacy readers and focus their software development efforts solely on the i-series and the M92. That is too bad for owners of one of those legacy devices (like me), but lucky people like you at least can still expect software improvements.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:17 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Zetmolm View Post
Onyx claims to support PDF, but that does not mean that they guarantee that the M92 will open any file that happens to have a PDF extension. You may be right that there is a serious bug (I cannot judge that) but if it came to a "class action suit" you would have a hard time convincing the judge that this is a "silver bullet warranty case".
Well, the point is that the file is just a standard pdf file, which opens in standalone Acrobat Reader (or any other reader for that matter). You may of course try to argue your (their) case but the bottom line is, that the core functionality of the device, as advertised, is defunct.
(it would be clever of distributors if they added some small print in their websites regarding filetype compatibility, but as of now i can't see anything of this sort).

Last edited by janek; 08-23-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:46 AM   #4
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Be carrefull, the M92 is a reader for "books" and other "papers". Some PDF files are difficult to open without the power of a PC. It's necessary to examine the files, some files are very strange.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:03 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janek View Post
It looks like m92 is unable to read certain pdf files.
If it doesnt work as a PDF-File how about transcoding it to a djvu-File via a Online-Service?:
http://any2djvu.djvuzone.org/

Thats the easy way to read your file now and have time to find out why it wont open as .pdf
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:17 AM   #6
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I looked at that pdf. First problem might be that it is locked. But there is another very obscure thing about this file. It is less than 2 MB, but if I print it using pdf printer it becomes 2 GB - thousand times bigger.

I do not judge if M92 should be able to read this file or not. It is relatively small file, so one would expect it will read it for sure. But there is something strange about this file, so it may explain why it is not possible to open it.

Unfortunately, there is not any better 10" e-ink reader for pdf reading and annotating than M92, maybe PocketBook. If the competition in this market niche would have been bigger, the firmware would be fixed more quickly...

If Onyx ports android to M92 and it will run satisfactory on this device, problem with lack of applications, workflow, etc. would be solved.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy11 View Post
Be carrefull, the M92 is a reader for "books" and other "papers". Some PDF files are difficult to open without the power of a PC. It's necessary to examine the files, some files are very strange.
Yes, better safe than sorry. I accept no claims whatsoever regarding viruses, broken hardware etc Your point about computing power is right too, yet it is reported that the file opens just fine on Kindle. I was also able to open it on my Intel Atom netbook, which is not particularly powerful - and it opens in less than one second in Adobe Reader, Xpdf, Xournal and Evince.

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If it doesnt work as a PDF-File how about transcoding it to a djvu-File via a Online-Service?:
http://any2djvu.djvuzone.org/

Thats the easy way to read your file now and have time to find out why it wont open as .pdf
If you do that, you loose the possibility to annotate. Also it may or may not be the option since some form of write protection is used in the file.

Last edited by janek; 08-23-2012 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by janek View Post
It looks like m92 is unable to read certain pdf files.
[snip]
this really is an ultra serious bug with tremendous consequences.
Eh... it's just a bug. Get real and report it instead of underlining the saying that you should never sell anything to a lawyer.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:38 PM   #9
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Eh... it's just a bug. Get real and report it instead of underlining the saying that you should never sell anything to a lawyer.
Your approach to lawyers suggests you are American Love/hate kind of thing, eh?

FlameWar mode off, it seems to me this forum, this very thread included, is about nothing else but reporting bugs... Yet, judging from my 6 month experience with Onyx's reactions to bug reports, they need extra motivation to do the right thing. So, well, here you go.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:46 PM   #10
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[snip] it seems to me this forum, this very thread included, is about nothing else but reporting bugs... Yet, judging from my 6 month experience with Onyx's reactions to bug reports, they need extra motivation to do the right thing.[snip]
So this possible bug is reported to Onyx? What was their reaction?
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:01 PM   #11
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So this possible bug is reported to Onyx? What was their reaction?
Ow, please. Have you ever seen Onyx's bug-report site? Or consumer dept? The sordid truth is that the only way to contact them is via forums like this (but expect no reply) or via regional distributors. The latter - like Booxtor - seem to be really helpful and also nice people, but they don't develop the software themselves, they just "pass the information to the producer". And the most visible outcome of that producer's bugfixing is, at least that far, more bugs.

Last edited by janek; 08-23-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:16 PM   #12
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Ow, please.[snip]
So you talking about class action lawsuits (in the EU) for "breach of contract"/warranty for not fixing a bug that might not exist and that you have not mentioned to the manufacturer (what about the reseller that sold you your M92)?

I tried to get hold of the file from the forum earlier in order to have a look, but the Dropbox-link didn't work for me. Could you please post the file so I can have a look-see?
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:27 PM   #13
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So you talking about class action lawsuits (in the EU) for "breach of contract"/warranty for not fixing a bug that might not exist and that you have not mentioned to the manufacturer (what about the reseller that sold you your M92)?
Perhaps my English is imperfect, sorry if I failed to make myself clear. What I meant was that this is a clear warranty case that can potentially be very problematic for distributors and eventually for the producer, because everyone can make a claim on this basis. Still I have no intention of suing anyone nor advocate doing so and even wrote that I expect NO class action suits on these grounds.

The existence of the bug is confirmed by one of regional distributors and also by users in this forum, please read carefully.

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I tried to get hold of the file from the forum earlier in order to have a look, but the Dropbox-link didn't work for me. Could you please post the file so I can have a look-see?
The previous link was posted by somebody else, not me. I have no idea about the copyright status of this file, so no, I will not repost it, sorry.

And I think this is about it when it comes to our conversation.

Last edited by janek; 08-23-2012 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:51 PM   #14
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The existence of the bug is confirmed, please read carefully.[snip]And I think this is about it when it comes to our conversation.
Are you referring to (probably) your statement: "BUT if something opens up in Acrobat (and in addition to a few other programs based on their own libraries, not Adobe'a) is a valid pdf." ?

You could try to argue this in court, but there is an international standard for PDF defining the format - the latest being ISO/CD 32000-2. If there actually was a file available we could check - an approach I much prefer to hearsay - we might actually improve the M92 (much of the M92 software is not primarily made or maintained by Onyx (it is rather brought together into a full firmware package from various sources), but by Open Source communities and they are probably more likely to fix bugs).
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:08 PM   #15
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Are you referring to (probably) your statement: "BUT if something opens up in Acrobat (and in addition to a few other programs based on their own libraries, not Adobe'a) is a valid pdf." ?

You could try to argue this in court, but there is an international standard for PDF defining the format - the latest being ISO/CD 32000-2. If there actually was a file available we could check - an approach I much prefer to hearsay - we might actually improve the M92 (much of the M92 software is not primarily made or maintained by Onyx (it is rather brought together into a full firmware package from various sources), but by Open Source communities and they are probably more likely to fix bugs).
You never give up, don't you (or you sell these products yourself?) I'm refering to the statement by regional distributor, that the file fails to open. WRT your second point, the method of developing software does not exonerate the vendor. The vendor/make might choose close/open source development model (or indeed sorcery) but this is all irrelevant for their consumer relations, since the vendor is responsible for promises he makes WRT the functioning of the device.

In legalese: this is a model case of strict liability.

EOT.
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