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Old 07-23-2011, 10:01 PM   #46
Elfwreck
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Originally Posted by Margrete View Post
a bit off topic, but do you have any spesific program you use when scanning books?
I usually scan with Acrobat Pro; sometimes I scan with FineReader. I'd love to find something that scans directly to multi-page tiff; I haven't found anything cheap (or less than $200) but I have to admit I haven't looked far, because I do have Acrobat and FR and, should I need it, some access to frighteningly robust scanning software & hardware at work.

For people who don't care to throw that much money at software (which is reasonable; I worked with them professionally for years before I decided to spend my own money on them), I like the diybookscanner system (which I haven't tried but intend to) and/or something like Irfanview, which is open-source, free, works portably (you can put it on a flash drive), and a lot more versatile than I've ever had the need to sort out.
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Old 07-23-2011, 10:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by lestatar View Post
You go to your local library and BORROW Opeth's new album or King's new book and you are NOT legally entitled to scan/format shift anything. You didn't BUY it.
You want to watch the end of a sports game on your TV. You didn't buy it. You tuned into it without owning any part of it--but you do have the right to copy it, format shift it so you can watch it later. This was upheld as a legal use of VCRs, and one of the reasons they were allowed to be sold. Time- and format-shifting was ruled to be fair use.

How is that different from "I borrowed a book for two weeks and scanned it so I could read it later, when I had more time?"
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Old 07-23-2011, 10:07 PM   #48
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I can only imagine how square and straight the crease in your pants is :P
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Oh, you slay me.
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Old 07-23-2011, 10:44 PM   #49
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I see where the OP is coming from. Most movies these days offer up to 3 different formats in the package-blu-ray, dvd and digital. Many cds include downloadable extras if you buy the physical package. Even video games come with perks for those who buy new.

I don't think you deserve a paperback copy but a fundamentally different format that (supposedly) costs next to nothing? A case can be made for it.

If publishers want customers to buy their products instead of just pirating them, they need to increase the perceived value of the product. Is one "entitled" to it? No. But I think it would certainly increase customer goodwill.

Whatever they choose to do, publishers are in the same situation that music publishers were in and they've got to adapt or die. Business as usual won't sustain them for very long.

One thing that I've always wondered: why are books never on sale? I'm not talking Amazon, I'm talking in-store. A book could be several years old but it'll sit there at full retail until it rots. Every other product has sales or price-drops, why not books?
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:07 AM   #50
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how does giving it away for free increase the perceived value?
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Old 07-24-2011, 12:29 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by xg4bx View Post
One thing that I've always wondered: why are books never on sale? I'm not talking Amazon, I'm talking in-store. A book could be several years old but it'll sit there at full retail until it rots. Every other product has sales or price-drops, why not books?
Where on earth do you shop?
Where I live books go on sale exactly the same as anything else when they have sat too long at their original price and it's time to move them on or when there is a generic X% off sale.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
You want to watch the end of a sports game on your TV. You didn't buy it. You tuned into it without owning any part of it--but you do have the right to copy it, format shift it so you can watch it later. This was upheld as a legal use of VCRs, and one of the reasons they were allowed to be sold. Time- and format-shifting was ruled to be fair use.

How is that different from "I borrowed a book for two weeks and scanned it so I could read it later, when I had more time?"
Copyright law specifies a difference in between broadcast and non broadcast works. If something is broadcast, anyone is legally able to receive it, and from that point it is as if you were legally granted a copy and the same rules for personal use copy apply. If you borrow a book, you do not own that copy, so do not get legal fair use.


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Originally Posted by fafaforza View Post
But then didn't someone else do the work to create a CD ripper program? You should therefore write your own CD ripping software as otherwise you're just pressing a button.

I don't see an issue with a free eBook if you own the physical book, no matter who ripped it. The end is the same.

I'm sure publishers wouldn't like it as I'm sure there are different profit ideas with print and ebooks.
The end isn't the same. The entire point is, you're not allowed to give out copies, period. It doesn't matter to who, or why. If you own a paper book, a friend also owns a copy, and made an ebook and gives you a copy of that ebook, you can legally have a copy for personal use, but your friend was the one who broke the law because he redistributed without permission. All the people who get snagged by the RIAA and MPAA for pirating movies and music online, they're getting in trouble for uploading to others, and not the downloading.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:38 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
You want to watch the end of a sports game on your TV. You didn't buy it. You tuned into it without owning any part of it--but you do have the right to copy it, format shift it so you can watch it later. This was upheld as a legal use of VCRs, and one of the reasons they were allowed to be sold. Time- and format-shifting was ruled to be fair use.

How is that different from "I borrowed a book for two weeks and scanned it so I could read it later, when I had more time?"
Very different IMO and my understanding. Please see Hellmark's response above.

I ain't no lawyer, but you are talking about apples vs oranges. Listen to the very end credits of NFL games though. Usually there is a voiceover warning specifically prohibiting the ..."duplication, broadcasting and re-transmission of this telecast without express written consent..."


Substitute "...borrowing, scanning and uploading/distribution of this book without express written consent..." for what we are talking about.

