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View Poll Results: Should we change one of the classic months to another genre?
Yes - Change it 12 30.77%
No - Leave it as it is 20 51.28%
Either way is fine with me 7 17.95%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-26-2011, 02:13 PM   #46
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The WWI demarcation makes more sense to me than WWII (1939). In terms of an absolute cataclysm in culture and society, WWI gets the nod. And since it's earlier, it gives more scope to books for the modern classic category. Because I really do think we want a cut-off date (implied if not explicit).
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:20 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
Classic - pre World War 1 (pre-1939)

this would be the month for those great books written long ago that you can still buy at borders. Most will be in the public domain so people can download them for free.

Modern Classic - post World War I

this would be your On The Road, Catch-22, A Canticle for Liebowitz, Harry Potter, Hitchhickers Guide, etc. This can also include those Pulitzer prize winners as well.
I will argue against this. The poll has shown so far that there is a majority fine with things the way they are. There is a very vocal minority (two people) who desperately want change. Others may agree with them, but again, it seems so far that they are in the minority.

To divide classics to assuage a few is to limit the categories more. If the group wants a modern classic during a classic month, one or more may be nominated and will be voted on and one will win.

If anyone desperately wants a "modern classic" category (or prize-winning category, or whatever), then I suggest we look at another category besides the two classics to get rid of, since the poll so far has clearly shown support for two general "classic" months.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Nyssa View Post
But "Classic" in itself limits ones choices...so there is still an increase in the chance of having something labeled as "classic". The fact that all of the genres can also have something "classic" strengthens my case :

January
Wild Card (no nominations, a vote of all the non-winning nominations from the last 11 months)

Classic - 1; Non Classic -1

February

Romance

Classic - 2; Non Classic -2

March
Nonfiction

Classic - 3; Non Classic -3

April
Humor

Classic - 4; Non Classic - 4

May
Classic

Classic - 5; Non Classic - 4

June
Thriller/Suspense

Classic - 6; Non Classic - 5

July
Fantasy (trees/magic)

Classic - 7; Non Classic -6

August
Free For All (any genre)

Classic - 8; Non Classic - 7

September
Mystery/Crime

Classic - 9; Non Classic - 8


October

Horror

Classic - 10; Non Classic - 9

November

Science Fiction (rivets/science)

Classic - 11; Non Classic -10

December
Classic

Classic - 12; Non Classic -10



12 to 10 = Advantage = unequal opportunity.
You could do this with any category though, so the argument is a fallacy.

For instance, let us take sci-fi. You could have a sci-fi romance, a sci-fi comedy, a sci-fi classic, and so on, but you can't have a non-sci-fi sci-fi book. So the advantage will always be against the "non" regardless of category in this type of argument.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:29 PM   #49
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I will argue against this. The poll has shown so far that there is a majority fine with things the way they are. There is a very vocal minority (two people) who desperately want change. Others may agree with them, but again, it seems so far that they are in the minority.
First of all, 11, so far, have voted for change, not 2.

Second, PilotBob, in the spirit of community, is offering a compromise.

You are free to take it or leave it.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:33 PM   #50
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You could do this with any category though, so the argument is a fallacy.

For instance, let us take sci-fi. You could have a sci-fi romance, a sci-fi comedy, a sci-fi classic, and so on, but you can't have a non-sci-fi sci-fi book. So the advantage will always be against the "non" regardless of category in this type of argument.
Do the math again.

SciFi Classic-1
SciFi Romance-2
SciFi Humor-3
SciFi Thriller-4
SciFi fantasy-5
SciFi Free for all - 6
Scifi Mystery- 7
SciFi-Horror- 8
SciFi WILD Card -9

9 is less than the 12
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:37 PM   #51
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I'd be more sympathetic to the idea of compromise under either of two conditions:

If compromise had been sought instead of forcing things to a vote, with a sense that people were taking into consideration all viewpoints and not just their own dislikes, it would have been far better.

