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View Poll Results: Should voting results be hidden or visible in 2012?
All Book Club Polls in 2012 should be Hidden. 17 47.22%
All Book Club Polls in 2012 should be Viewable. 7 19.44%
Each month, we should alternate between Hidden and Viewable. 10 27.78%
Other (Please explain in comments). 2 5.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-23-2011, 10:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
When you go with that logic, hidden still wins.
We'll see, Jon.

And for those who haven't seen the run-off poll, it's here.
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:39 AM   #47
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I don't understand - there were three distinctly different possibilities to chose from, and the vast majority agreed on possibility #1 and wants all Book Club Votes to be hidden. How can there be a need for a second poll? Adding #2 to #3 seems to me like adding apples to pears.
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Old 11-24-2011, 01:05 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by lila55 View Post
I don't understand - there were three distinctly different possibilities to chose from, and the vast majority agreed on possibility #1 and wants all Book Club Votes to be hidden. How can there be a need for a second poll? Adding #2 to #3 seems to me like adding apples to pears.
It was apparent to me that very few wanted all votes to be visible before the end of voting, but several people wanted to mix it up from month to month. I thought the best way to discover exactly how many people wanted a mix verses those who want all votes to be hidden until voting ends every month was to put up a second poll with only those two options. For the record, although it makes no difference to me from the standpoint of extra work (it's really not), I don't care for the alternating option. I'd rather have all hidden votes, and that's how I voted in the poll. But I want to be fair and make sure that's what the majority wants.

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Originally Posted by issybird View Post
I hope that, if their votes will make a difference, that those who have voted for all open voting will get their votes changed to the compromise category. Half a loaf, etc.
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Originally Posted by Hamlet53 View Post
...I would agree. In fact “Each month, we should alternate between Hidden and Viewable” and “All Book Club Polls in 2012 should be Viewable” should be combined in comparison to “All Book Club Polls in 2012 should be Hidden”
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Yup. Because to state the obvious, those are the votes opposed to a hidden vote only. If it turns out that's the majority, it would be a travesty to ignore that.
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:05 PM   #49
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I am really not sure where the best place to post this is, but I’ll do it here since I don’t want to confuse the poll threads still open and the “administration” thread is mostly about category months.

There are a few things I think we should discuss now.

Number One: Tiered Voting

There’s been a good bit of discussion about various voting schemes over the months. Most aren’t feasible (ranked voting, etc.) because they’d require polling features that we don’t have.

But the idea of “tiered” voting has come up again and again, and it is feasible. “Tiered” means we’d have a poll just like the one now, with ten nominations. However, that poll would be to decide the top two. Then, once the poll is over and the top two are decided, we’d have a run-off poll just between those two.

A concern for many about this idea is the extra work for the leader (now Tom). This is true; it is extra work. This is why, before bothering to write this post, I talked with Tom and he said it was fine to bring up the idea of tiered voting.

I’m bringing this up because I’m seeing it being discussed already, and if we’re going to discuss it, I think it’s better now than later. If we did ever decide to try it, better now at the start of a year rather than bringing it up again like in April.

Here are two posts from the newer hidden/open poll thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billi View Post
As always here, it's not about the devices, it's not about brands, it's not about polls, it's about reading. So let's see how many people actually will read the chosen books and participate in the discussion afterwards. If there is a significant difference...<snip>
Billi is referring to open vs hidden polling, but the post speaks very well about tiered vs non-tiered as well. ”How many people actually will read the chosen books.”

With the way we do it now, the winning book usually receives support in the teens. The other 80-something percent of the club may or may not choose to go along and read the book. As we’ve seen in some discussion threads, apparently sometimes they choose not to.

