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Old 03-19-2008, 01:42 PM   #76
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Must I point out the obvious, that everything French people say in English sounds silly? I spend a lot of time in Quebec, and while I guess I wouldn't classify their French as a more pure version of the language, it is much easier on American ears. A more manly, cold-enduring, hockey-playing, poutine-eating bunch entirely.
I agree about the accent being more manly, which is a problem when it comes to a woman speaking.

I think you're right about French people sounding silly when speaking English, especially the French from France. I know of no other nationality that has more trouble pronouncing foreign words. This French buddy of mine, he was arguing with me about how to pronounce an English word. We asked a native English speaker, who confirmed my version. The French guy turns around and says it's the way the (English) word is pronounced in France, that is in "French" English, as if there were a particular dialect of English spoken in France, like US English or British English. He was serious, but I just laughed at him of course. Then I though about it, and you know what, I think he's on to something. Have you noticed how the French say "zee" instead of "the"? Well, say you were going to pronounce the word "the" in French. The regular way to pronounce it would sound something like "tuh" or "duh". Where do they get the z sound? They learned to pronounce it that way at school, from a non-native English speaker, who himself learned to pronounce it that way from another non-native English speaker... and this has become generalized in France. Only in France could this be possible, because only the French are proud and chauvenistic enough to think that their pronunciation of a foreign language is as valid as any other.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:07 PM   #77
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En arrivant le matin au bureau, je perds le plus de temps possible à lire des forums et des blogues, etc. Je recommence après l'heure du midi, d'où la présente réponse.
ha tiens j'aime bien faire ça aussi... même si mon bureau, en vrai, est à 5 pas de mon lit...

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Mais t'as jamais entendu parler de la biotechnologie, comme un ordinateur modelé sur le cerveau humain, composé de cellules (neurones)? Il est donc possible que le terme "cellulaire" devienne encore plus approprié dans l'avenir lointain.
bin, je suis pas sure, mais tu m'intrigues... ce serait genre tout plein d'ordis reliés entre eux qui se partagent les calculs pour former une espèce de "super computer" fractionné, comme on fait déjà ? ou tu parles d'autre chose ?

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Adopté: c'est ouïkende désormais.
je me dois de te préciser que je crois avoir piqué ça à Raymond Queneau, génie linguistique du néologisme absurde et génie tout court, que te recommande vivement (connu entre autres pour "Zazie dans le métro", dont le premier mot est : "Doukipudonktan !"). d'ailleurs, si tu n'as jamais rien lu de lui, vraiment, je sais pas ce que tu fous encore là : va-t'en tout de suite le découvrir !

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Autant je blâme mes compatriotes pour leur vocabulaire et leur syntaxe bâtarde, autant je dois les défendre lorsqu'on critique leur accent. L'accent est effectivement plus pur que l'accent parisien. Une démonstration: pourquoi utilise-t-on l'accent circonflexe? Les Français n'en font pas un cas et ils sont même prêts à l'abolir. Mais au Québec, l'accent circonflexe est indispensable. Par exemple, "pattes" et "pâtes" sont prononcés différemment. C'est vraiment drôle quand un Français se propose de manger des pâtes... est-ce qu'il veut manger des pattes de grenouille ou un spaghetti?
personnellement je tiens beaucoup au circonflexe mais je vois ce que tu veux dire. par contre, je connais certes des raisons pour en utiliser (pour marquer un "s" perdu (forêt, hôpital), pour distinguer entre 2 homophones (sur / sûr, du / dû)) mais à part que le circonflexe allonge éventuellement un peu sa voyelle (et encore...) je ne sais absolument pas comment ça pourrait modifier la prononciation !! tu vois pas le moyen de me transcrire un exemple ? ça m'intéresse sincèrement (je ne me moquais pas de l'accent ; rien qu'en france, entre les cakous du midi et les chtis sans oublier les banlieusards de la région parisienne ni surtout les titis authentiques, tu vas en trouver, des accents, et il y en a qui sont bien ridicules. après, c'est vrai que j'ai du mal à vous comprendre au début ! mais ça m'arrive en anglais avec un écossais aussi...).

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Mais pour le reste, c'est lamentable ce qu'on entend dans la langue parlée. Par ici, lorsqu'on parsème ses phrases de mots d'origine anglaise, c'est parce que le Québécois moyen a un vocabulaire à la fois trop limité et de mauvaise qualité.
alors là, tu me surprends beaucoup ; je croyais qu'au contraire, le québec défendait bec et ongles sa langue, au point d'innover en créant des néologismes spécifiquement français pour les nouveaux mots (il me semble que courriel par exemple est une création québécoise, et pas la seule), histoire justement d'éviter les anglicismes et le "franglais". franchement, je vous croyais limite plus virulents que l'Académie... et que du coup, forcément, cette langue qui vous est si chère, vous deviez la parler couramment, voire bien mieux que nous autres, devenus fainéants et un peu dégénérés... je suis vraiment étonnée de savoir que le français s'appauvrit à ce point là-bas, ça n'était pas mon impression. je trouve ça dommage...

