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Old 05-20-2011, 05:39 PM   #61
Elfwreck
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Originally Posted by anamardoll View Post
We need an easily accessible database, fed by the publishers, containing a list of their titles, whether or not they are legally published in ebook form, and (ideally) links to those sites. Until then, we shouldn't be surprised if people accidentally download illegal copies from Google and Amazon.
No, we just need copyright info in books to be legally mandated to be *accurate.* It needs to say not just "copyright [company name] [year]," but "contents originally copyrighted [person name/company name] [year]; this edition's formatting copyrighted [company] [year]." Possibly, "Story 1 copyrighted [name] [year]; Story 2 copyrighted [name] [year]; Story 3 copyrighted [name] [year]," etc. Possibly with the country-of-origin mentioned. If it's BY-NC-SA, like Doctorow's works, that needs to be mentioned too. If the copyright owner doesn't have the right to give permissions to copy because of contracts, that needs to be mentioned, along with length of contract.

They need to tell us the actual copyright status of a work when they release it. Some things might still fall between the cracks, but that'd go a long way towards ending the problem of "is this in the public domain yet" and "are digital copies free to share?"

I understand it'd be hard to set up a database & manage access to it; someone would have to pay for that. (Technically, it should be the government. Which should require an archive copy of anything that's formally registered.)

Of course, what we really need is a complete overhaul of copyright law, with "fair use" much better defined, and the exceptions for library/archive copies clarified, and a strong tendency towards tolerating noncommercial copies. Because right now, quotebacks in emails could technically be sued as copyright infringement, and as long as that's the case, the law is too ridiculous to be taken seriously. The *attempt* of the RIAA to prosecute cellphone ringtones as "public performance" says that the law is badly broken.
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Old 05-20-2011, 06:46 PM   #62
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Why do we have to bring the government into a civil matter... copyright takes place at the act of creation... no need for a government (and doubtless expensive) database... if there's a post-facto problem over copyright and whether an item is PD then if a mistake is made then just compensate at normal commercial royalty rates...

By all means sort out and overhaul copyright law but what's the necessity to turn civil claims into criminal penalties...
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Old 05-20-2011, 06:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by anamardoll View Post
Well, then, perhaps you can clear up for me whether or not the two books I linked to are pirate copies, because I would honestly like to know.

Since you clearly consider yourself intelligent enough to know if they are pirated enough, you should be able to answer my questions about The Counter Creationism Handbook and the posted Brave New World copy.

Anxiously awaiting your response, and thank you.
I didn't say "know" I said "have a pretty good idea." And since I'm not interested in buying either book, I'll let you do your own research, thanks.
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:41 PM   #64
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Why do we have to bring the government into a civil matter... copyright takes place at the act of creation... no need for a government (and doubtless expensive) database... if there's a post-facto problem over copyright and whether an item is PD then if a mistake is made then just compensate at normal commercial royalty rates...
That'd be fine if there were any "normal commercial royalty rates."

What's the royalty on a book that's never been marketed as an ebook? (What's the cost for an epub version of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone? Should it be based on hardcover price, trade paperback, cheapest mmpb cost, or something else?)

How about a limited-print run book from a now-deceased author? (Used copies of Chumbley's Azoetia sell for about $1000 on ebay.)

And are they paid to the author (or heirs) or the publisher? (I'm not sure "royalty" is the right word, when it's "full cost of the book"--or does the publisher get cut out of this equation?)

If the publisher's gone, to whom are they paid? (I have The Unity Trilogy by Meisha Merlin... if I scan & convert it to an ebook, do I owe them, or the new publishers who owns the ebook rights?)
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:59 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by anamardoll View Post
And as *I* pointed out, Amazon was selling the book for $13 last year and ebooks.com is selling it for $17.
Read the customer reviews on Amazon for The Counter-Creationism Handbook. The last Kindle review indicated "the only criticism I have to this edition is that the typing is inconsistent. Some lines wander a bit looking like the foot prints of a drunk staggering along the sidewalk. Character spacing varies and the type face is crude. It's almost as if the manuscript was typed on a mechanical typewriter badly in need of maintenance and then copied in toto." Amazon pulled the Kindle book until the publisher repaired the copy. They still have not done that (apparently.)
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Old 05-20-2011, 08:22 PM   #66
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Normal = generally acceptable to both parties involved... as to what they should be based on... that's what the courts are for if you can't make your mind up or come to an agreement... and why change the terms of the discussion... Harry Potter books are hardly out of copyright so why should anyone scanning them be allowed without the author's permission...

Similarly for the rest of your "examples," your earlier comment was on how to deal with "accidental" downloads of still copyrighted material and mistakes concerning whether material was still copyrighted whereas your examples seem to deal with items clearly in copyright, straightforward illegal copying and rights ownership... items which current civil and contractual law is fully capable of handling...