With tiered voting, the winning book will always have at least more than fifty percent support - a majority. This may lead to more people reading and discussing the winning book each month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by issybird View Post
<snip>In any case, this is just an instance of two-tier voting, where the top two options have a run-off. An entirely legitimate and FAIR method of voting. There's a faction that would like to see two-tier voting for the selection each month, too.
And here are three posts from this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet53 View Post
<snip> If we really wanted the book most people would want as a first choice to achieve this with the current polling software limitation the procedure would be a preliminary vote as is done now (open or closed) and then a head-to-head contest between the top two in the first poll. <snip>
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Originally Posted by narflet View Post
<snip> after more thought this stv/run-off type vote would actually be my first preference.<snip>
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Originally Posted by Kevin8or View Post
We could have hidden vote, followed by a runoff vote of the top two choices. The runoff vote would mitigate the "wasted vote" problem. OTOH, adding a run-off might be a case of "making a mountain out of a molehill."
In a way I agree with Kevin8or about the molehill, but as it is, we’ve already been on that molehill mountain anyway before this even came up. I personally think leaving it as one poll of ten like it is now is fine enough, but since we’re already talking about this and since tiered voting does seem like it could be better, and since if we don’t discuss this now then it will surely come up again (and again) later anyway, so why not let’s settle it now?

So I propose a discussion and poll on the idea. If more are in favour of it, we could try it a year and see how it goes, and if more people are against it, then fine, but at least it’ll be settled so we won’t have need to discuss it again, at least for a a year. And that brings me to my next point of discussion...

Number Two: I Propose A Moratorium On Changes For A Year

Right now seems like a good time to make any changes we may want being that the new year is right around the corner, but I think most will agree that it seems like we’ve discussed and debated club mechanics a lot this year. And if able to, we may discuss and debate and have polls on them a lot next year too.

So I propose that once the new year starts, there will be no changes until the end of next year at the earliest. This will make things much easier for Tom (he won’t be having to deal with people requesting something about the club changed every other month) and I hope will be a welcome relief for members.

Of course, I suppose anyone could still really discuss/debate at any time if they wanted, but there’d be the security and ease of knowing that there’s no need to worry about any actual changes (or polls on changes) happening, at least for a year.

So what does everyone think?
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:26 PM   #50
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Both the tired voting and the moratorium sound good to me.

I would suggest a closed initial poll to run for 5 to 7 days and then a run-off poll (either open or closed) for 3 to 5 days.
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Old 11-26-2011, 12:33 AM   #51
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sun surfer, thank you for the well-explained post. I have condensed your two main points to the below (EDIT: including the suggestion by Kevin8or) and agree to the proposals, especially Number Two.

Number One: Tiered Voting
We could have hidden vote, followed by a runoff vote of the top two choices. EDIT: this was suggested by Kevin8or

Number Two: I Propose A Moratorium On Changes For A Year
So I propose that once the new year starts, there will be no changes until the end of next year at the earliest.

Last edited by dreams; 11-26-2011 at 04:06 AM. Reason: Added Edit comments
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Old 11-26-2011, 03:58 AM   #52
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Quote:
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sun surfer, thank you for the well-explained post. I have condensed your two main points to the below and agree to the proposals, especially Number Two.

Number One: Tiered Voting
We could have hidden vote, followed by a runoff vote of the top two choices.

Number Two: I Propose A Moratorium On Changes For A Year
So I propose that once the new year starts, there will be no changes until the end of next year at the earliest.
Surfer didn't say that the initial vote should be hidden. No reason it can't alternate, especially if that wins the current poll.

I'm in hearty agreement with his second proposal.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by issybird View Post
Surfer didn't say that the initial vote should be hidden. No reason it can't alternate, especially if that wins the current poll.

I'm in hearty agreement with his second proposal.
Thank you for catching that. I have gone back to my post and gave credit to Kevin8or in my EDIT sections.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:22 AM   #54
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It seems to me it would be better to keep the contentious issue of open v closed outside of consideration of the merits of surfer's proposal. It is irrelevant and will only muddy the waters, as well as possibly create even more ill-feeling than already exists. They are two separate issues.
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Old 11-26-2011, 06:28 AM   #55
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Nobody said we were doing a tiered voting with this vote. So then we get a tiered vote that we didn't know of, didn't want, and didn't need. We have a clear winner. It's not even close enough to warrant a run-off vote. So why are we having a run-off vote? As I explained in the other vote thread, given the convoluted illogical that got us to the tiered vote, using the exact same illogical, we don't need a run off-vote. Nothing is close enough to any other result that warrants this.