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Heureusement, c'est pas mal vu d'utiliser des termes plus français quand on est assez instruit pour les connaître, pourvu que l'on n'adopte pas l'accent parisien, ce qui est vu comme pédant.
pff, pourquoi ça me surprend pas

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Old 03-19-2008, 07:08 PM   #78
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I think you're right about French people sounding silly when speaking English, especially the French from France. I know of no other nationality that has more trouble pronouncing foreign words. This French buddy of mine, he was arguing with me about how to pronounce an English word. We asked a native English speaker, who confirmed my version. The French guy turns around and says it's the way the (English) word is pronounced in France, that is in "French" English, as if there were a particular dialect of English spoken in France, like US English or British English. He was serious, but I just laughed at him of course. Then I though about it, and you know what, I think he's on to something. Have you noticed how the French say "zee" instead of "the"? Well, say you were going to pronounce the word "the" in French. The regular way to pronounce it would sound something like "tuh" or "duh". Where do they get the z sound? They learned to pronounce it that way at school, from a non-native English speaker, who himself learned to pronounce it that way from another non-native English speaker... and this has become generalized in France. Only in France could this be possible, because only the French are proud and chauvenistic enough to think that their pronunciation of a foreign language is as valid as any other.
personally, i think anglophones sound silly when they try to speak french... and even sillier, when they *pretend* to try to speak french.

i do think french people sound ridiculous when they pepper their speech with random english words (*why* ??) but more because it's pretentious and stupid.

however, i agree, France can be very arrogant when it comes to other languages ; the best example being, the creation of new french forms of proper nouns. A friend of mine who has family in Belgium tells the story of the first time she went to visit them. "Here is your ticket for the train," her mother told her ; "remember, you get off at Anvers." well, at every station she looked for Anvers, and she was still looking when the train came to the end of the line, because Anvers is actually named Antwerpen. i don't know if other languages do this as well but i think it's really confusing and in fact it seems a bit disrespectful to me.
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:21 AM   #79
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i do think french people sound ridiculous when they pepper their speech with random english words (*why* ??) but more because it's pretentious and stupid.
It's just as ridiculous the other way round, when English speakers toss in a word (usually horribly mispronounced) in French, for the same purpose, to sound what we in the South call "high-falootin'"

I have relations (who shall remain unspecified) who insist on pronouncing the word "bayou" as "bah you," instead of "by oh" like 'regular' folks. The really ironic thing is that, if I remember correctly, "by oh" is actually closer to the French pronunciation, and "bah you" is more of a Cajun pronunciation. So in their efforts to sound 'faincey' they actually sound more back-woods than they think everyone else does.
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:27 AM   #80
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ha tiens j'aime bien faire ça aussi... même si mon bureau, en vrai, est à 5 pas de mon lit...
Aujourd'hui je suis pas mal matinal, il est 5h24, mais je suis pas au bureau (problème d'insomnie). De toute façon, il fait tempête de neige donc j'irai pas travailler aujourd'hui. Les prévisions météo disent qu'on va recevoir notre 500e cm de neige de l'hiver, un nouveau record.

