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Old 01-03-2012, 01:12 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjheiss View Post
What do you mean by "wget" folder? You mean from the OptWare package I already installed, or from the bash shell?

I hate to be a noob, but I really don't know enough of Unix OSes to know what you're talking about with such vague instructions. :P

Don't I need ncurses installed for nano to work, even if I put it on the USB drive? Or is it pre-installed with OptWare?

Also, why do I need a loop mount, can't I just use SSH to put it onto my Kindle and install it?

Also, when I extracted the .ipk with SSH on my K3G I never got a data.tar.gz... how do I get it? I guess it's about time to install a Linux distro on my computer!

If at all possible, could you write an amateur friendly tutorial for us? That'd be awesome.
EDIT: Inappropriate replies removed because false assumptions were made on my part regarding information availability to newcomers to the linux community (the kindles run linux). There were references to the standard technical acronym RTFM, meant to be humorous (as sort of inside joke), but could be taken as offensive by newcomers. Please read my interpretation of RTFM here:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho....php?p=1879352

Sorry, but I need some time off. There are manuals and web pages and other documents out there, and to really learn this stuff you can read the GPL source code from amazon, and I hear that there is this new tool called "Google". You should try it.

EDIT: I realize that saying to GOOGLE something is no longer a useful answer. Please read why in my post just two posts down from this one.

EDIT: The following icon shows my feelings at the time that I made the original version of this post. (I have not slept more than 6 hours total in the past 3 days).

Last edited by geekmaster; 01-03-2012 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:27 AM   #32
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The common theme in your post seems to be "Read the [edit] Manual". That would be a great tip, if only there were such a manual! How about we trade services: I'll translate some things for you, and you can write me a tutorial. Not everyone can be an expert at everything, so calm down. I don't mind you not wanting to help, but you have no right to blame me for not knowing everything you do.

By vague I meant that only someone like you that knows a lot about what they're doing can understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geekmaster View Post
Sorry, but you need to learn linux so you can understand reasonable length answers to question you ask.
And that's what I'm doing, by asking questions so I can learn.

Last edited by dreams; 01-03-2012 at 04:16 AM. Reason: language edit by moderation
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:48 AM   #33
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EDIT: I will sleep on this and decide what to do later. I may come back and edit my posts to tone them down if I decide that I was in error after I get some much needed rest. This is just one of many interactions (many of them PMs) that have been wearing me down. The PMs especially. I see now why other helpful members get grumpy at times when a help session is not going well (as can be seen in IRC archives). I *am* a grumpy old man right now. Sorry to take it out on you sjheiss. I know that you did nothing wrong other than to accidentally irritate me. Good night, and sorry.

Sorry. I am very tired. I need a vacation. I need sleep. I need to get back to work.

The "help me" PMs are wearing me out, especially when I give detailed advice and get a reply like "I tried random stuff right after I asked for help and now that menu does not show anymore -- my screen is just blank and it will not reboot." REALLY? After I invested my valuable time putting my kindle in diagnostics mode to duplicate the photos of their kindle and computer screen that they sent me, and I tested every recovery step to exactly solve the problem shown in their photos, while I typed my reply, the person who asked me to help could not have even a little patience to wait for a reply (which was answered quickly by the way) and just wasted my time. That and the "vague" comment after I put a lot of effort into finding URLs and such... I have been feeling increasingly often that I have put too much effort into trying to help everybody that I can, and now I need a break...

Why would somebody press random keys in a service menu that can damage their device anyway? Why would somebody ask questions about making changes to their kindle that could brick it if done improperly, when they do not understand basic linux stuff? Why did I provide the URLs?

After all the embarassingly lengthy information loaded posts I have made, I felt that in this thread I should make my posts more concise while still containing the important points and details on where to find more information, as can be seen by comparing my series of posts in this thread to those in previous threads. This is one of my typical *short* replies:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho....php?p=1885630

Most of my replies are much longer with much more detail, taking me much more time to do the research and compose a reply that contains enough information to guide someone in what direction to do their own research, while not making it so long that it will not be read and followed, which would just be a waste of my time. I tried to do some sort of compromise in length are research effort in this thread. Perhaps I was too aggravated to the "vague" comment I received after my effort. Apparently I have failed.

