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Old 04-02-2011, 03:32 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
Time moved on and consumers embraced the rental model. At least part of the reason CC disappeared is precisely because they supported DVD sale model for movies and couldn't make the transition to a workable movie rental model.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:56 PM   #62
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And you're no less of a "cloud" digerati? <shrug> If you think containing content on the cloud will stop piracy, you're badly mistaken. Hackers will just write "vampire" programs
well, nothing is going to completely stop piracy, mate. Holding content on cloud will just make it more difficult -and more important, make casual sharing much more difficult. See

http://www.idealog.com/blog/what-the...-of-the-cloud#

For a detailed discussion of the issue.

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All you're doing is supporting a model guaranteed to annoy the current "heavy user" customers. The denizens of Mobile Read are the heavy using customers. And they don't seem to be pleased with your goals...
Hard to understand why they would be upset. Are they upset by Netflix? Rhapsody? Because the basic concept is the same. I kind of think that people are so invested in fighting The Good Fight Against the DRM Devil that they just are repulsed by a model that marginalizes the issue altogether. Plus there is the control thing-which is digerati inside baseball stuff to the average consumer.
As for libraries being cheaper, yup-but less range and convenience. I love libraries, don't get me wrong- but for ebooks, they are WAAY behind Amazon.
Amazon, of course, is mostly a cloud based service. That's why it makes total sense for them to offer a cloud subscription model. They've got every peice in place but the offline reading.

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You're not getting a warm welcome for your ideas, because many of us see the holes. We don't want to be dependent on a profit maximizing corporation for our history and entertainment. (That's different from paying for it. We just don't believe in renting.
That's good to know. Based on the success of Netflix and Rhapsody, lots of people prefer renting. I think the resistance here is precisely because you and others understand that the average consumer may prefer the subscriptiion model. Doesnt mean, btw, that the purchase option will not still exist. It just won't be where the main action will be.
If the cloud subscription model is made cheaper and more convenient than the buy-download model, that's where consumers will go

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Old 04-02-2011, 04:03 PM   #63
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Proof, please. You seem to be given to making these sweeping statements about what "most" do--do you have the data to back it up?
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However, people have not stopped watching movies. Rather than buying movies, many people are renting them. 13 In the first half of 2009, consumer spending on rentals grew over eight percent. 14 While the Hollywood studios are suffering, Netflix and Redbox are seeing their profits flourish, growing twenty percent and 110 percent respectively in the second quarter of 2009. 15 While the rental industry's revenue is growing substantially, the companies that actually make the product are seeing their revenues plummet.
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Old 04-02-2011, 05:53 PM   #64
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However, people have not stopped watching movies. Rather than buying movies, many people are renting them. 13 In the first half of 2009, consumer spending on rentals grew over eight percent. 14 While the Hollywood studios are suffering, Netflix and Redbox are seeing their profits flourish, growing twenty percent and 110 percent respectively in the second quarter of 2009. 15 While the rental industry's revenue is growing substantially, the companies that actually make the product are seeing their revenues plummet.
The quote says MANY people are renting movies--you keep claiming that MOST people are now renting/streaming. Please back up your claim.
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:27 PM   #65
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Old 04-02-2011, 07:50 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
To me, what's extraordinary is the vehement, "all or nothing": character of the MR true believer's insistence that the publishers should ONLY offer a DRM free "download and sale" model. Anything else is just verboten- a nefarious scheme of the publishers to infringe on our "property" rights.

It might be helpful to take a look at the movie market- not the least because the price points are closest to the book market . There we see, peacefully coexisting, several models of consumption, all of which include DRM
There is:
1. The sale of physical DVDS of movies-going for between$5-20.
2. The RENTAL of movie DVDS
3. The sale of digital copies of movies -think Amazon and ITunes
4.The rental of individual digital copies of movies
5. Cloud subscription services in which movies are streamed to various devices


The last model is becoming the most popular.
Now I don't see anyone going round screaming that Netflix is somehow a dastardly plot by movie studios to deprive people of their right to DRM free copies of movies, but the same accusation was made earlier in the ebook context.
" If the publishers and booksellers offer a [ Netflix type] service for books, I'll resort to piracy!"
"Only a moron would use a cloud subscription service which didn't provide for local copies of an ebook!".

Kind of weird, I think.

In the ebook business I can see room for a :

1. A download and sale service
2.A service offering individual ebooks for rent
3.A cloud subscription service offering reading access to x number of books per month


DRM would be optional for the first. Most publishers and authors will continue to insist on it, Im afraid, and you can vote with your dollars and avoid buying their products.
DRM would be necessary for the second. Again, you can opt not to rent, because of that evil DRM.
DRM would be unnecessary for the third. This is the option that publishers will most want to get behind, (for security reasons)and may likely be the version that proves most popular to the average consumer ( who remains blissfully unaware of all this stuff).

