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Old 07-26-2012, 05:00 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ixtab View Post
And now you are desperately trying to read things in the agreement that aren't there.


What do they say? Access to the Kindle store is generally free (note: "generally". Even this is a weaker term than "forever" or "guaranteed to be").

Then they say that they may charge you for services other than access to the Kindle store, and give examples. These examples aren't exhaustive either, and could be extended with, for instance, "access to any web site on the www".
No, I'm not desperately trying to read things that aren't there. I'll paste the agreement again:
Quote:
Use of Wireless Connectivity. Your Kindle uses wireless connectivity to allow you to shop for and download Digital Content from the Kindle Store. In general, we do not charge you for this use of wireless connectivity. Your Kindle may use wireless connectivity to make other services available to you for which we may charge you a fee, such as personal file download and subscriptions when you are located in another country. The fees and terms for such services are located in the Kindle Store and may change from time to time. If your Kindle functions with third party services, such as WI-FI access points, a third party may charge you fees for the use of those services.
This agreement specifically states that the fees and terms for the services subject to this agreement can be found in the Kindle Store. If you can show me where in the Kindle Store I can find terms for browsing, then I'll gladly concede.

Last edited by AZImmortal; 07-26-2012 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:04 PM   #62
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I would imagine it's capped in countries where Amazon doesn't have a roaming arrangement with a local telecoms operator. That's only a guess of course, but I'd be interested to know if it's capped in the UK, for example, where Amazon have a deal with Vodafone.
You actually can't roam on networks where there's no roaming agreement, but Amazon is definitely trying to reduce the roaming fees they pay.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:03 PM   #63
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Does this 50M apply to "Kindle 2" ? thanks
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:33 PM   #64
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Does this 50M apply to "Kindle 2" ? thanks
If your Kindle 2 is CDMA, it does not apply, because your limit outside the US has always been 0M.

If your Kindle 2 has cell-phone based internet outside the US, it is GSM, and the limit applies.

My question about how likely it is to get to 50M has not been answered. However, I am thinking there is no way anyone in my family, including our son who is going for a semester in Hong Kong next month, will hit this limit. 50M is the equivalent of fifteen Project Gutenberg copies of War and Peace, including HTML markup. So long as he keeps images off, how can he get to that?
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:04 PM   #65
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Isn't that the same justification that companies like Verizon have used when doing away with their unlimited plans? "Only 2% of data users go over X-amount of GBs a month, so most everyone will be ok with these tiers!"
The true cost of the bandwidth is all about paying middle men, Amazon might get good rates, but they'll never be that good. When you consider how much mobile data costs in the 3rd world, and you understand that people use tethering to download hundreds of gb per month (I've heard people say BB users could manage 1.2tb), things start to get real expensive.

The reason for capping becoming far more common in the US/Canada is that telecos didn't invest in infrastructure for a long time, so they need to work out ways to justify the caps, however it's based on capacity rather than cost. Elsewhere in the world caps are being removed.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:42 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by AZImmortal View Post
No, I'm not desperately trying to read things that aren't there. I'll paste the agreement again:

This agreement specifically states that the fees and terms for the services subject to this agreement can be found in the Kindle Store. If you can show me where in the Kindle Store I can find terms for browsing, then I'll gladly concede.
That agreement is linked to from the kindle.com/support section. under the "Kindle License Agreement and Terms of Use" link. Note also the relevant paragraphs both above below the last one, which you conveniently left out, and which I've highlighted in red.

Quote:
2. Wireless Connectivity
Use of Wireless Connectivity. Your Kindle uses wireless connectivity to allow you to shop for and download Digital Content from the Kindle Store. In general, we do not charge you for this use of wireless connectivity. Your Kindle may use wireless connectivity to make other services available to you for which we may charge you a fee, such as personal file download and subscriptions when you are located in another country. The fees and terms for such services are located in the Kindle Store and may change from time to time. If your Kindle functions with third party services, such as WI-FI access points, a third party may charge you fees for the use of those services.

Your Conduct. You may use the wireless connectivity provided by us only in connection with the Service. You may not use the wireless connectivity for any other purpose.

Availability. If your Kindle is located in an area in which it cannot maintain wireless connectivity, you may not be able to use some or all of the Service. We are not responsible for the unavailability of wireless connectivity for your Kindle or any corresponding loss of Service. Events beyond our reasonable control (such as changes in service or terms by wireless carriers) may impact the terms or circumstances under which we provide you wireless connectivity and may result in a change to these terms or a temporary or permanent modification or loss of wireless connectivity for your Kindle.
Translation: the experimental web browser is only for web browsing, and outside of areas where they have service agreements, they don't guarantee anything. If Rogers in Canada, or some other provider elsewhere, either jacks up the rates or else denies them service, Amazon can't guarantee connectivity for connecting to the Kindle Store, much less your tethering a laptop (already against the terms) to stream hours of YouTube video, or downloading things.

