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View Poll Results: Do you pirate books?
Yes 100 25.84%
No 176 45.48%
Once in awhile 111 28.68%
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:32 PM   #481
GlenBarrington
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No, do't pirate. . .

Why? Too lazy, mostly. Cracking DRM sounds like work. I looked at the instructions once, and decided honesty was easier.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:21 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyGuy View Post
When an EULA or a TOS states or implies that I cannot allow my spouse, sibling, child to read an ebook that I actually purchased and own myself, they absolutely invalidate any other argument they might present that does make sense.
Most DRM schemes/TOS allow for limited sharing, the kinds households would expect to do, by allowing multiple devices to link to an account. And there is nothing that says you can't lend the book when it's on a reader.

I've actually participated in a number of discussions on "how can I share (part of) my kindle/nook library with my child" that do not require any circumventing of DRM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:23 AM   #483
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My book arrived, a mere five days late. Looks like I won't have to do anything drastic but dammit I paid for it and had every reason to expect delivery by a certain time. There wasn't a flood or a blizzard it just wasn't shipped.
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:58 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Your set of demands seems to me to be mutually contradictory. You say that you want to end DRM, but support libraries. Can you explain how libraries can operate without DRM?
I don't see what the one's got to do with the other, necessarily. Libraries have been loaning books for centuries and CD and DVDs for years without any special precautions.
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Old 02-25-2012, 04:09 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer View Post
"identity theft" is an interesting example, but you're quite right, that also wouldn't meet the definition of a theft in the way it's used. In fact, in my jurisdiction, you won't find a law in the criminal code called "identity theft". The use of the term "identity theft" provides no real commentary on what is and isn't theft.


Theft of potential profits is not theft.
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Originally Posted by tompe View Post
This is still a bogus argument. "identy theft" is not theft. It is "identy theft". Compare to "X science" which does not imply that X is is a science. Calling "identy theft" just theft would be confusing and wrong.
I just looked up "Theft of Identity" statutes in my state. And they do call it such. Interestingly, they don't base it on what the person lost or was taken but what the actor received. They use the phrase "obtains a benefit."
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:22 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Fbone View Post
I just looked up "Theft of Identity" statutes in my state. And they do call it such. Interestingly, they don't base it on what the person lost or was taken but what the actor received. They use the phrase "obtains a benefit."
There's a slippery slope. I'd file what's called identity theft under fraud and privacy violations. I don't pay for sunlight but I obtain a benefit from it.
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:53 AM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyGuy View Post
When an EULA or a TOS states or implies that I cannot allow my spouse, sibling, child to read an ebook that I actually purchased and own myself, they absolutely invalidate any other argument they might present that does make sense. If they ever come to the real world and understand that Rights trump cash, they may actually be able to get somewhere. The BS they having been trying to pull off is just going make people behave the same way they did during prohibition.

Stop the “it is a license” nonsense, the book was purchased.
Stop the agency pricing, allow competition and demand to control prices.
Price ebooks below the paperback version; it is the exact same story without any printing, delivery, and storage involved.
End DRM immediately. You are calling your customers thieves and you remove the versatility of a digital file.
Do not sell any ebook in a proprietary format; they should be readable on any device.
End geographic restrictions; don’t give anyone a valid reason to use alternate methods to obtain the product.
Stop cutting off libraries! They are friends not foes.
Nail on the head. Also quite appropriate reference to prohibition in some ways, as that gave us the MAFIA(A)
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:58 AM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue_librarian View Post
I don't see what the one's got to do with the other, necessarily. Libraries have been loaning books for centuries and CD and DVDs for years without any special precautions.
Those are physical objects which have to be returned to the library. A computer file isn't like that. It has to "expire" at the end of the loan period; that implies the use of DRM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:13 AM   #489
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I don't agree. Just delete the file when you are done. And for those people who don't, there are those who routinely rip audio CDs or DVDs; it's about just as difficult.

To give you an example, university libraries routinely grant their students access to scientific and other PFDs, more often that not without any kind of DRM. "Save as" would be all that it'd take to keep a copy, but I don't know many students that bother. The list goes on.

Last edited by rogue_librarian; 02-25-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:37 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Joykins View Post
Most DRM schemes/TOS allow for limited sharing, the kinds households would expect to do, by allowing multiple devices to link to an account.
Can you name any that specifically say it's okay if other people own & use those devices? Because all the ones I've seen say that the books are sold (or "licensed," although that's yet to be tested in court) for a single person only.

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And there is nothing that says you can't lend the book when it's on a reader.
Fictionwise says: "You may download eBooks that you have bought for your personal use, but may not distribute them to other people using email, floppy, or any other method." (Emphasis added.) Smashwords says, "Smashwords books are licensed for your personal reading enjoyment only, so you are not legally allowed to copy, share, or email the book to others".

Quote:
I've actually participated in a number of discussions on "how can I share (part of) my kindle/nook library with my child" that do not require any circumventing of DRM.
But they do involve ignoring the TOS or EULA.