I think publishers will want to make the subscription option especially attractive. The dream would be $15 per month all you eat for the entire catalogue, but it's likely not going to be THAT good. I think Netflix type tiered subscription plans may be more likely, from a one book a month plan for the light reader up to the deluxe all you can eat plan, with maybe options to download one or more books per month. Anyway, I say, bring it on.
For those with strong control issues, you can always buy an actual pbook. That's ULTIMATE control.
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Glad you agree with me. Maybe you'll think a bit more deeply and realize that most consumers don't give a d#### about your precious ideal.
What consumers care about are price, convenience, simplicity, and user experience.
Think a little bit more and you'll understand that lot of why ebooks are convenient is precisely because of the cloud. Whispernet syncing-hello?
Just about the only part of the ebook experience that is not cloud based is the reading of the file on your local drive-a file that is delivered and updated from the cloud.
The offline reading piece is just the last piece to be filled in to make ebooks a complete cloud based experience. HTML 5.0makes that last peice possible.
.
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Hard to understand why they would be upset. Are they upset by Netflix? Rhapsody? Because the basic concept is the same. I kind of think that people are so invested in fighting The Good Fight Against the DRM Devil that they just are repulsed by a model that marginalizes the issue altogether. Plus there is the control thing-which is digerati inside baseball stuff to the average consumer.


That's good to know. Based on the success of Netflix and Rhapsody, lots of people prefer renting. I think the resistance here is precisely because you and others understand that the average consumer may prefer the subscriptiion model. Doesnt mean, btw, that the purchase option will not still exist. It just won't be where the main action will be.
Dancing and dodging around the fact that nobody's taking issue with the cloud idea as another option.

They're objecting to the things you say in the next breaths (made clear in other posts) about this model replacing the ability to download the file. At best, you say that we'd be charged a premium equal to a hardback to do so.

Netflix and Rhapsody didn't threaten our ability to go buy the movie at the same prices as before.

And using whispernet to defend the HTML5 use of the cloud is also disingenuous.

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Old 04-02-2011, 08:12 PM   #67
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-snip rest of a great post-

Ignore them if you wish, but they are the library builders/heavy purchasers for the e-book product. Offend them at your own economic peril....
Exactly.

The ill-thought rudeness baffles me. Not only are ebook readers a massive segment of the market, but we terrible "digirati" are also the ones who have the ability to put your (speaking to the publishers - not you, Ralph, Sir. ) books out there - either to give free advertising as we recommend them to others, or to upload and share them.

In other words, your customers are people who only have to pay a dime if they choose to, out of their own desire to do right by you.

Yet the actions and messages of the publishers and their shills shows no reciprocation of that honor. Nothing but insults to customers' intelligence, characters, and the security of our investments.

Even if y'all can't manage to give us those things out of internal integrity, it's in your best interest to at least fake it. Remember: even if you only published in paper, the books still can be and are digitized and pirated.

Put bluntly, y'all are in no position to be so insulting. It would be wiser to befriend people who are holding your babies.

(And no - I wouldn't put a file on the darknet myself. It only takes one person, though.)

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Old 04-02-2011, 08:33 PM   #68
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Yet the actions and messages of the publishers and their shills shows no reciprocation of that honor. Nothing but insults to customers' intelligence, characters, and the security of our investments.
Don't forget accusing people who care about controlling their media purchases of being an ivory-tower elite that don't understand or care about "real Americans."
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:55 PM   #69
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Don't forget accusing people who care about controlling their media purchases of being an ivory-tower elite that don't understand or care about "real Americans."
Ironic isn't it, since we aren't the ones scoffing at the concern over those clueless souls who'll buy without realizing they could to lose access to their purchases.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:00 PM   #70
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I'd appreciate you citing some examples.
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That's because none of us are very trusting of ceding control. Remember the Kindle is Amazon's second pass at e-books. Years before they sold DRM PDF e-books, decided they were too much bother, and shut down the business, leaving the existing customers high and dry. There is a lot of defunct small publishers, leaving DRM'ed books in their wake that can no longer be transferred to a new reading device. The first e-book readers came out in the late 1990's...
Also: MSN Music, the MLB, Google Video... there are plenty of examples.

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In a cloud based, subscription service model, of course, you don't purchase individual books,merely the right to read say x number of books per month.
It better be a very high number of books per month if I don't get to keep the books. I'm thinking unlimited usage. Or, since I don't read as much as I used to due to a small child, perhaps a max of $8/month for up to 15 books per month, something like that. Something in line with Netflix's model. Unlimited for $15/month.

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Its not really that different , come to think of it, from what you do when you "buy" an ebook- there you buy a right to read the ebook for an unlimited time.
If Amazon went out of business tomorrow , you would be in the same position anyway.
Yes! You're finally getting it! This is why DRM sucks!

