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Old 03-22-2012, 06:45 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by ignacio ferrer View Post
I love these legal discussions by "laypeople".
Beyound the leagal responsibilities of the seller/producer there is something like goodwill(german: Kulanz).
Then this could be applied in not so clear cases.
Anyway: what is the use of a device that breaks so easily?

i have a M92. It travelled approximately 3000 km through Europe. I would certainly not say that it "breaks so easily".
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:53 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by tuxor View Post
I miss that as well. Sold hundreds of M92, only 3 cases of broken screens and that's already too much for "Kulanz"?
Are you kidding? If you think we could earn with discounted ereaders golden nose you are totally wrong. A lot of our collegue have allredy quit their business.
That "kulanz" thing I would have to pay from my own pocket and I have six daughters to grow (I hope you can imagine what that means .
200 EUR are also for us not such a waltz just to donate carelessness of some customers.
We are rather donating some students and scholars, wenn they ask us for additional discounts.
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Originally Posted by tuxor View Post
Intuitively, I would end up asking the same question. But if I think about it, I doubt that the device does really break "so easily". If we have hundreds of M92 without broken screen, how can we still talk about fragility? Do all those hundreds of buyers treat their devices like uncooked eggs? I can't believe that...
Although it is made of glass, the screen of M92 is indeed not so easy to crack.
I have recorded here a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvSys...ature=youtu.be
where I am trying to break the screen (which is already partly cracked) with weights. Pressure of 10 kg was not really a problem for it (and that without a cover). So you can stay relaxed, if you are writing your annotations, and just let your wrist rest on it (unless your wrist weights much more than 10 kg).
The old crack was caused by postal service. Some stupid worker just tramped it down.

Last edited by Booxtor; 03-22-2012 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:10 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Booxtor View Post
Although it is made of glass, the screen of M92 is indeed not so easy to crack.
I have recorded here a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvSys...ature=youtu.be
where I am trying to break the screen (which is already partly cracked) with weights. Pressure of 10 kg was not really a problem for it (and that without a cover). So you can stay relaxed, if you are writing your annotations, and just let your wrist rest on it (unless your wrist weights much more than 10 kg).
The old crack was caused by postal service. Some stupid worker just tramped it down.
It might not be a real simulation of everyday life accidents, but it's a nice video though I really love your dedication to all this, your numerous posts, links, photos and now even videos
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:22 AM   #49
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Hm - four things I noticed in the discussion were
- The screen doesn't need to be cracked for the device to be flawed. If there's a manufacturing process error (say, it was inserted at a slightly odd angle for whatever reason), it could have been under tension and just broke after a while under normal use.
- "Mängelgewährleistung" (leo.org claims it is 'warrant of merchantibility') therefore would be of relevance as long as the above possibility cannot be excluded by actual proof (which I see hardly possible).
- I might be wrong about that, but afaik Mängelgewährleistung regulations do not apply to exported goods sold to non EU customers.
- Warranty afaik is a purely voluntary thing offered by manufacturers, and therefore the conditions are completely theirs to choose. If they exclude defects manifesting in the hand of someone wearing red shoe laces, that would be perfectly in their right (though not necessarily in their interest - here we get to "Kulanz" - which Onyx could show) to specify.

W.r.t. rebuying the device:
I'm quite happy with mine - and right now I would buy it again if mine broke (though not sure whether I would under the trauma of an early demise of it...).

But coming from Iliad (v1 had a very serious stability issue), where one had the option to buy a reinforced bag protecting the screen (the front had a hard plate woven into it ), I also am wary of the (comparatively) flimsy cover protection.
Hence my product proposal: If there were some cover protecting the M92 from torsion (e.g. in tightly packed knapsacks), I'd probably be the first to buy it.

Last edited by kodomo; 03-25-2012 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:16 AM   #50
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I was really shoked after reading this thread.
But for me things are clear and i dont understand the discussion.

In Germany you have 24 month of warranty (Gewährleistung) directly from the vendor and in the first 6 month of the warranty the vendor has to proof that YOU broke the screen by MISusing the device.
The screen doesnt have to be broken before getting to you. If you always use the device exactly for what it is sold (reading) and the screen breaks than it is because of poor material quality. The warranty covers any defect caused by using the device exactly for the things it is sold for.

So Booxtor it is your turn to proof that the defect is caused on misusing the device and not on poor material.

for example:
a normal m92 has a good stability of the housing and this is prtecting the screen for getting broken by normal pressure on the screen.
now i have a m92 with any kind of abnormality what couses a lower stability of the device and the display is breaking after normal usage, which would never causes a broken display by a normal m92.
-----> warranty case

and maybe exactly something like this was happening.
poor building quality --> screen is breaking a lot easier and doesnt need MISusing the device for breaking the screen.


Edit:
i forgot one thing.
Booxtor you are saying that it is really hard to break a m92 screen. so if the broken screen was caused of mistreatment of the device there would be any sign of the mistreatment and fokus should have known that the device is not frozen (i assume that nobody is lying here).
the pictures doesnt look like there was a mistreatment, which would be strong enough to break the screen of a normal m92.

you are writing
"If the glass of the screen is broken it is obviously a kind of a sign of mistreatment. Fault in material is excluded, since the ereader has worked a quite long time (two months)."

what makes it obviously to a sign of mistreatment?
in my world two month are everything but NOT a LONG time.
in my world it is exactly the other way. if there is a broken screen without any visible damage on the device after 2 month, this is a perfect example for what the warranty stands for.

and sorry, but it is not a problem of the customer if the manufactor is not accepting some defect deviced, thats a thing you have to clarify with onyx.

and last but not least:
i dont want to say that the broken screen was not caused on mistreatment.
just prove that is was a damage coused by fokus.
all the stuff you wrote in this thread is not a prove, it looks like it was exactly the opposide:
a prove that there could not be a broken screen without any sign of mistreatment if the device has the same quality like all the other devices.

