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Old 08-15-2012, 06:41 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Harmon View Post
On point one, I think that the question of second hand availablity doesn't make any difference. I mean, where's the ethical obligation to buy a second hand book? It doesn't benefit the author/publisher in any significant way that I can see. Seems to me to be just like making a copy.
See my previous posts about second-hand copies.
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:30 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
See my previous posts about second-hand copies.
Well, it seems that, by and large, most posters agree with the summary you posted way back in post #2.

It is interesting, however, that all of the arguments for and against your propositions have been based on economic, quasi-economic or legal grounds.
None (as far as I can decipher them) on ethical grounds.

Probably because it wasn't a question of ethics in the first place, there never having been any valid moral or ethical justification for monopoly intellectual property rights.
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:33 PM   #63
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A book re-sold does return (usually part) of the payment (from which the author got his share) of the 1st time purchase to the reseller. No new item having value is created. Same as you keep the original and private copies all to you. No no value is traded. If you create a copy and put the original back into circulation you get value back from reselling the original AND keep the value of having the content in copy. Total value from your POV grows without the author having a share of it.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:19 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Jozawun View Post
never having been any valid moral or ethical justification for monopoly intellectual property rights.
So what is the basis to decide if a justification IS ethically valid or not?
Without IP protection a creator receives sure payment for 1st copy only. As every copist could ask for. Thus only the transfer from mind to medium is credited. Just the manual and none of the mental part of the creators work. This would declare the creative process worthless. Only by granting "shares" in copies created you honour the fact that without the creators minds work the physical copies wouldn't exist.

IMHO the decision whether we value labour of mind and creativity or if we limit this to physical
activity only is very much a decision based on ethics because if we would limit our judgements to physical consequences only a lot more than property would be differently judged:

No intent or motives checked: there goes the diference between accident, self-defence and murder.
No relevance of feelings: parenting=breeding;
etc.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:40 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Freeshadow View Post
So what is the basis to decide if a justification IS ethically valid or not?
Without IP protection a creator receives sure payment for 1st copy only. As every copist could ask for. Thus only the transfer from mind to medium is credited. Just the manual and none of the mental part of the creators work. This would declare the creative process worthless. Only by granting "shares" in copies created you honour the fact that without the creators minds work the physical copies wouldn't exist.

IMHO the decision whether we value labour of mind and creativity or if we limit this to physical
activity only is very much a decision based on ethics because if we would limit our judgements to physical consequences only a lot more than property would be differently judged:

No intent or motives checked: there goes the diference between accident, self-defence and murder.
No relevance of feelings: parenting=breeding;
etc.
You cannot be seriously saying that if we decide the moral/ethical value of a person's acts by his intentions, then we must grant monopoly IPRs for his creative work.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:37 AM   #66
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The ethical principle is that of respect of private property. Some legal person owns the copyright of the book and unless you obtain their written permission beforehand, copying the book is an injury to their property, whether it is directly measurable in dollars or not, whether the copy is shared or not.
The principle by which creative products are assigned the status of property of the creator, in the first instance is a separate one.
One might be opposed to the second principle but support the first, in which case the ethical obligation to not to copy a book would be unchanged.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:40 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Jozawun View Post
You cannot be seriously saying that if we decide the moral/ethical value of a person's acts by his intentions, then we must grant monopoly IPRs for his creative work.
We grant monopolies for every single physical items (except for commodities), why not for creative works that exist in digital form? You even have a monopoly on intangibles like your labor (I can't order you mow my lawn for free),
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:04 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by forcheville View Post
The ethical principle is that of respect of private property.
The assertion that "respect for private property" is an "ethical principle" is the implied basis of all the above arguments about the "ethics" of copying the book.
I am yet to see in this thread any basis for the assertion that it is an ethical principle, rather than merely a utilitarian or legal one.
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:17 AM   #69
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Probably because it wasn't a question of ethics in the first place, there never having been any valid moral or ethical justification for monopoly intellectual property rights.
I disagree. There are ethical justifications for copyright (aka monopoly intellectual property rights).

First and foremost, to encourage the creation of "intellectual property".
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:20 AM   #70
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First and foremost, to encourage the creation of "intellectual property".
But (having read to the end of the thread) I suspect you'll suggest that's merely a utilitarian reason.

Hmm....
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:29 AM   #71
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But (having read to the end of the thread) I suspect you'll suggest that's merely a utilitarian reason.

Hmm....
The ethical reason behind this is wrong to support those who don't want to contribute but expect others to work for them for free.
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:51 AM   #72
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But (having read to the end of the thread) I suspect you'll suggest that's merely a utilitarian reason.

Hmm....
Yes, that's correct.
The argument, of course, in favour of granting IPRs is that it has the social benefit of encouraging creativity sooner rather than later; and that this outweighs the social cost of limiting the use of the results of that creativity.

I don't know whether either half of the equation is correct, but it is clearly a utilitarian argument rather than an ethical one.
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:47 AM   #73
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I don't know whether either half of the equation is correct, but it is clearly a utilitarian argument rather than an ethical one.
What? An utilitarian argument is of course an ethical argument. Or do you ask about arguments for being an utilitarianist?

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Old 08-16-2012, 06:50 AM   #74
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I disagree. There are ethical justifications for copyright (aka monopoly intellectual property rights).

First and foremost, to encourage the creation of "intellectual property".
But you did not argue in that way. Your argument seemed to be a rights based argument since you said that the important thing was that the author was compensated. If you wanted to stimulate creation then you have not shown that photocopying of books you borrow does not have a net positive effect on creation compared to not photocopying and mutatis mutandis.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:59 AM   #75
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What? An utilitarian argument is of course an ethical argument. Or do you ask about arguments for using being an utilitarianist?
Yes, sorry, a bit sloppy in my terminology.
I was drawing the distinction between moral/ethical arguments, and those based purely on utility in the sense of "what makes things work" - not in the technical sense used in ethical utilitarianism.
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