If the vote (and it might change) were closer. Again, I don't like to see a bare majority dictate terms. But at close to 2/3 of those who have a preference who have explicitly voted no change, to force a change on them invalidates the poll.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:39 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Nyssa View Post
First of all, 11, so far, have voted for change, not 2.

Second, PilotBob, in the spirit of community, is offering a compromise.

You are free to take it or leave it.
But only two have pressed the issue. I've said this before, but, for example, if I decided to take up a crusade against a Comedy month to the point of having a poll, I bet it would have more than one agreeing with me too.

I do not see a need to compromise. If the poll had gone the other way or if it still does, I would and will accept the results graciously.

As I see it now, the results are clearly saying "leave the two classics months alone" but because of the very vocal opposition, pilotbob is still offering alternatives to try to assuage you. I respect you and JSWolf and your opinions, but I don't think that that's fair or necessary, honestly.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:55 PM   #53
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But only two have pressed the issue. I've said this before, but, for example, if I decided to take up a crusade against a Comedy month to the point of having a poll, I bet it would have more than one agreeing with me too.

I do not see a need to compromise. If the poll had gone the other way or if it still does, I would and will accept the results graciously.

As I see it now, the results are clearly saying "leave the two classics months alone" but because of the very vocal opposition, pilotbob is still offering alternatives to try to assuage you. I respect you and JSWolf and your opinions, but I don't think that that's fair or necessary, honestly.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle! You haven't been JUST as vocal? Respecting others' opinions is accepting that they have them, not complaining that they do!
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:16 PM   #54
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But only two have pressed the issue. I've said this before, but, for example, if I decided to take up a crusade against a Comedy month to the point of having a poll, I bet it would have more than one agreeing with me too.
I haven't pressed it, but I'm very strongly in the "would prefer to change the 2nd classics month category" camp. The whole point of categories is to cover a broad range of topics and expose people to books they might not have considered reading, but with high recommendations might try. Doubling up any of the categories works against that.

I don't care if they get changed to two different subgroups of classics (which works because classics is such a huge and nebulous category--while theoretically any of those books could be nominated now, splitting the category could encourage people to read a type of classic they normally wouldn't), or a different non-genre category (magazine, cookbook, college textbook, creative commons ebook), or an unrepresented genre. I'd just like to see 12 months of different types of books, even if a lot of books would qualify under more than one month.

I'll accept the vote; if more people would like two months of classics than the extra variety, that's fine. But it's not just two people who aren't happy with two months of classics, and it's not all for the same reasons.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:23 PM   #55
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I haven't pressed it, but I'm very strongly in the "would prefer to change the 2nd classics month category" camp. The whole point of categories is to cover a broad range of topics and expose people to books they might not have considered reading, but with high recommendations might try. Doubling up any of the categories works against that.

I don't care if they get changed to two different subgroups of classics (which works because classics is such a huge and nebulous category--while theoretically any of those books could be nominated now, splitting the category could encourage people to read a type of classic they normally wouldn't), or a different non-genre category (magazine, cookbook, college textbook, creative commons ebook), or an unrepresented genre. I'd just like to see 12 months of different types of books, even if a lot of books would qualify under more than one month.

I'll accept the vote; if more people would like two months of classics than the extra variety, that's fine. But it's not just two people who aren't happy with two months of classics, and it's not all for the same reasons.


Thank you Elfwreck. I agree with all you've said (although I'm no so sure on cookbooks ).
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:34 PM   #56
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Talk about the pot calling the kettle! You haven't been JUST as vocal? Respecting others' opinions is accepting that they have them, not complaining that they do!
You are correct that I've been vocal, but I think I've also been very gracious. I've said time and again that I'm fine with whatever way it goes, but that I am still giving my opinion.

Also, my very vocal opinions are in response to very vocal opinions that I originally thought were of someone trying to push something through by sheer force of will, and I still do think that. So basically, my vocality is in defence of a position that I think others share but hardly anyone else save one other is continually willing to counter arguments with over and over and over again.

That said, my response wasn't about you two being vocal. It was about fairness and necessity. If the poll shows that the majority is fine with two classics, then there is no reason to change or modify that then.

