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Old 02-11-2012, 07:20 AM   #46
Billi
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That makes sence. PDF was mean as a format for printing, and to send documents, NOT as an e-book format.

I'm not sure if this is historically true. When I remember it right, pdf was invented for sharing documents, to display them on all different PC's and keep the layout, independent from what fonts and so on a user has installed. The usage in print came later, in the first years the most used format there was ps and eps.
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:28 AM   #47
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I'm not sure if this is historically true. When I remember it right, pdf was invented for sharing documents, to display them on all different PC's and keep the layout, independent from what fonts and so on a user has installed. The usage in print came later, in the first years the most used format there was ps and eps.
PostScript was originally developed as a printer-independent page description language, to allow applications to output highly-complex page images to any printer. The idea was that you'd have software called a "Raster Image Processor" in the printer's firmware, to interpret the PostScript instructions and convert them into pixels for that printer. Used in that way, it was initially popular for 3D graphics applications and desktop publishing. It was only later that it caught on as a format for exchanging documents with other people.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:29 AM   #48
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PostScript was originally developed as a printer-independent page description language, to allow applications to output highly-complex page images to any printer. The idea was that you'd have software called a "Raster Image Processor" in the printer's firmware, to interpret the PostScript instructions and convert them into pixels for that printer. Used in that way, it was initially popular for 3D graphics applications and desktop publishing. It was only later that it caught on as a format for exchanging
documents with other people.
Correct.
What happened was people would spool postcript print jobs into .ps files for archival purposes so all that was needed was to copy the file to the postcript printer port. (We're talking command-line interface era, here. ca 1985-90)

Adobe took note and in 1993 introduced Acrobat as an archival tool so the Postcript jobs could be viewed on screens and printed from a GUI environment. People who had been zipping and emailing .ps files slowly moved to pdf.

During the first ebook era some people and publishers took to using pdf as a distribution format for replica ebooks despite the size and usability issues because it was a one-way format; you couldn't easily extract meaningful data from a pdf. (Even today it's a non-trivial effort that often fails. At its core, pdf is still a print spool job with enhancements.)

PDF didn't take off for commercial ebooks because the files were almost useless on PDAs and none of the early ebook readers could afford the cpu power (or licensing) to render them. And because it didn't allow the end-user display options that even the first-gen ebook formats (pdb, prc, rb, imp, lit) allowed.

For years Adobe tried to extend PDFs to try to sell them as ebooks but it never really caught on and by the time the Kindle and, later, ePub readers, came out it became a hopeless cause. So they moved their ebook DRM scheme from pdf to epub and proudly proclaimed it a "standard" and started collecting DRM fees from lots of would-be players. A nice and timely hijack effort.
That has pretty much failed, so far.
Long-term? Who knows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format

Last edited by fjtorres; 02-11-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:00 AM   #49
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[RANT ON]I still can't figure out all the whining about DRM...it is no different than a software license. If you ACTUALLY read the EULA for the software you are only allowed to install it on one (1) computer. Just because you have multiple computers does not mean you can install it on all of them with the same license...and it is no different with ebooks, you license it for the device you use.[RANT OFF]

The simple solution is if you don't like/agree with it don't buy books with it...
No. If I pay for it, then it's my personal property and I will do with it as I please. Of course, I'm still subject to the law - same as with any other personal property. I will treat a purchased ebook the same as I would a paper book and ignore any arbitrary "rules" backed by petty tyrant wannabes.

You may say the license is the law, and my response would be that the law is only as good as the lawmaker's ability to enforce it.

Last edited by no.guru; 02-11-2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: tpyo
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:37 AM   #50
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No. If I pay for it, then it's my personal property and I will do with it as I please. Of course, I'm still subject to the law - same as with any other personal property. I will treat a purchased ebook the same as I would a paper book and ignore any arbitrary "rules" backed by petty tyrant wannabes.

You may say the license is the law, and my response would be that the law is only as good as the lawmaker's ability to enforce it.
(my underlining, -bolding-, and italicizing in the above quote)

So you are basically saying that if you can get away with it, it is acceptable to do so.
I don't wish anything to happen to you like your car being scraped badly at night in a parking garage, or burglars robbing your house, or even strong arm assailants beating you on the street and taking your money, watch, phone, "eReader," etc., but it seems to me that these people, perpetrating these crimes on you, are ignoring the law, getting away with it, and all because of a lack of ability to enforce it, so "well and good" for them at least. There are no morals involved for you or for them.

This is not the world I would like for either myself or my family.
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:00 AM   #51
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(my underlining, -bolding-, and italicizing in the above quote)

So you are basically saying that if you can get away with it, it is acceptable to do so.
I don't wish anything to happen to you like your car being scraped badly at night in a parking garage, or burglars robbing your house, or even strong arm assailants beating you on the street and taking your money, watch, phone, "eReader," etc., but it seems to me that these people, perpetrating these crimes on you, are ignoring the law, getting away with it, and all because of a lack of ability to enforce it, so "well and good" for them at least. There are no morals involved for you or for them.