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Again, if people don't like the model, then it won't work. These days, however, people stream music without buying it, without feeling that they are morons who don't know what's good for them. Guess its easy to look down your long nose at those "soiled masses" who prefer a different model to those in the know.
I stream music without buying it. I pay $13/month for unlimited usage of new and old songs in my car (long drive to work), at home, on my computer, and on my iTouch. I don't care that I'm 'renting' it for the same reason I don't care that I rent my tv package: I don't care to own it. It's throw-away to me. Books, on the other hand, I like to read repeatedly. But for $13/month, I don't ever have to buy another mp3 album. Ever. I don't have that same relationship with books.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:08 PM   #71
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I watch a movie one time, with my entire family (something I can't do with ebooks unless we all have the same devices and they're all linked to the same account) for $1.07 ($1 + sales tax). Yeah, that's a throw-away amount for a throw-away item to entertain me for a short amount of time. And it's a hell of a lot cheaper than paying $60 to take the family to the cinema where I have to put up with people talking on cell phones, I can't pause/rewind, and snacks cost an additional $30. In short: renting movies saves me money, and I have no desire to own 99% of the movies I watch. I end up purchasing about 1-2 dvds per year.
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:18 PM   #72
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And when the company owning the cloud goes under, or decides they're not interested in providing content any more? No thanks.
Not even that. We know access on the net is not 100%. If I want to go read a book and I cannot access it, I would not be happy. Also, I don't always have net access when I read. So I would need a local copy. I don't mind the cloud where the eBooks live until I download them and have a local copy. If I pay for the content, I want the ability to have it on my computer.
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:37 PM   #73
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This already exists... it's called Google eBooks.



http://books.google.com/help/ebooks/overview.html

BOb

FAIL!
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:49 PM   #74
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Google doesn't quite have the whole model yet. They still have to tweak the HTML 5.0 code so as to allow offline reading of an ebook without a continuous connection. They were already almost there with Google Gears, so they are clearly working on it.They ( or someone) will probably have the problem licked soon.
Once they do, I expect they will roll out a cloud subscription model pretty soon. (They may be planning to do it concurrently with their music subscription service, which most people expect later this year).
I think Amazon and Apple are likely to do something in this space too. I'm pretty sure that at least some publishers would be 100 percent behind them.
The issue is not whether the folks on MR will like this model . ( Apparently the MR gods have decreed that there is only one model that the publishers can offer -offer a downloadable, DRM free copy of an ebook without any effective precautions to prevent theft,or "unauthorized copying", as MRers euphemistically call it)
What I see is publishers offering several different models. They might push the cloud subscription model hardest, since it affords authors and publishers the most protection, which is apparently anathema to the anti DRM true believers. The average customer will decide which model they like- much to the apprehension of the true believers, since they may prefer the "wrong" model.
If the cloud subscription model offers a smoother, better experience than the "download and possess" model, that's what will prevail. Netflix did this in movies and Rhapsody, etc has done it in music. It is entirely possible that SOMEONE can do this in ebooks.
I'll be going on vacation soon for 5 days. Most of that time I will not have net access. How can I access cloud based eBook to read while on vacation? I can't. That's how. So what will happen is I will have nothing to read as my eBooks sit on some server I cannot access. Also, if I was to be reading cloud stored eBooks on my iPhone, I'd be decreasing the battery as I would have to keep 3G or wifi on while reading. Overall, I see cloud based eBooks as a big failure. I do go places that I won't have net access. So cloud access won't always work for me. Cloud access also means I do not have the eBook locally so I am stuck with however the publishers want to format the eBooks. So if they do a poor job, I am stuck with it like that or I don't read it. I do not want to read an eBook that has paragraph spaces. It takes me out of the book and ruins the reading experience. I don't care what some companies have done. I care what works for me and what works for me is not something that gives me spotty access and maybe poorly formatted reading material.

As far as using the cloud to store eBooks, I would expect eventually someone to come up with a program that would "read" the eBooks off the cloud and save it locally so we have the eBooks in a file. There goes the clouds supposed protection. The more a publisher wants to lock content that I have paid for, the more I want to let it go free to anyone who wants it. The more a publisher removes the locks, the more I don't want to let the content go free. And yes, the locks do cause more piracy then you think. People don't want the locks so they go on the net and find the eBooks without the locks. Then because they find it easy to do, they get more eBooks that way. If the locks were not there in the first place, you don't get as many people going to find the eBooks without the locks and thus, they don't stay for more. I blame any increase in piracy on the publishers.

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Old 04-02-2011, 10:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
Not even that. We know access on the net is not 100%. If I want to go read a book and I cannot access it, I would not be happy. Also, I don't always have net access when I read. So I would need a local copy. I don't mind the cloud where the eBooks live until I download them and have a local copy. If I pay for the content, I want the ability to have it on my computer.
Exactly -- you finish a movie in 2 hours, but it takes days to finish a book. And unless you are on an unlimited plan (perhaps this whole idea is subsidized by Verizon and AT&T??) you won't always have access. And only devices with internet access would work.

Avid readers are quite a different crowd from Netflix users. So I doubt a similar strategy would work here, perhaps it would for the next Dan Brown. But in general readers are a completely different market.

So all things considered a scheme like this would appear to be an attempt to promote sales of new hardware (internet capable reading devices), unlimited data plans, and pbooks -- especially when it is the only option.
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