No wonder children grow up thinking that anything they *can* easily do is acceptable; plenty of people tell them, "yes, those are the rules as written, but that part is stupid; just ignore it." (I believe that part is stupid, and I tell my kids to ignore it. I've been telling my kids which part of online TOS's we're going to ignore for over ten years--I'm perfectly capable of deciding what sites are too adult for my kids and I'll take responsibility for any mistakes they make on sites that require people to be able to enter a legal contract to join--like Google.)
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Old 02-25-2012, 04:46 PM   #491
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Yesterday I received a fake book. In short, it's a book that contains lead sheets. A lead sheet contains the melody notes, chords, and lyrics of a song, but no accompaniment. You are supposed to improvise (fake) the accompaniment and adapt it to your own playing style when you perform the song. That's why it's called a fake book.

Fake books often contain 1000+ songs, and are huge: this one contains 940 pages, is 9 x 12 inch, it's some 2 inches thick, and weighs around 7 pounds. You can't put that on a music stand. So, what do most people do? Copy a song before they play it.

What do you think was said in the beginning of the book?

Quote:
For all works contained herein: Unauthorized copying (including for personal use), arranging, adapting, recording or public performance is an infringement of copyright. Infringers are liable under the law.
So, I may not copy a page, not even for my own use, which requires me to put the entire behemoth tome on the instrument (a Hammond organ, in my case). I may not adapt or rearrange the song (which is the f*** purpose of a fake book), and I must make sure other people never hear what I play.

This is hilarious. That copyright statement effectively makes the sheet music unusable.
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Old 02-25-2012, 04:58 PM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbone View Post
I just looked up "Theft of Identity" statutes in my state. And they do call it such. Interestingly, they don't base it on what the person lost or was taken but what the actor received. They use the phrase "obtains a benefit."
Uh-huh.
"Obtains a benefit" is a common guideline in fraud cases.
(I.E., the ongoing lawsuit against the Wilpon family, owners of the NY METS, for their investments in the Madoff ponzi scheme.)
It also applies to corruption, racketeering, industrial espionage, and impersonation.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:12 PM   #493
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Can you name any that specifically say it's okay if other people own & use those devices? Because all the ones I've seen say that the books are sold (or "licensed," although that's yet to be tested in court) for a single person only.
No, I never read those things unless driven to (as now) by curiosity. If real life were like South Park, I'd be a human centipede by now

Quote:
But they do involve ignoring the TOS or EULA.
Hm, on the B&N site:

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In your use of your NOOK or the Service, you may not: (i) transfer the Digital Content from one electronic reading device to another without maintaining the applicable digital rights management solution for that Digital Content; (ii) infringe, violate, or interfere with any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright, right of publicity or any other right of any party; (iii) violate any law, rule or regulation, including, without limitation, U.S. export control laws; (iv) copy, transfer, sublicense, assign, rent, lease, lend, resell or in any way transfer any rights to all or any portion of the Digital Content to any third party, except in connection with the normal use of the lending feature available through the Service, or as expressly permitted by the Terms of Use or applicable third-party license agreement; (v) broadcast, transmit or distribute the Digital Content in any manner, such as online streaming or making the Digital Content available for download; (vi) interfere with or damage the Service, including, without limitation, through the use of viruses, cancel bots, Trojan horses, harmful code, flood pings, denial of service attacks, packet or IP spoofing, forged routing or electronic mail address information or similar methods or technology; (vii) violate any third-party contract or policy governing the Service, Software or Digital Content; (viii) open, modify, service or tamper with your NOOK; (ix) engage in any activity that interferes with any third party's ability to use or enjoy the Service; (x) delete, destroy or alter in any manner the proprietary rights notices, markings and legends appearing on your NOOK, or the Digital Content, Software or Service; or (xi) assist or encourage any third party in engaging in any activity prohibited by this Agreement.
Interestingly enough I've seen notices like this: "You are not legally allowed to copy, share, or email the book to others" inside books that are part of the lending program. I suppose they are just following Jesus's commandment from Matt. 6:3 ("But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing"). It certainly is difficult to know what to do as the end user. Of course, I have also purchased several ebooks with this notice in the front matter:

Quote:
The sale of this book without its cover is unauthorized. If you purchased this book without a cover, you should be aware that it was reported to the publisher as "unsold and destroyed." Neither the author nor the publisher has received payment for the sale of this "stripped book."
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:26 PM   #494
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That last notice is in all my Del Rey books.

Don't worry, I won't even consider a book damaged as such *for free*, let alone buy it, or it has to be a really, really rare and unobtainable story.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:53 PM   #495
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That last notice is in all my Del Rey books.

Don't worry, I won't even consider a book damaged as such *for free*, let alone buy it, or it has to be a really, really rare and unobtainable story.
Friends of mine who used to work in bookstores used to sometimes "rescue" these books from the dumpster and give them to me (and, presumably, other friends as well), like a cat presenting its owner with a freshly-killed mouse.
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