This is not the world I would like for either myself or my family.
You're equating reading an ebook with vandalism, theft, and physical assault. I will ignore your snide little it-would-be-a-shame-if-anything-happened-to-you comments.

There are no moral considerations in treating a legally purchased ebook the same as a paper book. None.

Hold on - I will revise that. If publishers are making a power grab simply because they can - as they are - it is immoral not to oppose them.
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:59 PM   #52
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No. If I pay for it, then it's my personal property and I will do with it as I please. Of course, I'm still subject to the law - same as with any other personal property. I will treat a purchased ebook the same as I would a paper book and ignore any arbitrary "rules" backed by petty tyrant wannabes.
I agree completely.

Quote:
You may say the license is the law, and my response would be that the law is only as good as the lawmaker's ability to enforce it.
Furthermore, unenforceable law is bad law, because it lessens respect for the law in general.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:10 PM   #53
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No. If I pay for it, then it's my personal property and I will do with it as I please. Of course, I'm still subject to the law - same as with any other personal property. I will treat a purchased ebook the same as I would a paper book and ignore any arbitrary "rules" backed by petty tyrant wannabes.
What does it even mean to treat a purchased e-book the same as a paper book?
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:30 PM   #54
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(my underlining, -bolding-, and italicizing in the above quote)

So you are basically saying that if you can get away with it, it is acceptable to do so.
I don't wish anything to happen to you like your car being scraped badly at night in a parking garage, or burglars robbing your house, or even strong arm assailants beating you on the street and taking your money, watch, phone, "eReader," etc., but it seems to me that these people, perpetrating these crimes on you, are ignoring the law, getting away with it, and all because of a lack of ability to enforce it, so "well and good" for them at least. There are no morals involved for you or for them.

This is not the world I would like for either myself or my family.
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Originally Posted by no.guru View Post
You're equating reading an ebook with vandalism, theft, and physical assault. I will ignore your snide little it-would-be-a-shame-if-anything-happened-to-you comments.

There are no moral considerations in treating a legally purchased ebook the same as a paper book. None.

Hold on - I will revise that. If publishers are making a power grab simply because they can - as they are - it is immoral not to oppose them.
You have distorted what I said and to top it off, you say I am being snide. I reject that in whole. You need to check a mirror.
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:39 PM   #55
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What does it even mean to treat a purchased e-book the same as a paper book?
I would guess that it would mean that:

1. That I own the "book" as an entity to use as I will, subject to the normal laws of copyright and intellectual property.

2. That I can loan it to another on a temporary basis, sell it or give it away permanently.

3. Not be prevented from reading it - I know this is the tricky bit in the ebook/physical book comparison - but it seems reasonable that I should be able to make a back-up copy (given the potential for corruption and loss in electronic media) and be able transfer it to different a different device (sinces devices do fail and better models appear), not necessarily from the same manufacturer but also not necessarily on multiple devices simultaneously (after all, you only get a single copy of each physical book you buy).

If DRM could reliably provide the above, there would be far fewer objections to it. The propiatory nature of the current systems is a big cause of the problems - they are as much (or more) about tying users into a particulay vendor/hardware as about their claimed protection of publishers' or authors' rights.

Last edited by SnarkHunter; 02-11-2012 at 05:43 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:15 PM   #56
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What does it even mean to treat a purchased e-book the same as a paper book?
To me it means that I keep it forever, able to put it on any reader/device that I have at any given time without any hassle or compatibility problems. I've been pulling books of of my bookshelves for years I expect to do the same with my ebooks.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:29 PM   #57
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To me it means that I keep it forever, able to put it on any reader/device that I have at any given time without any hassle or compatibility problems. I've been pulling books of of my bookshelves for years I expect to do the same with my ebooks.
Your right to read the books that you purchased trumps any license.
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:50 AM   #58
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To me it means that I keep it forever, able to put it on any reader/device that I have at any given time without any hassle or compatibility problems. I've been pulling books of of my bookshelves for years I expect to do the same with my ebooks.
Agreed. Fair use applies, meaning I can make multiple copies for my own use. It is mine in perpetuity. The seller doesn't have the right to revoke it because I change devices.
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:57 AM   #59
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You have distorted what I said and to top it off, you say I am being snide. I reject that in whole. You need to check a mirror.
You need to explain your meaning better, then.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:47 AM   #60
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Ooops! Doing a little research on line it appears that under UK law we have no right to alter the format of copyright material such as music or e-books - so no ripping CDs to MP3 or converting Kindle to epub! Ridiculous. Even more insane is that, apparently, even back-up copies may be illegal. The UK legislation needs a massive overhall.
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