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Old 06-19-2011, 05:22 PM   #16
Hamlet53
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Stopping in for a few more brief comments . . .

I apologize for not mentioning anything about cowardice being the greatest sin as the central theme. I wrote my response out before reading Toomanybooks's suggestion regarding that. I have to say that I did not see that as the particular central theme of the book, but then I obviously did not see some things in it that others did. I would agree that Margarita could be the bravest character in the book, though I would be more inclined to use the word reckless in her case.

I don't know, I just didn't see the book as some brilliant masterpiece in the canons of literature. I can't speak to whether or not this is Bulgakov's masterpiece as I have never read anything else by him. In fact until he was nominated for this month I had never even heard of him. ? The surreal aspect of the book did not put me off. Anyone who loves Kafka's writing as much as I do can appreciate the surreal. It is just that I always got something out of Kafka, even if it might no be what anyone else might. This book though I really got no more out of than what I have already stated. And I did not find it greatly humorous.

So I guess I do not see reading it again in an alternate translation, not with such a long TBR list, and other books once read that I would choose over this for reading again.

I am quite interested in what others not yet heard from will have to say. In the run-off this book received 22 votes. By my count at most a third of those have commented so far.
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:11 PM   #17
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I have a consideration about a particular aspect of the literary style employed by Bulgakov. I call it the theatrical style.

I observe that several key passages in the novel are accompanied by detailed description of the sky, of the weather, the light, the clouds, the storms, the lightnings, the thunder. These descriptions counterpoint the evolution of the episode, like in Chapter 2 where they are active in the changing moods of PP. Or they establish the dramatic set up of the episode, or they just function as a general, visual background to it.

I also observe that most of the episodes are developed through two main elements. The first one is a strong visual description related to the appearance, the clothes, the objects and the motions of the characters. The second one is the dialog.

I got the impression that Bukgakov did so drawing on his experience as a playwright, taking care not only of the plot, the characters, and the dialogue, but also by building on the various aspects of scenography, staging and direction of the play. He did not resort to explicit descriptions of a character nature, function or history except for the bare minimum.

The resulting narrative is stimulating for the reader, that is constantly invited to represent mentally the scene, its emotional color and mood. The understanding of the inner world of the story comes from within the reader with his own elements and references and is therefore more vivid than through explicit declarations. In a way it is the lesson of E.M. Forster according to whom is more important what is not said.

It is so rare to encounter an acclaimed playwright that doubles with a literary masterpiece.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:52 AM   #18
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The P&V translation has its place. I think it's good choice for someone reading M&M for the second time. You're spot-on about Glenny: it's the idiom he seeks to retain, and imo the music of the text, the essence.

A little comparison between bits from the opening:

P&V..

One of them, approximately forty years old, dressed in a grey summer suit, was short, dark-haired, plump, bald, and carried his respectable fedora hat in his hand. His neatly shaven face was adorned with black horn-rimmed glasses of a supernatural size.

And Glenny..

The first of them--aged about forty, dressed in a grayish summer suit-- was short, dark haired, well fed and bald. He carried his decorous hat by the brim as though it were a cake, and his neatly shaven face was embelllished by black, horn-rimmed spectacles of preternatural dimensions.

Glenny's text is playful and vibrant, two of the most important qualities of Bulgakov's writing, and that excerpt is a good example of what you'll find throughout his translation (for anyone interested).

But not only is the text more fluid and fun (imo), the difference captures something important. The "well fed" and "cake" imagery was deliberate class commentary on Bulgakov's part. Anyhoo, just my 2p. It's a great book in any translation.
I can see how "well fed" and "plump" may be translated differently, but "hat by the brim as though it were a cake" seems very different from the other translation. Did the Glenny's translation take more liberty, in this example, with the translation, or did the P&V just translate it poorly?

This was my first read of M&M, and I thought it was OK. I found some parts to be very enjoyable, but other parts just dragged. I read the P&V translation.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:16 AM   #19
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Stopping in for a few more brief comments . . .

