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Old 03-20-2012, 03:01 AM   #46
rkomar
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Not disputing your point, but are you actually saying you cannot play your DVDs? Or you bought them to play on your linux computer and they don't?

I am not a linux user obviously as I would have assumed that most DVDs would play on it. Copies maybe not, but probably.

I cannot see that the software actually playing a purchased DVD is circumventing DRM by playing it even on linux. DVD players have software to decode the DRM or no-one could play them. Where is the illegality of watching your legally purchased DVDs on any device that will play them?
I only started buying DVDs when the DRM had been cracked about ten years ago (by the infamous DVD Jon of Norway). Up until then, you could not play a DVD on a Linux system because the software wasn't available. Other, more popular, platforms (Windows, Mac) had commercial, closed-source programs for decrypting DVDs for playing, but those were never ported to Linux. So, I was still buying VHS tapes up until that point. Once the encryption was broken, the contents could be descrambled without needing the inaccessible keys hidden on the disc. The descrambling code was made public, so even the open source programs in Linux could make use of it. From then on, I stopped buying VHS tapes and switched to DVDs. That descrambling software is still used to this day, but since it is circumventing the DRM on the DVDs, it will become illegal to use when this law is passed.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:39 AM   #47
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I only started buying DVDs when the DRM had been cracked about ten years ago (by the infamous DVD Jon of Norway). Up until then, you could not play a DVD on a Linux system because the software wasn't available. Other, more popular, platforms (Windows, Mac) had commercial, closed-source programs for decrypting DVDs for playing, but those were never ported to Linux. So, I was still buying VHS tapes up until that point. Once the encryption was broken, the contents could be descrambled without needing the inaccessible keys hidden on the disc. The descrambling code was made public, so even the open source programs in Linux could make use of it. From then on, I stopped buying VHS tapes and switched to DVDs. That descrambling software is still used to this day, but since it is circumventing the DRM on the DVDs, it will become illegal to use when this law is passed.
Well that doesn't seem right. Can't say I totally understand the bill, but to me you are not circumventing DRM by playing an original DVD no matter how you play it. You bought the right to watch that DVD. Whether you have a right to legally copy it may be nebulous, but you should be able to watch that DVD using any capable equipment. To pass a law that prohibits you from watching the DVD you bought on a linux computer seems a bit nuts. (My point being you should be able to watch it on your washing machine if it was capable of displaying it)
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:10 AM   #48
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Well that doesn't seem right. Can't say I totally understand the bill, but to me you are not circumventing DRM by playing an original DVD no matter how you play it. You bought the right to watch that DVD. Whether you have a right to legally copy it may be nebulous, but you should be able to watch that DVD using any capable equipment. To pass a law that prohibits you from watching the DVD you bought on a linux computer seems a bit nuts. (My point being you should be able to watch it on your washing machine if it was capable of displaying it)
The same argument would apple to reading a Kindle ebook on a Sony eReader.
DRM enforces that only approved apps/hardware are allowed to access the content.
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:25 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post
Well that doesn't seem right. Can't say I totally understand the bill, but to me you are not circumventing DRM by playing an original DVD no matter how you play it. You bought the right to watch that DVD. Whether you have a right to legally copy it may be nebulous, but you should be able to watch that DVD using any capable equipment. To pass a law that prohibits you from watching the DVD you bought on a linux computer seems a bit nuts. (My point being you should be able to watch it on your washing machine if it was capable of displaying it)
Yes, it is counter-intuitive and a little bit stupid. That section is somewhat similar to the anti-circumvention section in the U.S. DMCA. The current Canadian government has been on team digital locks for a few years now, partially due to pressure from the U.S.

Also a little unseemly was that the publishing industry lobbied hard to have the education category removed from the fair dealing section. That was left in at, but it demonstrates how hard the publishing industry will fight to expand copyright law, even where it doesn't particularly benefit them. Aside from the digital locks section though, the Bill actually isn't that bad. Website blocking, notice and takedown, disclosure of subscriber info, etc. were proposed by lobby groups and rejected.

Last edited by Ninjalawyer; 03-20-2012 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:00 PM   #50
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I've got an interesting question with regard to the circumvention clause. As the Bill says that I cannot decrypt a work unless it is done with the authority of the copyright owner, how can I know what the copyright owner authorizes? Further, if I buy a DVD from someone licensing the rights to a DVD, do I still need the copyright owner to authorize it? Can a copyright owner revoke all rights to decrypting a DVD?
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:19 PM   #51
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Hi,
And this is the real issue.