Last edited by lestatar; 07-24-2011 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:45 AM   #54
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Copyright law specifies a difference in between broadcast and non broadcast works. If something is broadcast, anyone is legally able to receive it, and from that point it is as if you were legally granted a copy and the same rules for personal use copy apply. If you borrow a book, you do not own that copy, so do not get legal fair use.



The end isn't the same. The entire point is, you're not allowed to give out copies, period. It doesn't matter to who, or why. If you own a paper book, a friend also owns a copy, and made an ebook and gives you a copy of that ebook, you can legally have a copy for personal use, but your friend was the one who broke the law because he redistributed without permission. All the people who get snagged by the RIAA and MPAA for pirating movies and music online, they're getting in trouble for uploading to others, and not the downloading.
^ This is exactly right and how I understand these matters, especially the end part. Not possible to nail every single downloader of U2's new CD, so do like America's "War on Drugs" attempts to do - go after the source, the dealers or the uploaders.

Of course, one significant thing that the MPAA and the RIAA fails to realize is exactly how miserable a failure the War On Drugs has been.

There will always be supply, always another drug dealer, always another Robin Hood uploader. Far better to deal with the demand, in this case, educating people on the evils of drugs and why grabbing copywrited, protected stuff for free might really be taking food out of other people's mouths.

Like I said, I ain't no angel, but I also have thousands of pbooks and CDs/DVDs that I have legitimately purchased in my lifetime.

'nuff said on this from me.
cheers,
-les

Last edited by lestatar; 07-24-2011 at 04:49 AM.
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:22 AM   #55
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^ This is exactly right and how I understand these matters, especially the end part. Not possible to nail every single downloader of U2's new CD, so do like America's "War on Drugs" attempts to do - go after the source, the dealers or the uploaders.
Well, its not just that, but rather the way the laws are written, it is the redistribution that is illegal.

Think of it this way. When going to court, proving whether or not you have an unauthorized copy is extremely difficult, and even if they could is almost inconsequential based on how most laws are written. Due to that, they have to base their court cases on the transaction, which in that case the person breaking the laws is the person doing the giving. You have to think of having, and receiving as two separate things. If you download, but never upload, the laws you broke come in to play once you have the file. Since they can only track, and easily prove the transfer, that other part doesn't come into play for the plaintiffs or prosecution. However, almost everyone downloading also uploads, due to how modern P2P networks are designed. You're uploading parts even before the file is finished downloading. Now, I'm probably making a mess of this, at which point if I am, I'll come back when I have slept.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:30 PM   #56
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Not that I disagree with you completely, but following the same logic... do you believe that when you buy the hardcover, you should be entitled to the paperback for next to nothing when it's released?

To me this is the best explanation so far. Even if I own the paperback, i do not get a second or 3 copy of that paperback free, never mind the hard cover, or audio version. Now any publisher that wanted to could offer that, but thats their right to call, and your right as a customer to call them up and request it (but they can and likely will deny siad request).
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Old 07-24-2011, 11:27 PM   #57
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Getting by illegal means another copy of something you already own and could easily live without seems a bit silly to me.

Aim higher, shoplift or rob a butcher shop. You already have hamburger, so why shouldn't you get a free steak?

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Old 07-25-2011, 12:52 AM   #58
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I don't see it as an obligation for the seller to offer a buyer a free electronic version of an book.

There are however publishers who offer either free or highly discounted e-books as an inducement to buy their print books. This is fairly common in with tech publishers like O'Reilly, No Starch, Apress, Informit, Manning etc. Several of them offer the opposite as well, buy an e-book and get the published book at a discount.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:54 AM   #59
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I don't see a problem in an author, publisher or bookseller packaging ebooks with printed books for a discount if they so desire. If I actually sold printed copies of my novels, I'd consider it too.

I do disagree, though, with the implied sentiment by some that an ebook is somehow of less (or no) value compared to a printed book. I see ebooks as a greater value than printed books, because of their higher portability and flexibility, and lower production and distribution costs. I have the same opinion regarding MP3s and CDs or albums. So suggesting that the physical media is somehow better or more valuable than the digital media is, to my thinking, backwards.

Regarding format-shifting: Yes, doing it yourself (and not allowing others to obtain copies, nor obtaining others' copies) is the only legal way to do it. True, it's a lot more of a pain in the neck with books, but that doesn't allow you to circumvent the law, any more than you are allowed to leave the road and drive through private property just because it's a shorter distance to your destination.

In short, I don't see that any consumer has a "right" to get a free product because they bought a different format of that same product. But any seller has the "right" to offer their product in bundles, discounts or deals if they so choose.

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Old 07-25-2011, 04:34 PM   #60
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Well if someone has made the eBook already and I download that, why is that any worse than if I created my own e-book? Are we suggesting that having to perform the labor of the media's creation legitimizes its ownership?
The law is a little silly in this regards. You're right, there really is no difference as far as you making your own eBook, or downloading one. Where there is a difference though, is that the person you download it from is committing copyright infringement. They're still breaking copyright law by being an unauthorized distributor, regardless of whether you as the downloader own the pBook.

So from the downloaders/scanners perspective it's the same thing. But the uploader shouldn't have been providing copies in the first place.
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