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View Poll Results: January 2012 Mobile Read Book Club Run-Off Vote
The Spy Who Came in from the Cold by John le Carré 20 45.45%
Black Rain by Masuji Ibuse 24 54.55%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-28-2011, 12:30 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
UK
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/
http://www.amazon.co.uk
http://books.google.co.uk/ebooks
http://www.whsmith.co.uk/ebooks.aspx
http://www.booksonboard.com/index.ph...ks-audio-books <-- in the upper right corner is a way to switch to the UK store

Canada
Go to http://www.amazon.com and make sure you are logged out. Then go to the Kindle Store. Search for a book. After the search results come up, in the upper right corner of the screen, change the country to Canada and search away.
http://ebookstore.sony.com/ <--upper right corner switch to/from US/CA
http://books.google.ca/ebooks

If anyone has anymore stores that we can browse from the US, please let us know. Kobo (for example) doesn't show us if the book we selected is available where. So I would guess that you would need a Canadian account to see what's there for Canada.
Thanks again, Jon.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by issybird View Post
Ultimately, in any given month, I look at the winner and if a lot of people want to read something that doesn't work for me for any reason, I'll move on. There's always next month.
I tend to agree. The hoops to jump through are getting smaller and the reasons are becoming sillier.

While I understand this is an international group and there are things like geo-restrictions and availability problems, I'm finding myself less and less willing to participate. This month's book was available from Amazon and I am interested in reading it. If I have to check on whether the book I nominate next month is available *worldwide* before it's accepted, then I'll probably not nominate. If I really don't have to check, then why are we doing this?

I'm hoping we aren't getting into rules for rules sake.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by issybird View Post
I'm going to confess to getting very tired of all these "improvements" that only serve to make the selection process even more torturous. They don't seem necessary to me and even seem like stirring the drink for the sake of ongoing turmoil. 2012, the year of no changes, hasn't even started yet!

My understanding of the rules was that a selection had to be available as an ebook somewhere. Can't we just let it go at that? Those who care can check availability in their own country, rather than having nominators logging in and out of various sites around the world. Oops, not availabe in Vanuatu!

Moreover, while I know for some reading on their devices is a necessity, usually there's a pbook option (library, ILL, cheap second-hand copy) for the others when the ebook isn't available. People should be responsible enough to consider their options and vote accordingly. There are a lot of factors that go into making a choice in any case.

Ultimately, in any given month, I look at the winner and if a lot of people want to read something that doesn't work for me for any reason, I'll move on. There's always next month.
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The reason Tom is adding the links is so that individual participants can see if an ebook version is available for them, ahead of time.

Plus, libraries can be mentioned until we are all blue in the face but they are not automatically a viable source. Not anymore. Black Rain is not available in my county..period! It would cost me $45 dollars to use the library at the next county over and/or $35 to join the Philadelphia Library (They don't even have Black Rain as an ebook so that would have been pointless).

In order for people to participate in a book club, they have to have access to the books if we want this to be both fun and successful.
I'm not going to insist that everyone do a check before they nominate a book, but the addition information in the new spoiler at the end of the second post of the nominating thread will contain non-US bookstore links so that individual participants can see if an ebook version is available in their country, as Nyssa said. In addition, should those members make me aware that a particular book isn't available in their country, I'll note it in the second post right beside the Inkmesh search. The whole purpose is to make things easier for everyone, not harder.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:15 PM   #64
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I am in Canada and have bought the Black Rain epub from Kobo, no problem for under $9 which seems like a good deal. Adobe DRM epub can be downloaded from your library but I read using Kobo reader.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:17 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by issybird View Post
I'm going to confess to getting very tired of all these "improvements" that only serve to make the selection process even more torturous. They don't seem necessary to me and even seem like stirring the drink for the sake of ongoing turmoil. 2012, the year of no changes, hasn't even started yet!

My understanding of the rules was that a selection had to be available as an ebook somewhere. Can't we just let it go at that? Those who care can check availability in their own country, rather than having nominators logging in and out of various sites around the world. Oops, not availabe in Vanuatu!

Moreover, while I know for some reading on their devices is a necessity, usually there's a pbook option (library, ILL, cheap second-hand copy) for the others when the ebook isn't available. People should be responsible enough to consider their options and vote accordingly. There are a lot of factors that go into making a choice in any case.

Ultimately, in any given month, I look at the winner and if a lot of people want to read something that doesn't work for me for any reason, I'll move on. There's always next month.
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I tend to agree. The hoops to jump through are getting smaller and the reasons are becoming sillier.

While I understand this is an international group and there are things like geo-restrictions and availability problems, I'm finding myself less and less willing to participate. This month's book was available from Amazon and I am interested in reading it. If I have to check on whether the book I nominate next month is available *worldwide* before it's accepted, then I'll probably not nominate. If I really don't have to check, then why are we doing this?