Last edited by Haesslich; 07-26-2012 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:54 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
That agreement is linked to from the kindle.com/support section. under the "Kindle License Agreement and Terms of Use" link. Note also the relevant paragraphs both above below the last one, which you conveniently left out, and which I've highlighted in red.



Translation: the experimental web browser is only for web browsing, and outside of areas where they have service agreements, they don't guarantee anything. If Rogers in Canada, or some other provider elsewhere, either jacks up the rates or else denies them service, Amazon can't guarantee connectivity for connecting to the Kindle Store, much less your tethering a laptop (already against the terms) to stream hours of YouTube video, or downloading things.
I didn't conveniently leave anything out. I'm not even the one who brought up the agreement in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, the entire Wireless Connectivity portion of the agreement is irrelevant as far as limiting 3G web browsing goes. Web browsing on the included browser is certainly allowed as far as conduct goes (I don't know if you're trying to imply that I tether, but I certainly don't), and the availability section refers to whether or not 3G is even available in the first place. Even Amazon understands that this part of the agreement doesn't address being able to artificially limit 3G web browsing, which is why it's in a completely different section:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...5470&#intwhisp
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:48 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg View Post
If your Kindle 2 is CDMA, it does not apply, because your limit outside the US has always been 0M.

If your Kindle 2 has cell-phone based internet outside the US, it is GSM, and the limit applies.
Actually, it's that the limit "may" apply. At this point, anyway. They're not applying it all cases outside the US yet.

Quote:
My question about how likely it is to get to 50M has not been answered. However, I am thinking there is no way anyone in my family, including our son who is going for a semester in Hong Kong next month, will hit this limit. 50M is the equivalent of fifteen Project Gutenberg copies of War and Peace, including HTML markup. So long as he keeps images off, how can he get to that?
I agree. I used 3G often on the KK/K3 and found it really useful, but never got close to that 50M as it would drive me crazy. Maybe people who subscribe to hundreds of text feeds and actually go through them daily might, since those are doable on the e-Ink devices might get close.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg View Post
My memory is otherwise.

If I'm mistaken -- and it has happened -- you can find the old Kindle marketing web pages at waybackmachine.org, and prove me wrong.
You're right.
To AZImmortal: This was discussed VERY often on Amazon Kindle forums and there WERE screen captures shown of what was said before, and at no time did it say "lifetime" although that word was used by some gadget news reviewers for reasons I never understood.

For one thing, it's always been 'experimental' and then we've also had years during which people have pointed to the wording in the Terms of Service that stated they had the ability to charge fees later on 3G wireless.

Quote:
The original Kindle free internet has been delivered, in the US, for 4 1/2 years. That a long time in the tech world.
Yes, and that's despite cynical columns or blogs [Example: http://blog.thestateofme.com/2010/08/03/kindle-3-trap/ ] that said that the free 3G was a trap and sometimes pointed out that the conditional wording in the Terms of Agreement meant Amazon could institute charges later at any time once we were reeled in. As you say, in 4-1/2 years they haven't done it on the old models though.

Quote:
A suspicious person could say that by using the word "experimental," and pre-loading bookmarks unsuited to the device, Amazon has always been discouraging browser use. But I don't know where they broke a promise.
Right, especially in this case since they didn't ever promise 'lifetime' but they've also never removed the free-3G from the older models although they could at any time.

They didn't include the free 3G in the Kindle Touch almost surely because of direct access to the hyperlinks versus the tedious 5-way button navigation on the KK to multiple links that can badly affect that navigation -- and because the Kindle Touch has a faster processor. Both these advantages mean people would be more inclined to use the web browser on 3G quite a bit more on the touch model if it were included...
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:13 AM   #70
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When you think about it if it was free 3G for the whole planet that would pretty costly in the long run. Remember that big state department order?

I have a feeling that those units don't have actual web browsing (outside of wiki, amazons site etc)
http://paidcontent.org/2012/06/13/st...mazon-kindle-d
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:32 AM   #71
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When you think about it if it was free 3G for the whole planet that would pretty costly in the long run. Remember that big state department order?

I have a feeling that those units don't have actual web browsing (outside of wiki, amazons site etc)
http://paidcontent.org/2012/06/13/st...mazon-kindle-d
mdovell,
The linked article re State Dept is about Kindle Touch models only though and those don't have the free 3G experimental web browsing though they of course have the WiFi feature.

The Kindle 3 or Kindle Keyboard model definitely has actual web browsing (very slow loading times unless it's pure text) and that includes in other countries when you're traveling.