Last edited by Friday13th; 03-29-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:53 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friday13th View Post
I was really shoked after reading this thread.
But for me things are clear and i dont understand the discussion.

In Germany you have 24 month of warranty (Gewährleistung) directly from the vendor and in the first 6 month of the warranty the vendor has to proof that YOU broke the screen by MISusing the device.
The screen doesnt have to be broken before getting to you. If you always use the device exactly for what it is sold (reading) and the screen breaks than it is because of poor material quality. The warranty covers any defect caused by using the device exactly for the things it is sold for.
Basically what you are claiming is that a warranty cannot be voided within the 6 month period - that cannot be right for obvious reasons.
There is a difference between theory and practice: take the following example: you buy a tablet computer, after one week you drop it onto the carpet, it does not work any more, no damage is seen, you simply tell the vendor that the device is defective: in all likelyhood you will get a new piece - no questions asked. Is some damage is seen you are in trouble - for a good reason.
If the seller claims you are responsible for a defect he essentially tells you that the warranty is voided. You can turn to the courts and try your luck there.
As mentioned before, there is something like "Kulanz" or goodwill, which should kick in here.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:20 AM   #52
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no that is not what i am writing.
the warranty is voided within the 6 month if the defect was because of mistreatment.
and this has nothing to do with "Kulanz". In the first 6 month the vendor has to prove that the defect came through mistreatment and nothing else.

if my tablet is falling down to the carpet, the vendor can look at the broken display and can get informations about how the display get broken etc.
if i got in this situation and go to court the vendor still has to prove that is was my fault, this thing is not changing (only if it is more than 6 month after purchase)
if he is not able to prove this, he has to replace/repair the item.

we are not here to discus the sense of this law.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:56 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Friday13th View Post
if i got in this situation and go to court the vendor still has to prove that is was my fault, this thing is not changing (only if it is more than 6 month after purchase)
if he is not able to prove this, he has to replace/repair the item.

we are not here to discus the sense of this law.
Theory and practice - in case of a dispute you need an expert to assess the situation - that means you are risking a lot of money ...

Last edited by ignacio ferrer; 03-29-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:32 AM   #54
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if the customer did not misused the item he wouldnt risk a lot of money at all and there are insurences for cases like this.
but this is not the point. i can understand you exactly but this not an excuse how the things went for fokus.

if i would be in this position and would know, that i used my m92 only for stuff i bought it for and knowbody damaged the device, i would feel ripped of and wouldnt accept the ridicolous answer from Booxtor.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:36 AM   #55
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@Friday13th
1. Focus is non EU customer. The EU rights does not apply in his case.
2. Regarding warranty read our terms and conditions of use. If you are not agree - just don't buy.
3. I think this thread must be already closed. We are in contact with "Focus" and I think we have a solution.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:59 PM   #56
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@Friday13th

3. I think this thread must be already closed. We are in contact with "Focus" and I think we have a solution.
This gives new meaning to the word "forum" ...
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:18 PM   #57
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Reading this thread gives me some nervous ticks and a bad taste in my mouth, as I might suddenly find myself in the same situation.

My display has stopped working, started by not refreshing correctly after a page turn, next day came back, then nothing at all. Sometimes I can see a very faint impression on the display, but mostly it is blank.
Device has been used in my bed only, store in cover on bed table when not in use, so definitely no abuse on my behalf.
The first incident of this was on a page turn, after a couple of hours of reading.
Reader is about four months old.

I have contacted ereader-store.de, and the only reply so far has been a request for a picture of the screen and for me to agree to the outlay of 180 Euros.

Of course I shall wait for the shop to reply, but for the above reasons, I would be most interested in knowing what the outcome of this issue was in the end, as I might soon face the same choice as the op: i.e. pay out (possibly for only another four months of use), or simply forget about my reader and money.
(Maybe I should have started a new topic, but again, I am very interested to know what the outcome of this issue was!)

Cheers!
CJ

Last edited by CJY; 05-18-2012 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:23 AM   #58
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Of course I shall wait for the shop to reply, but for the above reasons, I would be most interested in knowing what the outcome of this issue was in the end, as I might soon face the same choice as the op: i.e. pay out (possibly for only another four months of use), or simply forget about my reader and money.
(Maybe I should have started a new topic, but again, I am very interested to know what the outcome of this issue was!)
CJ
I guess you are not from the EU either. If that is the case, I am afraid that you have not much of a choice.
I had to pay shipment to ereader-store.de and a new screen (150€). The ereader-store.de didn`t charge me for repair cost and shipment back to me. It was only their good will, they could of charge me for that also.
I have the device back and use it with extreme gentleness.
Apparently, there seems to be more cases like mine. I got also a private massage from a user with the same problem. I don`t know the outcome or any details about that.
If there are more cases like that, it would be good to make them public. It would help people to decide whether to buy or not to buy M92. From my experience, it is worth buying (from EU) if you are from the EU because you have some protection in that case. Otherwise, you are risking a lot of money. I don`t know the situation in US, Australia or other places.
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Old 05-19-2012, 07:12 AM   #59
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Focus, thank you for replying, much appreciated.

I am, in fact, in the EU, so am fully covered by the consumer laws here.

As I said, I am still not sure whether my issue is the same as yours or not, but I must admit this thread has me worried.
For now, I am still waiting for a reply on my issue, but shall let my outcome be known.

Cheers!
CJ

Last edited by CJY; 05-19-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 04:47 PM   #60
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Hi,

I just inspected the picture of your device you sent to our shop. I could see just a blank screen and it does not look like a broken screen at all. I would say it is rather electronic faulty. In this case it would be covered by warranty.
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