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alors là, tu me surprends beaucoup ; je croyais qu'au contraire, le québec défendait bec et ongles sa langue, au point d'innover en créant des néologismes spécifiquement français pour les nouveaux mots (il me semble que courriel par exemple est une création québécoise, et pas la seule), histoire justement d'éviter les anglicismes et le "franglais". franchement, je vous croyais limite plus virulents que l'Académie... et que du coup, forcément, cette langue qui vous est si chère, vous deviez la parler couramment, voire bien mieux que nous autres, devenus fainéants et un peu dégénérés... je suis vraiment étonnée de savoir que le français s'appauvrit à ce point là-bas, ça n'était pas mon impression. je trouve ça dommage...
Il faut nuancer. C'est vrai que le Québec en tant qu'État défend sa langue (plus ou moins selon le parti au pouvoir) et l'Office de la langue française a un rôle analogue à l'Académie, en plus de constituer la "police de la langue" au niveau de la francisation des entreprises et l'affichage commerciale. Mais c'est inexact de dire que le français québécois "s'appauvrit". Au pire il demeure pauvre et au mieux il s'améliore tranquillement. Le français que parlaient nos grand-parents est de moindre qualité, mais l'écart n'est pas très net. Rassure-toi pour l'instant, les Français parlent beaucoup mieux en général. Il me semble que le Français moyen parle aussi bien que le Québécois le plus érudit, alors que le Québécois moyen... c'est autre chose.
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:48 AM   #81
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I think you're right about French people sounding silly when speaking English, especially the French from France. I know of no other nationality that has more trouble pronouncing foreign words. This French buddy of mine, he was arguing with me about how to pronounce an English word. We asked a native English speaker, who confirmed my version. The French guy turns around and says it's the way the (English) word is pronounced in France, that is in "French" English, as if there were a particular dialect of English spoken in France, like US English or British English. He was serious, but I just laughed at him of course. Then I though about it, and you know what, I think he's on to something. Have you noticed how the French say "zee" instead of "the"? Well, say you were going to pronounce the word "the" in French. The regular way to pronounce it would sound something like "tuh" or "duh". Where do they get the z sound? They learned to pronounce it that way at school, from a non-native English speaker, who himself learned to pronounce it that way from another non-native English speaker... and this has become generalized in France. Only in France could this be possible, because only the French are proud and chauvenistic enough to think that their pronunciation of a foreign language is as valid as any other.
That's a load of crap. I know a lot of you do not like the french, a dislike that peaked when they did not want to play war games, but you can't generalize them like that.

Listen to germans speaking english ... half of them say "ze" instead of "the".
And I hear a lot of french people say "de" or "duh", as well as germans saying "de" ... and den dere's de mass of americans who clip de "the" rader short.

Hell, listen to you guys talk german, or french, or whatever. It sounds like shit too!
I work with a lot of native english speakers here in Austria (sound studio!), and even though they have spent more than a decade in this country, they still speak like they only had it for 2 years in college.

It's just a matter of a person's feeling for language that influences their dialect. Some like to sound native, and work on their pronounciation. Others just want to be understood, more or less, by the other, hence the minimal effort in pronounciation.

Most foreign-language teachers actually do spend time in the respective country and have pretty good skills when it comes to what the language should sound like. They're not native, even the kids will hear that, but most of the time they do not say it wrong.

I remember learning the "th" sound in school. "That's the only time you can stick your tongue out to the teacher and you won't get punished" was how they tried to get us to stick the tongue between our teeth.


I should explain: I was born in Austria, moved to Luxembourg, then Canada, then back to Austria. I have both the canadian and luxembourg citizenship, and if my avatar is not indication enough, I am glad that I have my feet planted firmly on both sides of the atlantic

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Yes, let's wholeheartedly agree to adopt unrecognizable, unpronounceable (to most) terms to replace recognizable, understandable terms already in use.
Hehe, this cracked me up

As for calling the device a liz-ooze ... it's enough that people don't know what it is, they shouldn't not know how to pronounce it as well.
ebook reader. there. final.

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Old 03-20-2008, 08:12 AM   #82
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That's a load of crap. I know a lot of you do not like the french, a dislike that peaked when they did not want to play war games, but you can't generalize them like that.
How odd that you should imply that I dislike the French. That's completely false.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that if a word contains the letters "th" in French, it is pronounced like a t, since the letter h is voiceless. For example, the word "anthropologie" is pronounced "antropologie."

Neither "t" nor "z" are equivalent to "th", but I think t is closer. So why do the French (or the Austrians or whoever) say "zee"?

In Quebec, a French-speaking province, people DO NOT say "zee". They pronounce it as a French-speaking person would pronounce a word formed by the letters "t-h-e" which sounds a little like "tuh" or "duh". How can you explain the difference between the way "the" is pronounced in Quebec and the way it's pronounced in France?

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Hell, listen to you guys talk german, or french, or whatever. It sounds like shit too!
Well, I admit my german sounds like shit, but I hope I can make myself understood in French, since it is after all my native language and that of my compatriots.

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Old 03-20-2008, 08:53 AM   #83
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MORES, we're teasing. Zelda is French, balok is French-Canadian... you've failed to apply passive emotifaction. Sheesh!
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:05 AM   #84
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So anyway, I think the French tongue is excellent . I love the sensuous way that the French move their lips when they are speaking, especially the ladies when they say 'une' - they always look like they want to kiss you. This is a drawback of course, because the French men do this also - which is okay if you are that way inclined. However, I'm not sure about this always kissing on the cheek as a greeting - spreads colds and flu I would have thought.