Again, I am very sorry. RTFM is a very common STANDARD reply in the linux community for questions that seem to them (based on their own knowledge and experience) could have been answered easily with a little effort by the person who asked. It was not meant to offend. I actually thought (wrongly) that they injected a little (inside) humor while also being somewhat appropriate. Read more information here (seriously, please read it):
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho....php?p=1879352


EDIT: I thought about it a little. I think I will refrain from RTFM comments in the future. The problem is that we are INUNDATED by a DELUGE of information. Who knows WHICH manual to read anyway? A typical single application may come with a directory FULL of manuals. And lately, Google has lost most of its value as a research tool due to the "filter bubble" effect. The current trend to individually customize search results causes harmful positive feedback loops that isolate us into information "ghettos". Now that Google and other search engines really ARE "The Manual" in most cases, those of us with some knowledge in some area cannot assume that others even have access to "that information". There is no "standard google" anymore, so in many cases there is no "standard manual" anymore.

I believe that this is what contributed to my recent belief that multiple beginners did not even TRY to read "the manual" when for me, when I ask Google, it gives me multiple pages of useful results. For a beginner, Google does not know they are interested in something new, so it gives them NO useful search results, using the SAME keywords that I just tried while composing my reply. It is not the linux noob's fault. It is not my fault. It is GOOGLE's fault!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE watch this IMPORTANT short video about online filter bubbles:
http://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser...r_bubbles.html



P.S. Perhaps after I get some rest and get caught up on my work I will try to make some kind of newbies guide to underground kindle development. I doubled as a professional technical writer early in my career, and I taught computer programming at a junior college for a year, so it would not be that difficult. I just need to get my time management under control before I add yet another thing to my "To Do" list...

Last edited by geekmaster; 01-03-2012 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:05 AM   #34
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I did some research and I have decided that although "RTFM" is a time-honored standard reply in technical communities such as this, it is no longer appropriate for a number of reasons that I have documented in my edits to my previous two posts to this thread.

Another reason to retire this worn-out piece of technical jargon not mentioned above is that this is a truly international community and many forms of subtle humor such as RTFM do not translate well and may cause confusion, misunderstanding, or anger due to cultural differences and differences in technical background and experience.

My previous two posts have been updated to reflect my new understanding of this situation. Please read them if you have only seen the previous versions.

I am an "old-timer" in the field of computers and information technology, and things have changed a LOT during my lifetime. I have come to realize that my choice of words must also change with the times.

Thank you.

Last edited by geekmaster; 01-03-2012 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:23 AM   #35
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This optware stuff is much more complicated on the newer kindles for a number of reasons. I am having my own trouble trying to figure out what works and what does not work, finding workarounds for the things that do not work. For example, on the Kindle 4 (Non Touch), the busybox that is installed on the main root partition does contains a wget command that does not work with optware ipkg, and the instructions given earlier in this thread do not seem to work on these new kindles. I found a difficult and risky workaround, but I tried to provide a simpler way using optware tools instead of busybox tools in my earlier posts to this thread. Despite a lot of effort, I did not make myself transparently clear, and truthfully, I do not yet know HOW to make myself clear to beginners in this somewhat risky and "not yet fully understood even by experienced developers" kind of endeavor. I hope things get easier in the future as this stuff becomes better understood.

Besides experiencing compatibility issues between busybox and optware, the kindle touch has a big problem with doing optware stuff when the kindle GUI framework is running, which seems to be caused by "out of memory" issues when trying to do anything useful in the optware environment. This stuff all works great on a kindle 3, but that experience does not translate well to newer kindles (at least not in my personal experience so far).

It is hard enough just trying to understand how to make it all work reliably in the newer kindles. It is much harder to help somebody else learn it when I am still having my own problems getting it to work correctly.

I will try to document it when I understand it better. Other developers who understand this stuff better are very busy "developing", so may not answer questions posted here in a short amount of time. Developers can get busy and disappear from these forums for days at a time. Please be patient and do not "press random keys". Remember that on the new kindles this is considered "developer mode" and even a lot of experienced developers have been bricking their kindles, rendering them useless until they figure out how to repair the damage.

Therefore, do not blindly try stuff thinking that nobody will help you. Instead read as much as you can find about it, so that when a developer DOES get back to you they can help you without getting sucked in too deeply trying to explain themselves to you so it can be understood correctly. PLEASE do not do anything to make your situation worse while waiting for an answer. If the thread with your request gets buried behind other updated threads, you can occasionally "bump" it by adding a new reply to the bottom. If you have nothing new to add to the discussion, just say "bump" in the message.

Thank you.

Last edited by geekmaster; 01-03-2012 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:41 PM   #36
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Here is the wiki announcement:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=163768
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Old 01-09-2012, 07:38 PM   #37
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Eventually using the information provided and a bit of tweaking, I got OptWare working on the Kindle 3.