The Amazon UK website lists countries where 3G web browsing works outside the UK for UK residents, and the same countries apply for US residents. If you get the feature in your country of residence you get it when traveling in countries where Amazon has 3g contracts with carriers there.

See http://kindleworld.blogspot.com/p/co...3g-access.html for details on this..
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:04 PM   #72
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I did say I don't use a 3G Kindle, it's the principle of the thing! As per HarryT's suggestion above though, there may well be a fair enough reason for it, in that case I'll go back to loving Amazon to bits
Sorry. I missed the part about you not having a 3G Kindle. I guess I read it a bit too quickly. I can relate, however, as I had a Kindle Keyboard not too long ago, and upgraded to a Kobo Vox, as I was disappointed with the limited Kindle hardware choices here in Canada. We just got the Kindle Touch available here a few months ago, and there is no sign of the Kindle Fire coming north any time soon.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:13 AM   #73
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If someone is interested how the exact message looks like - this is the screen I received from one of my blog readers.

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Old 07-28-2012, 09:38 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by chamekke View Post
P.S. Forgot to mention that although I bought my Kindle from the U.S. Amazon Kindle store, I'm in Canada (if that's relevant).
It's surprisingly relevant.

Although the 50MB limit is stated at Amazon ONLY on the page for those living outside the U.S., a blogger friend tells me that a knowledgeable Amazon person told him that this 50MB limit is supposed to kick in only when you leave your country when traveling for work or vacation, etc. It shouldn't come into play when you're in your home countr.

That, though, is not necessarily true, as on the 3G web browsing issue, Amazon reps at all levels were not agreeing with one another on the brouhaha over whether or not the Kindle Touch was eligible for free 3G web browsing and they finally clarified it one day with an official Kindle Team announcement (which probably followed a lot of discusison, as Kindle owners had email clarifications from various Amazon reps paid to give answers, who said with certainty what their answers were but these contradicted other reps' views and alarmingly so.

In your case, you MIGHT have bought the Kindle in the U.S. and then kept your 'residence' records as the U.S. If that's so, then you'd be eligible to get books that U.S. residents are offered.

But the downside (if my blogger friend's contact at Amazon is correct) is that you'd be seen as 'traveling' or 'out of your home country' if you never changed your home country with Amazon.

If so, then it's a choice between having access to more new books or coming up against that limit.

That doesn't speak to Amazon's putting the limit statement ONLY in the non-US resident page though.

If you're comfortable with letting us know either way, it'll help pin down when the new limit rule comes into play.

Thanks!

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Old 07-29-2012, 12:29 AM   #75
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It's surprisingly relevant.

Although the 50MB limit is stated at Amazon ONLY on the page for those living outside the U.S., a blogger friend tells me that a knowledgeable Amazon person told him that this 50MB limit is supposed to kick in only when you leave your country when traveling for work or vacation, etc. It shouldn't come into play when you're in your home country.

<snip>

If you're comfortable with letting us know either way, it'll help pin down when the new limit rule comes into play.
Hello Andrys,

No, I don't mind sharing a bit of information. I bought my Kindle Keyboard 3G in January 2011, ordering from my home here in Canada, and it was shipped to me from the United States. The only time I've taken my Kindle abroad was in May 2011, on a short trip to the UK. (During that time I did indeed use it for a spot of 3G connectivity whenever I couldn't get local access to wireless.) Since then it's stayed with me here in Canada. I have never been resident in the U.S. since owning the Kindle, nor have I pretended to be.

That said... I live very close to the American border. How close? Often, if I walk one block south of my home, my mobile phone chirps with an automated Telus text message welcoming me to the U.S.A. and reminding me of my roaming plan! (This is very common in my area of town, where our mobile devices get picked up by American 3G towers all the time.) I don't know if that's salient, probably not, but I thought it couldn't hurt to mention.

Here's something interesting I discovered this afternoon! I was out on the balcony reading a previously-downloaded book sample on my Kindle. I hadn't bothered turning on our home network so, no wireless. I decided the sample was good enough to warrant buying the book at $10, and since Amazon IS supposed to provide continuous 3G connectivity to the Amazon Kindle store (and Wikipedia), even after the monthly 50MB limit has run out, I didn't bother running in and turning on our wireless -- I just pressed Buy and waited for the 3G connection to click in so that I could complete the transaction.

Whereupon I got a message saying I couldn't connect, and would I like to join a Wi-Fi network so that I could do so?

I tried 3 or 4 times to get through to the Amazon Kindle store -- turning the 'wireless' on and off each time in the hope it would connect via 3G -- and never managed to get through.

So, erm, yeah. I'm wondering how many impulse buys Amazon may have lost because they've accidentally locked the 3G down too much?
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