Pre-poll, "modern classic" and "prize-winning" were offered as alternatives to a second "classic", if it was decided not to keep a second classic. So far the results are showing support in favour of keeping the second classic. So if the poll results stay the same, to still change the second classic to "modern classic" or "prize winning" or whatever is to invalidate the poll in my opinion.

Last edited by sun surfer; 07-26-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:39 PM   #57
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Actually, I'm with you on this, Jon, but it looks like the people have spoken and we lost. I would have preferred another non-fiction month, but that doesn't appear to be what the majority wants. Power to the people. Right arm. Or something like that.
So lets nominate non-fiction. But I am still going to nominate Harry Potter of we lose. There are a lot of classics that are not dull and boring. But we need to get people to realize this and stop picking the boring classics.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:41 PM   #58
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I'll accept the vote; if more people would like two months of classics than the extra variety, that's fine. But it's not just two people who aren't happy with two months of classics, and it's not all for the same reasons.
Of course not only two people are unhappy with two classics. The point I was making is that the same could be said for any category or combination thereof.

I bet if we had a poll about combining sci-fi and fantasy together, it would get a fair amount of support and people coming out of the woodwork to argue why they should be combined. It probably wouldn't win, but it would get support, same as what's happening so far with two classics.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:49 PM   #59
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You are correct that I've been vocal, but I think I've also been very gracious. I've said time and again that I'm fine with whatever way it goes, but that I am still giving my opinion.

Also, my very vocal opinions are in response to very vocal opinions that I originally thought were of someone trying to push something through by sheer force of will, and I still do think that. So basically, my vocality is in defence of a position that I think others share but hardly anyone else save one is continually willing to counter arguments with over and over and over again.

That said, my response wasn't about you two being vocal. It was about fairness and necessity. If the poll shows that the majority is fine with two classics, then there is no reason to change or modify that then.

Pre-poll, "modern classic" and "prize-winning" were offered as alternatives to a second "classic", if it was decided not to keep a second classic. So far the results are showing support in favour of keeping the second classic. So if the poll results stay the same, to still change the second classic to "modern classic" or "prize winning" or whatever is to invalidate the poll in my opinion.

Your feelings on the matter are fine except that you added a "personal attack" to those who were vocal before you. You can try to call it whatever you want but your responses of late have not been gracious. No one was "forcing" anything, we were all making our opinions known. Saying "I was being vocal becuase he was being Vocal" is not a valid argument. Like I tell my children, two wrongs do not make a right, it just gets everyone involved in trouble.
PilotBob has graciously offered a compromise. Whether or not you agree with his offer, the fact that he made it should have been accepted for what it was. The idea should not have been jumped all over. As the senior member/leader of this club it was his offer to make; just like when it comes to the Literary Book club it would have been your offer to make since you started that club.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:04 PM   #60
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Your feelings on the matter are fine except that you added a "personal attack" to those who were vocal before you. You can try to call it whatever you want but your responses of late have not been gracious. No one was "forcing" anything, we were all making our opinions known. Saying "I was being vocal becuase he was being Vocal" is not a valid argument. Like I tell my children, two wrongs do not make a right, it just gets everyone involved in trouble.
PilotBob has graciously offered a compromise. Whether or not you agree with his offer, the fact that he made it should have been accepted for what it was. The idea should not have been jumped all over. As the senior member/leader of this club it was his offer to make; just like when it comes to the Literary Book club it would have been your offer to make since you started that club.
I have to disagree with you. I never meant anything as a personal attack and I think you've made some good points over the course of the discussion.

I think we're both being very vocal and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with it on either side. But I think Jon and then you being so vocal has confused things to a degree that it seems like more people are adamant about a change than really are.

At this point, if the poll results stay the same, I think to change the classic months in any way would be to invalidate the poll.

I do think pilotbob's offer was gracious to those not wanting two classic months, but I am giving my opinion that it doesn't seem necessary or fair considering the poll results so far.

However, he is the leader of the club so it is his decision to make. As I've said before, I'm fine with whatever is decided.
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