I am quite interested in what others not yet heard from will have to say. In the run-off this book received 22 votes. By my count at most a third of those have commented so far.
Don't expect to hear a lot from me. I am not a writer and I'm certainly not a literary critic. I voted for this book and read it and I really believe I should have my voting privileges rescinded. In fact, I think I may have wandered into the wrong room.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:23 AM   #20
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Don't expect to hear a lot from me. I am not a writer and I'm certainly not a literary critic. I voted for this book and read it and I really believe I should have my voting privileges rescinded. In fact, I think I may have wandered into the wrong room.
Same with me. Although I plan on reading one of the top two choices, I probably won't participate in the discussion. Which brings me to my question, should people like me vote in the polls?

Thanks, and sorry for sidetracking the thread.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:35 PM   #21
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Same with me. Although I plan on reading one of the top two choices, I probably won't participate in the discussion. Which brings me to my question, should people like me vote in the polls?.
My Opinion (for what it's worth):

Certainly you should vote in the polls. I probably won't participate much in the discussions, but I enjoyed the book and I'm enjoying reading the various opinions that have been put forth so far. And I'll continue to vote, whether or not I end up reading each and every monthly pick.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:42 PM   #22
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Anybody who wants to vote should vote regardless. As an inveterate lurker I might be prejudiced in this matter.

Also I would love it if more people commented in the discussion. If the current discussion thread doesn't grab you please post something that does and let's see where the conversation goes.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:44 PM   #23
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My Opinion (for what it's worth):

Certainly you should vote in the polls. I probably won't participate much in the discussions, but I enjoyed the book and I'm enjoying reading the various opinions that have been put forth so far. And I'll continue to vote, whether or not I end up reading each and every monthly pick.
I feel the same.
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:08 PM   #24
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I can see how "well fed" and "plump" may be translated differently, but "hat by the brim as though it were a cake" seems very different from the other translation. Did the Glenny's translation take more liberty, in this example, with the translation, or did the P&V just translate it poorly?
When I read some of my favorite Japanese authors (I have a thing for Japanese authors) I am always aware that I am reading not just the original author, but the original author as rendered by the translator into English. A completely accurate [literal] translation might not present the book properly. Translation of literature is an art that requires more than just the ability to read and write in two languages. That said, and looking at the cited example, I don't think that an alternate translation of The Master and Margarita would change that much for me.


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Don't expect to hear a lot from me. I am not a writer and I'm certainly not a literary critic. I voted for this book and read it and I really believe I should have my voting privileges rescinded. In fact, I think I may have wandered into the wrong room.
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Same with me. Although I plan on reading one of the top two choices, I probably won't participate in the discussion. Which brings me to my question, should people like me vote in the polls?
I hope you change your minds. As far as I am aware there is no 'literary dress code' to enter the room, nor participate. If anything I think that this monthly book club, and the other original one, suffer from too little participation.

For what it is worth I also voted for The Master and Margarita, both initially when it was apparent that it was that or On the Beach, and again when it was definitely one or the other. I still think M&M was a better choice as I haven't altered my opinion that On the Beach is an unremarkable melodrama.
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:09 PM   #25
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...

Also I would love it if more people commented in the discussion. If the current discussion thread doesn't grab you please post something that does and let's see where the conversation goes.
Well...

The first half of M&M reminded me of many Stephen King novels; some sinister force working on an unsuspecting community. Although M&MN didn't have a typical King ending.
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:09 PM   #26
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My main question to others is not whether you got the book, but whether the text drew you in and engaged in a rewarding way? If not, what did the author do or fail to do that kept you from being drawn into the text?
Haven't had the peace of mind to put two thoughts together, but I'll try and see what comes out anyway...

The pleasure I got out of reading the book was primarily intellectual. I don't think I got to the point where I can say I loved it - I had to push myself a little to get through, especially in the first part. That said, it wasn't as if I had to force myself so much either. All the way through it was very entertaining.