I'm hoping we aren't getting into rules for rules sake.

It does seem to be becoming even more about the selection process, and less about finding the book somewhere in some format and then just reading it and participating in the discussion, to the extent one wishes. Perhaps something to consider for 2013 is to limit books to those available as ebooks right here in the Patricia Clark Memorial Library? This would ensure that an ebook version was available to all and at a price anyone will find attractive, free! When I first started participating in thhis book club I thought that might be how things were.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:28 PM   #66
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It does seem to be becoming even more about the selection process, and less about finding the book somewhere in some format and then just reading it and participating in the discussion, to the extent one wishes. Perhaps something to consider for 2013 is to limit books to those available as ebooks right here in the Patricia Clark Memorial Library? This would ensure that an ebook version was available to all and at a price anyone will find attractive, free! When I first started participating in thhis book club I thought that might be how things were.
I'm really not sure if you are being serious or not.

It is not unreasonable to ask that a book club being held by a site dedicated to e-reading offer selections that are available in e-book format. It is also not unreasonable to make efforts to help all of our members find copies of said book.

I don't know why adding links to a post is causing concern. No rules have been added or changed. No one is required to do anything more than we've already done, except to say when a book is not available in e-book format in their country.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:33 PM   #67
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Here is what I think about all of this:

Tom hasn't changed any rules, just made a small cosmetic change to the template. I remember dreams already adding in details on location availability if someone mentioned them in previous months. A book can still in theory be nominated and win even if it's not available in most places if that's what most people vote for.

I like the thought of being as inclusive as possible and of course I don't want anyone to feel left out because of their region.

However, there are a few reasons why this doesn't work well in practice. There are members in many different regions and ebook availability is notoriously spotty even now. We have members from at the least the U.S., Canada, the U.K., Australia, Italy, I think I've seen at least one person from a Scandinavian country and another from a smaller Asian country, and many others when you include those I might've missed and members who vote but post infrequently and the ever-evolving membership. In fact, I just now after writing that decided to check a few and looked at some locations of voters in the December thread; I checked less than twenty random ones and was actually surprised at the diversity: besides those already mentioned, I found two from Germany, and ones from Switzerland, Spain and India.

If we try to find books available in all those countries, we'll have an extremely limited amount to choose from, mostly only books in the public domain everywhere.

Also, I find that so far, the checking and mentioning of availability of specific countries has been and probably will continue to be erratic. I think those who post about a book not being available in their country often just check ones they are most interested in, and then comment if it's not available.

Which would be fine, except for the fact that I think others not from that region tend to feel bad and then proceed not to nominate or vote for that book. It's not a rule and sometimes people vote for a book regardless but I've noticed that many books that someone complains about an availability problem suddenly loses steam completely.

The problem is in the erraticism of it all though. Random books are just singled out. For instance, I went to the November thread and used Amazon to check the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australian availability. Guess what? FIVE of our ten nominees weren't available in at least one of those countries. That's HALF of our nominees, including both that tied for first place. Yet there may have been other nominees discounted beforehand because someone complained it isn't available in their region, but that person never checked on the books that did make it in that aren't available in their region.

Also, just to broaden our perspective, I chose to look at one other country and randomly picked India since it's a large country with a large English speaking population and we have at least one member from there, and it was easy to specify on Amazon. Guess what? TWO more books then become unavailable, leaving only three of the original ten nominees available in the five countries I checked (and that's not including the other countries our members come from).

One final thought as well - besides ebooks and paper library books, there is also the possibility of buying the paper book outright. Using this method, almost any book is available almost anywhere, at least the ones we would be nominating here. And usually for not too much either, compared to an ebook version. I know shipping can definitely be a factor for some countries, but it's still an option. For instance, Black Rain on ebay in the U.S. is only $7.05 at the moment with free U.S. shipping (I know that most of you who will need the paper book are in other countries but this was in direct response to Nyssa's post mentioning over $40 in library membership fees to get it where she lives).

Again, personally I want everyone to feel included and welcomed and I wish more ebooks were more consistently internationally available, but I don't like the erratic nature of certain books singled out as not being available in certain areas that derail their nominations when many other nominations aren't available in certain areas as well that never get pointed out. And to limit us to only books available everywhere would severely limit us.

So my personal thinking is that Tom's addition of various countries' ebook sites is fine and can be a help to certain members (though if he's adding for those countries he should consider adding some for other countries represented in our membership), but the idea of noting by a nomination where it's not available if pointed out seems (and has always seemed) erratic and unnecessary to me, unless we are going to check every nomination for the same availability, and even then, since others will often feel bad and not vote for a book not available somewhere, we will end up severely limiting our options.