I've put the setup instructions on the wiki:
http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Optware

The required file is attached. Put the Kindle in USB drive mode and unzip the file onto the drive, unplug the Kindle then do (in the Kindle shell):

cp /mnt/us/libipkg.so.0.0.0 /opt/lib/

Note: The above hack is a very dirty hack, I simply removed the --passive-ftp parameter from the shared library file and added filler to bump up the filesize. This seems to work fine on testing ipkg.
Attached Files
File Type: zip libipkg.so.0.0.0.zip (68.6 KB, 177 views)

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Old 01-09-2012, 07:41 PM   #38
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Optware was working great on my kindle 3. I was using a chrooted loop mount, with bind mounts for system folders.

I encountered problems on the newer kindles (the ones without keyboards).
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:40 PM   #39
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I had the same problem with the busybox 1.7.2's wget on the Kindle 3.

Does chroot get past the busybox standalone shell "feature" we were trying to circumvent?
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:31 PM   #40
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busybox does not use the search path for any functions that it includes (including wget if that particular busybox includes wget). Some versions in kindles do not even check the symlinks in /bin. You can even delete those symlinks to busybox if you are using its shell (sh or bash).

After chroot you need to start another shell from a busybox that either has a good wget, or that has no wget and use a separate wget program.

On the k4nt, I was able to get optware ipkg working by mounting and using the busybox in the diagnostics partition (a different version with different included functions).

On the k3, it all just worked, so I did not check into it very deeply.

The REAL problem with optware on the touch is that there is not much free memory, even after stopping the GUI framework.

I and another developer bricked their kindle touch while trying to use optware on it. I used the serial port to recover. The other developer sent his bricked device back to amazon. Now it can be debricked in most case using the tar bug.

Optware (and a full debian chroot) worked great on the k3, but later kindles have been plenty of trouble.

Last edited by geekmaster; 01-10-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:05 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geekmaster View Post
Optware was working great on my kindle 3. I was using a chrooted loop mount, with bind mounts for system folders.
I was even using it without loop mounted file system, writing directly in the root fs. But I don't recommend that because I bricked my device this way - during update I ran out of free space. Kindle update makes a lot of effort to do everything in a sandbox and when it's sure new files are fine it copies them. But free space check is not one of them.
Loop-mounted fs is much safer and can be prepared in advance. One drawback is that if you have more tools there (e.g. gcc), you have to symlink many /opt subdirectories.
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:07 PM   #42
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Hi, I've installed Optware and installed gcc, however when I run ./configure for the program I want to install, I get the result:
Code:
configure: error: in `/mnt/us/myts/apps/tads/frobtads-1.1':
configure: error: C++ compiler cannot create executables
I'm confused, what should I do?
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:26 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by sean.fosterbrown View Post
Hi, I've installed Optware and installed gcc, however when I run ./configure for the program I want to install, I get the result:
Code:
configure: error: in `/mnt/us/myts/apps/tads/frobtads-1.1':
configure: error: C++ compiler cannot create executables
I'm confused, what should I do?
Please add more details. There should be an error mentioned before this one.
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:08 PM   #44
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Anyone has tried MOC package from there - it would be a wicked audio player for the kindle. I think that curse app are so well fitted for the kindle since they're text base and quite close to the actual kindle 'os'.

I use vim, irssi(irc), alpine(email), moc(music) and newsbeutler(newsfeed) for most of my work and w3c for browser. If all these apps would work on kindle it would create a really nice portable workstation!

Anyway I'll hack away to install OptWare and tried it out Just checking if anyone lead the way on MOC.

I was wondering also if we could create our own repository with all the jailbreak and other apps (chess, fbreader etc) so that it could all be installed from the command line - would that even work ?
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by damaru View Post
Anyone has tried MOC package from there - it would be a wicked audio player for the kindle. I think that curse app are so well fitted for the kindle since they're text base and quite close to the actual kindle 'os'.

I use vim, irssi(irc), alpine(email), moc(music) and newsbeutler(newsfeed) for most of my work and w3c for browser. If all these apps would work on kindle it would create a really nice portable workstation!

Anyway I'll hack away to install OptWare and tried it out Just checking if anyone lead the way on MOC.

I was wondering also if we could create our own repository with all the jailbreak and other apps (chess, fbreader etc) so that it could all be installed from the command line - would that even work ?
Regarding MOC, what about mplayer? There has already been a binary compiled of that for the Kindle, which you can use from the command line.

And regarding a repository, someone is experimenting with that, and creating a GUI for it. See here: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=167579

Surely a Kindle repository could be made (including Kindlets and general hacks and apps), but I have no idea how.
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