It's the kind of book where it's clear that there's several levels apart from the basic narrative, and for me, part of the fun with such books is looking for "clues" and "hints". Here, for example, sparrows flies around in many scenes - why? People end up without their clothes numerous times, and it's usually highly embarrasing for them - why? There were several red haired people, the colour seemed specifically mentioned - references to Judas perhaps?

A thing I really liked about the book is Bulgakov's very visual language. I love when an author can make feel and smell and see and touch, and several scenes stood out, e.g. the black magic scene in the theatre and Margarita's (and Natacha's) witch flight. That was beautifully described.

I found the first part somewhat confusing to read. Lots of names, we switch from character to character, but I took my confusion to be partly intentional on the author's side, to stress the absurdity of life in Soviet Russia. I don't see the confusion as a lack in the book - he was working with strands of narrative, and I think they were put down and picked up again in a tempo that made one able to follow the story rather well, despite the jumping around. I think Bulgakov pulled it off.
I didn't get the humour that well. Probably while I can see the humour in absurdity, it's not native to me. The satire is though, and that was very good, indeed.

One thing that irritated me a bit, was the way women were described in comparison to men. There's a bit too many pretty secretaries with whom the men have affairs because their wives are haggard harridans. And what's up with all those naked women at the ball? It's probably just a reflection of gender and gender roles of a time past, but it kept annoying me like a pebble in my shoe.

Lucifer is always an interesting character - he's probably almost impossible to make boring. I was reminded of Robertson Davies who have tackled the devil too (though in a more "drawing room" kind of way).
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:19 PM   #27
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One thing that irritated me a bit, was the way women were described in comparison to men. There's a bit too many pretty secretaries with whom the men have affairs because their wives are haggard harridans. And what's up with all those naked women at the ball? It's probably just a reflection of gender and gender roles of a time past, but it kept annoying me like a pebble in my shoe.
I understand your feelings about women in the text. I was initially impressed that Bulgakov included two fleshed out female characters in the text, Margarita and Natasha, who had some agency in their lives. Then I realized how depressing it was there were only two female characters who were characters and not puppets in the plot machinations.
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:31 PM   #28
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John F.

I like your reference to Stephen King. It is a good reminder that while you can approach this text as a literary novel, it is layered text and can be read quite comfortably in many genres. It is has been classified since its publication by various people as a literary novel, obviously a devil story, a fractured Russian fairy tale and a political allegory to name a few.

I find it to be a very flexible text in that it can be read for many different purposes and different levels of enjoyment vs analysis. If you want to go scholarly the material is there to be worked with, but you can also leave that be and read it as a fun adventure to follow along with.
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Old 06-21-2011, 12:14 AM   #29
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I believe to understand The Master And Margarita the reader should be aware of what was happening in Russia. Woland is of course Stalin. The government rejects Christianity, illustrated with Pilate condemning Jesus, and makes a pact with the Devil --Woland.

Most of the ribald happenings show what is going on in the Communist world at that time. The whole thing becomes much clearer with a large glass of vodka.
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Old 06-21-2011, 02:12 AM   #30
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I believe to understand The Master And Margarita the reader should be aware of what was happening in Russia. Woland is of course Stalin. The government rejects Christianity, illustrated with Pilate condemning Jesus, and makes a pact with the Devil --Woland.

Most of the ribald happenings show what is going on in the Communist world at that time. The whole thing becomes much clearer with a large glass of vodka.
Do you mean the novel works as an allegory at this level? Because while I think I can see the point working for part 1, I can't see how it explains part 2 - especially the ending. Maybe you had one glass of vodka too much at this point?

While I certainly think it describes Stalinist Soviet, I have some difficulty fitting in Stalin. I know you're "supposed" to think so, but I don't see it...

Overall I think it's a Christian novel, and with Woland ultimately working for God.
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