And why ignore my last point, "By all means sort out and overhaul copyright law but what's the necessity to turn civil claims into criminal penalties..." which was the primary response to your expression of a need for more governmental interference...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
That'd be fine if there were any "normal commercial royalty rates."

What's the royalty on a book that's never been marketed as an ebook? (What's the cost for an epub version of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone? Should it be based on hardcover price, trade paperback, cheapest mmpb cost, or something else?)

How about a limited-print run book from a now-deceased author? (Used copies of Chumbley's Azoetia sell for about $1000 on ebay.)

And are they paid to the author (or heirs) or the publisher? (I'm not sure "royalty" is the right word, when it's "full cost of the book"--or does the publisher get cut out of this equation?)

If the publisher's gone, to whom are they paid? (I have The Unity Trilogy by Meisha Merlin... if I scan & convert it to an ebook, do I owe them, or the new publishers who owns the ebook rights?)
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Old 05-20-2011, 11:31 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by anamardoll View Post
And what I'm saying is that contrary to popular belief, The Darknet isn't LABELED "The Darknet".
I believe some of them have URLs that suggest they aren't fully legit and might be kind of piratey.

What I was trying to say (and not knocking your point about the issues with merchants listing iffy books) is that most illegal download sites are well known as such; you may not know you're getting a pirate copy at Amazon but you darn well know it if you are getting it from downloadbooksforfreefrompirates.com (I made that URL up but there are plenty sort of like it). And as far as I know, not a whole lot legal is torrented except by accident--legal stuff is more simply obtained and often of better quality.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:22 AM   #68
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I would imagine that the majority of those "grannies" started off downloading ebooks "illegally" to get the ebook versions of the books they already own. Personally, I don't have any problem with anyone doing that for that reason (no need to condemn my morals - consider it said and just move on ). Once that was done though, and the expertise was in place and the source sites discovered, the realization that "hey, I can get other books this way, or subsequent books by my favorite authors this way too" made it very easy to take that next step into full-blown "piracy".

Especially if, as was mentioned, the "granny" was already used to mixing music tapes, taping shows off the TV, downloading from places like Napster and Audiogalaxy in her misspent youth. All she has to do is take her peg leg, parrot and eyepatch back out from the box in the attic and she's set to go.



(Besides, don't you just love how it's labeled "piracy" when common folks do it, and just "good business practices" when companies rip off their customers or the government, or when the recording industry rips off their artists?)
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:32 AM   #69
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AMEN! Can you say double standard hypocracy! This is why I am starting to have fewer qualms about people pirating.

Every OLD 35 year old & over should do it just for being labled as grannies!

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(Besides, don't you just love how it's labeled "piracy" when common folks do it, and just "good business practices" when companies rip off their customers or the government, or when the recording industry rips off their artists?)
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:09 PM   #70
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(Besides, don't you just love how it's labeled "piracy" when common folks do it, and just "good business practices" when companies rip off their customers or the government, or when the recording industry rips off their artists?)
When companies rip off their customers there usually is an army of lawyers eager to sue them into oblivion. Actually even when they really have done nothing wrong. Even if that doesn't happen, they won't stay in business very long.

With Inkmesh, etc., it usually is very easy to get the best deal on any ebook, and if you feel the prices are too high --- just don't buy, Even if the above were all true, then I don't think bad behavior by others should be a justification to lower your own standards.
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Old 05-22-2011, 05:18 PM   #71
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Then again, what's to say that some people's "standards" aren't "lower" than others right from the get-go? So their behavior may be true to "their" standards.

There is always this underlying assumption in these threads that everyone's moral/ethical standards are somehow the same - or should be.

Last edited by Xanthe; 05-22-2011 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 05-22-2011, 05:36 PM   #72
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(Besides, don't you just love how it's labeled "piracy" when common folks do it, and just "good business practices" when companies rip off their customers or the government, or when the recording industry rips off their artists?)
Stealing something is not quite the same thing as business practices. Customers can choose not to pay for overpriced goods. Artists can choose who to sign with, or can choose to not sign at all.
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Old 05-22-2011, 05:48 PM   #73
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Stealing something is not quite the same thing as business practices.
And copyright infringement is not quite the same thing as stealing.
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Old 05-22-2011, 08:01 PM   #74
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Stealing something is not quite the same thing as business practices.
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And copyright infringement is not quite the same thing as stealing.
And coca cola is not quite the same thing as pepsi.
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Old 05-22-2011, 08:16 PM   #75
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I would imagine that the majority of those "grannies" started off downloading ebooks "illegally" to get the ebook versions of the books they already own.
You know, I am a "granny" and I don't see the point in doing that (unless I want it searchable, I guess, but mostly I don't).
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