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Also, it does prevent Canadians from from creating or providing instruction on DRM removal tools, but not much else.
Without legal access to the "tools" how long do you think it will be before the major vendors change their drm schemes to make the current tools stop working.

I think people believe there will always be someone out there with the skills and interests to reverse engineer each new drm release. That may be true for more popular media formats like movies and cds, but it is not generally true for ebooks.

Except for a small hand full of people who supported such things, there has not been a mad rush of others generating drm removal tools for ebooks. And most of them have retired: IHeartCabbages, Dark Reverser, Alf, etc and that leaves fewer each year. And I know one more will retire if this bill passes into law (some_updates is Canadian based).

So you may be happy to say you will continue to remove ebook DRM for personal use but the tools to do that may simply not be available anymore even if they are free and pointedly against piracy like the AA site.

The few alternative sources for tools out there are just direct rip-offs (if you unpack them you see the exact same AA python scripts simply compiled to a binary for Windows - and not even compiled for Macs and they charge for it!) of what AA produces and so if AA goes away they will become useless as well.

IMHO, creation of "tools" should be protected activities (as long as you do not charge for them and do not promote piracy) so that users can continue to have fair use (fair dealing) access to them.

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Old 03-23-2012, 05:27 PM   #52
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I think people believe there will always be someone out there with the skills and interests to reverse engineer each new drm release. That may be true for more popular media formats like movies and cds, but it is not generally true for ebooks.
I agree that eBooks are not a popular format to decrypt, but I'm also not expecting any new eBook DRMs soon either. If there comes a time when I can't decrypt eBooks anymore, I'll stop buying them.

Quote:
IMHO, creation of "tools" should be protected activities (as long as you do not charge for them and do not promote piracy) so that users can continue to have fair use (fair dealing) access to them.
If the tools were legally protected, there would be no purpose for DRM in the first place. It would be simpler to require consumers' rights than to support both the implementation of DRM and its removal.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:48 PM   #53
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Well that doesn't seem right. Can't say I totally understand the bill, but to me you are not circumventing DRM by playing an original DVD no matter how you play it. You bought the right to watch that DVD. Whether you have a right to legally copy it may be nebulous, but you should be able to watch that DVD using any capable equipment.
Like rkomar, I only started watching DVDs when the DRM was cracked and I was able to watch them under Linux. After all, watching video isn't a big thing for me so I didn't want to buy a dedicated player and TV.

But the thing that you have to understand is that DRM is about Rights Management, rather than copyright. It is specifically intended to tell people how they can use the media. That ranges from the devices that it can be accessed with to where you can watch it (region encoding). This is done to do everything from locking a customer into a particular platform to controlling prices on a regional basis.

There are also other issues in the mix. In broadly licensed standards, such as those used by DVD players, there are patents and royalties. Noone was actually saying that you couldn't play DVDs on Linux. They were simply saying that you couldn't play DVDs on Linux without paying royalties to the people who developed the DVD standards. As things stand today, I believe that you can buy properly licensed DVD player software for Linux.

Alas, the issues surrounding this stuff are often more complex than they are portrayed.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:52 PM   #54
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by Wasgo View Post
I agree that eBooks are not a popular format to decrypt, but I'm also not expecting any new eBook DRMs soon either. If there comes a time when I can't decrypt eBooks anymore, I'll stop buying them.

If the tools were legally protected, there would be no purpose for DRM in the first place. It would be simpler to require consumers' rights than to support both the implementation of DRM and its removal.
There you are wrong. The Kindle DRM has changed a number of times in the last two years and continues to change.

I do think people should be able to create drm removal software legally so that consumer rights are protected and because it should be the act of piracy that should be outlawed not the tool. Using that logic, anything that could possibly be misused in any way to cause financial (or physical harm) to another should be outlawed. No one sane is asking for that. It is the misuse itself that should be outlawed.

Which brings me back to my main point, if you outlaw the development of the software that removes DRM even for fair-use purposes, then you are allowing DRM to completely trump fair-use or fair-dealing.

I believe you claimed it does not - but you would need a court verdict in your favour to get that right back which I feel never should be taken away in the first place.

Bill C11 will really hurts those with blind users that use the tools to enable Text To Speech on their purchased ebooks. Amazon does tie their DRM to their TTS metadata flags which prevents this now.

When this law passes, blind users will be worse off than if they lived under the more draconian laws of the States - a very sad statement for Canada!

I have my fingers crossed that the Pierre Poutine scandal will grow and the Conservatives will lose their majority and good common sense politics will return to Canada with no one side able to push through laws without the help from another party. I know I am grasping at straws here!

Take care,

KevinH
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