Please explain how this tiered vote is needed because when it's looked at from both sides, hidden votes still is the clear winner.
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Old 11-26-2011, 02:23 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyssa View Post
I would suggest a closed initial poll to run for 5 to 7 days and then a run-off poll (either open or closed) for 3 to 5 days.
Thanks for taking the initiative to consider how long the polls should be. Looking at it, more people may want the slightly shorter polls to leave more time for reading.

We could do, for instance, an initial poll of three or four days and a run-off poll of three days. That would make a total of six or seven days, only one or two days more than our current system. That would still get us done before the end of the month with days to spare.

Really though, I like your suggestions on length too and I'd be up for any length Tom and the group see fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreams View Post
Number One: Tiered Voting
We could have hidden vote, followed by a runoff vote of the top two choices. EDIT: this was suggested by Kevin8or
Thank you for condensing the points, dreams!

I would suggest, though, that we leave "hidden" or "open" out of it for now so as not to confuse the issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Nobody said we were doing a tiered voting with this vote. <snip> Please explain how this tiered vote is needed because when it's looked at from both sides, hidden votes still is the clear winner.
Jon, you're talking about a separate issue. The poll on hidden/open just happened to become tiered and has nothing to do with whether we should use tiered for our selections each month. People have been suggesting tiered voting off and on for months.

Last edited by sun surfer; 11-26-2011 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:48 PM   #57
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Thanks for taking the initiative to consider how long the polls should be. Looking at it, more people may want the slightly shorter polls to leave more time for reading.

We could do, for instance, an initial poll of three or four days and a run-off poll of three days. That would make a total of six or seven days, only one or two days more than our current system. That would still get us done before the end of the month with days to spare.

Really though, I like your suggestions on length too and I'd be up for any length Tom and the group see fit.
I think 3 days for the initial poll might be too short of a time. We could keep it 5 days like it is now, but limit the run-off to 3 days, making it 8 days total.

Nominations seem to only take a day or two, so that takes the whole process to 10 days.

As people are gearing up for the discussions of the current month, they can be thinking of their nominations for the next month. Its a lot to plan but its doable.

I would like to suggest maybe starting the nomination process for the next month around the 15th of the month, while keeping the discussions for the current month at starting on the 20th.
If things go smoothly we'd be done and dusted around the 25th of the month, meaning it would work for February as well.
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Old 11-26-2011, 07:42 PM   #58
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I really like the idea of a two tier polling system. Among other advantages I see in it is that, assuming that the number of people voting in the second poll does not drop of greatly from the number that participated in the first, it will mean in general that a lot more people will have voted for the winning book. I know it is speculation, but it seems to me that this could lead to a greater number actually participating in the book discussion given that more will have actually voted for the book under discussion. That to me is what is really the important thing to seek.

I agree with others that the open versus hidden polling question is a separate issue that is being settled in the poll in this thread.

I agree with those who have suggested that the increased number of days for the entire selection process of book-of-the-month for the following month can be accommodated by allowing this process to overlap the discussion period of the book for the current month.

I love!, love!, love! the idea of settling all issues regarding the book club for next year now. This does not just include this debate over the polling process, but other issues as well. I believe that the issue of having two months devoted to classics was decisively settled here: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...hlight=classic Let's also settle the issue of whether books of any sort may be nominated regardless of the monthly category and the related issue of just how many times a year the same book may be nominated. Get all this settled and then for the next year repeated debates on these issues will not be necessary.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:21 PM   #59
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Only two days left for the Voting Polls: Always hidden, or alternate? Run off poll!!

Make your voices heard.

36 people voted in this poll but only 22 have voted, so far, in the run-off!
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Old 11-27-2011, 08:23 AM   #60
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Thanks, Nyssa. As it stands, it looks like we'll be alternating from month to month unless more votes come in for hiding all votes until the polls close option. Personally, it appears that votes have been much closer with the hidden option as more people are voting their heart rather than the lesser of two evils.
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