I do think some of you are showing-off somewhat with you bi-linguality, although I'm always jealous of people who speak in many tongues. At my Catholic grammar school we learned Latin, French and German. Latin, I found very useful especially when talking to God - for it is well known He speaks Latin very profusely. German, I found to be rather too gutteral - but that is my fault not the German people. French, I liked very much although I didn't like having to wear that beret and have those onions hanging around my neck - the cheese was very nice though. Also, whatever Taylor says, I think both the French men and women sound sexy when they speak English - it's just that I don't fancy the men.

Zelda, you ought to feel ashamed by making me believe you are not French with your beautiful English writing and idiomatic English phraseology - even though I knew you came from Paris. And don't be such a smarty-pants by speaking so much of your native language in future...hold on, that's not right - you are always being a smarty-pants by speaking English so beautifully..drat and bother. I will, however forgive you if you say something profound or witty in your native tongue [whatever that may be] when next we talk.

There was a device called liseuse
Whose name was pretentious and loose
So we changed it around
And modified the sound
Now we call it a reader with juice

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Old 03-20-2008, 01:56 PM   #85
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How odd that you should imply that I dislike the French. That's completely false.
I assumed your parting sentence
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Only in France could this be possible, because only the French are proud and chauvenistic enough to think that their pronunciation of a foreign language is as valid as any other.
didn't really have a lot of love in it. I didn't know you were french-canadian, sorry about that remark then.
I guess the "zee" comes from the attempt of saying the "th" but not doing it properly, too much air flows around the tongue making it sound like "zee".
Must be, since Germans (and Austrians) use it too.
And now I remember Luigi and Andrea from Italy, they too liked the "zee".

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Well, I admit my german sounds like shit, but I hope I can make myself understood in French, since it is after all my native language and that of my compatriots.


Now if only I'd be able to find out what passive emotifaction might be ...

EDIT: Found it in Post #56

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Old 03-20-2008, 02:00 PM   #86
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Now if only I'd be able to find out what passive emotifaction might be ...
Delve more deeply into the dark details of this discussion.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:04 PM   #87
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alluring alliteration, Taylor...

i see i have missed a lot today.

but i can't catch up yet, dinner first, i'm starving.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:11 PM   #88
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:16 PM   #89
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So you eat but not sleep, I see, I see!
I drink but don't think (I pee, I pee!)
What a pair we would be
on the streets of Paris
eating and drinking all night, mais oui!
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:46 PM   #90
zelda_pinwheel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NatCh View Post
Oh, so you eat, but not sleep, I see.
in fact, i sleep quite a lot, however rarely during socially acceptable hours. i also drink quite a lot when i get started : i have to live up to my polish origins .

as for the other bodily functions mentioned, i confirm that i am in fact anatomically correct. however, as i am an anatomically correct *girl*, i would rather not discuss it.

we could still make quite the pair, eating and drinking on the streets of Paris / other capital city of your choice.

poor mores, i fear he must have had quite the shock when stumbling unprepared across this thread for the first time. perhaps someone should issue some kind of warning, like "surrealist guidance recommended."

@ balok : 5h24, sans blague ? quelle horreur... ça, tu vois, c'est ce que j'appelle un supplice. ce matin le facteur à sonné à l'aube [EDIT : mais je me suis recouchée ensuite (j'ai oublié de terminer ma phrase !)] (je dois être la seule personne de la ville chez qui le facteur monte quand il a un colis pour moi ; c'est une longue histoire, je dirai juste qu'ils sont bien gentils et tout mais ils viennent toujours à l'aube et enfin merde, moi à cette heure-là je dors !) et 500 cm de neige ???? cinq CENT centimètres ??? CINQ METRES DE NEIGE ???? mais comment vous faites genre pour circuler ?? pour *vivre* ?? est-ce que tu stockes de quoi bouffer pendant 6 mois chaque année vers octobre, au cas où ? et c'est seulement *maintenant* que tu te calfeutres chez toi, je rêve... genre, "499 cm ça va, mais 500 c'est trop" ? *soupir* et moi qui appelle chaque hiver de tous mes voeux quelques petits flocons qui blanchiraient le temps de quelques heures les toits de ma ville, et qui suis régulièrement déçue (car il neige quasi jamais à Paris, et même quand ça tombe ça dure pas longtemps...). tu pourrais pas partager un peu ? quant au français de votre province je suis contente de savoir qu'au moins il se défend, qu'il s'accroche, voire qu'il s'enrichit...

ok, my first after dinner effort. possibly leaves to be desired, but i'm in the middle of my digestion so naturally not as quick-witted and sparkling as i usually am (right ?).

Last edited by zelda_pinwheel; 03-20-2008 at 05:57 PM. Reason: typo
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