Thank you for reading what is possibly my longest post ever.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:44 PM   #68
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Side Note: My pointing out Black Rain's library availability was in response to the multiple, sometimes snarky, "well there's this thing called a library" posts that have been thrown around. Thankfully, for me, I was able to purchase Black Rain in ebook format from Amazon. Even more thankfully, I was able to use a Christmas gift card for the purchase, since it wasn't my first choice.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:52 PM   #69
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Nyssa, I could have probably worded that paragraph better. I knew the ebook was available to you but since I really couldn't say exactly how much Black Rain would be to many random countries, I thought using the U.S. price as an example by segueing into your post would work well enough.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:54 PM   #70
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Nyssa, I could have probably worded that paragraph better. I knew the ebook was available to you but since I really couldn't say exactly how much Black Rain would be to many random countries, I thought using the U.S. price as an example by segueing into your post would work well enough.
No problem. I just wanted to make sure that the point I was trying to make was clear.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:57 PM   #71
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Here is what I think about all of this:

- big snip, I apologize -

If we try to find books available in all those countries, we'll have an extremely limited amount to choose from, mostly only books in the public domain everywhere.

-snip, once more-


Thank you for reading what is possibly my longest post ever.
Sun Surfer, if this was your longest post yet well done on it.

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I'm really not sure if you are being serious or not.

It is not unreasonable to ask that a book club being held by a site dedicated to e-reading offer selections that are available in e-book format. It is also not unreasonable to make efforts to help all of our members find copies of said book.

I don't know why adding links to a post is causing concern. No rules have been added or changed. No one is required to do anything more than we've already done, except to say when a book is not available in e-book format in their country.
I was being quite serious, and for the reasons well stated by Sun Surfer. If availability as an ebook to everyone is to be a major factor in book acceptability, then let us have the basic rule make it so.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:07 PM   #72
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Sigh.. What sun surfer said (much more succinctly than my rant).

The fact that a nominated book is not available as an ebook in your location *shouldn't* be a reason ignore that book (it *should* be available in the nominators location). I beginning to see, sadly, that the trend is that direction.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:15 PM   #73
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So my personal thinking is that Tom's addition of various countries' ebook sites is fine and can be a help to certain members (though if he's adding for those countries he should consider adding some for other countries represented in our membership), but the idea of noting by a nomination where it's not available if pointed out seems (and has always seemed) erratic and unnecessary to me, unless we are going to check every nomination for the same availability, and even then, since others will often feel bad and not vote for a book not available somewhere, we will end up severely limiting our options.
The idea for this came from the posts saying that some could not get Black Rain as an eBook. The idea is not to disqualify any nominations that are not in every country. Just to point out where it can and cannot be found. You can still nominate a book that is only an eBook in the US. But people outside the US may or may not vote on it based on the availability as an eBook. That is their choice. Or I could nominate a book I have as a pBook but is only available in the UK. Nothing says I have to nominate a book that's available as an eBook in the USA. As long as it is an eBook someplace legally, it's a valid nomination (as long as the book fits otherwise).

I was not trying to make it so every book has to be an eBook in every country. I could vote for a book I want to read that I cannot get as an eBook but would be perfectly OK with reading as a pBook. But it is an issue with I want a book as an eBook and it's not available. My vote would then be wasted.

As it seems, some do not check before voting if the book is available in the format they want until after it wins and by then it's too late.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:17 PM   #74
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I was being quite serious, and for the reasons well stated by Sun Surfer. If availability as an ebook to everyone is to be a major factor in book acceptability, then let us have the basic rule make it so.
I still don't see the harm in adding the links to the post. And where was it said that an ebook had to be available everywhere? The only suggestion that seemed to come even close to that was Jon's saying:

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Books have been disqualified for not being available as an eBook in at least one country.

But I do think it would be good to list the countries a nomination is available in so we won't be having the Black Rain dilemma. People then won't have to go scrambling to try to find a copy as they can vote based on interest and availability.

I'm of the mind that if an eBook is not available in at least Canada, UK & USA that it not be allowed.
I think most of us would agree that that finding a book available everywhere would be pretty impossible.

As to Jon's suggestion, I said that I liked it. If, however, having a rule about books being available in ebook format in those three regions completely diminishes the nomination process, then I will withdraw my support of that suggestion.

But I think the links to should stay.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:19 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by jgaiser View Post
Sigh.. What sun surfer said (much more succinctly than my rant).

The fact that a nominated book is not available as an ebook in your location *shouldn't* be a reason ignore that book (it *should* be available in the nominators location). I beginning to see, sadly, that the trend is that direction.
But nobody said it should!!! * sigh* How do these things even start. At no point did anybody say that the book has to be available everywhere.
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