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Old 04-02-2011, 12:29 AM   #46
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How could it work since you can't get access to the key? There is no key on your device when the file is in the browser.
Well, this is why some publishers are pushing this option. There is no simple way to pirate, or engage in large scale casual sharing of books held in the cloud
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:49 AM   #47
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This category of cloud computing is based on service. The problem with your idea is the service description would be rights protection for the publishers as a service.

From a consumer perspective I can use cloud storage as a service today and use the existing buy and download model to give me the same benefit. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I'm sure there will be ebook library management as a service offerings but for me to sign up they would have to be open and independent from any corporate interests, other then collecting money for the service.
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:04 AM   #48
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Google doesn't quite have the whole model yet. They still have to tweak the HTML 5.0 code so as to allow offline reading of an ebook without a continuous connection. They were already almost there with Google Gears, so they are clearly working on it.They ( or someone) will probably have the problem licked soon.
Once they do, I expect they will roll out a cloud subscription model pretty soon. (They may be planning to do it concurrently with their music subscription service, which most people expect later this year).
I think Amazon and Apple are likely to do something in this space too. I'm pretty sure that at least some publishers would be 100 percent behind them.
The issue is not whether the folks on MR will like this model . ( Apparently the MR gods have decreed that there is only one model that the publishers can offer -offer a downloadable, DRM free copy of an ebook without any effective precautions to prevent theft,or "unauthorized copying", as MRers euphemistically call it)
What I see is publishers offering several different models. They might push the cloud subscription model hardest, since it affords authors and publishers the most protection, which is apparently anathema to the anti DRM true believers. The average customer will decide which model they like- much to the apprehension of the true believers, since they may prefer the "wrong" model.
If the cloud subscription model offers a smoother, better experience than the "download and possess" model, that's what will prevail. Netflix did this in movies and Rhapsody, etc has done it in music. It is entirely possible that SOMEONE can do this in ebooks.
Stonetools, it's all about control (or the illusion of control). Many people at MR want to have something for the money they spend. Something that they can control. They accept the responsibility for backing up, it's their money at stake. The producers want exactly the same thing, control over all the copies of all the content, everywhere in existence.

The producers say it's because there is piracy (and there is) but the real reason is they want to control access to product, in order to create scarcity, which gives more economic value to their product. I'll use the DVD market for an example. It's fallen off a cliff. Piracy! Piracy! Is the cry. We have to stop piracy. Despite everything, I doubt it's piracy causing the drop of sales. What's causing the drop in sales are people who were building libraries, which couldn't exist before Home Video, becoming built out. If you have bought, say 2000 DVDs, (since the inception of DVD's in 1998), your entire list of movies you want to own may be filled. So you drop from being a steady $200 a month customer to a $200 a year customer (or a $20 a year customer). There goes the sales...And it's not due to piracy. The person who spent all that money over the years only did so because they would have something to use later in life. They wouldn't have spent it as rentals. (why do you think RedBox is so popular - a buck a shot instead of $20, but only for a while, and then NOTHING! - that movie is out of availability.)

And that is what the MR religion fanatics know in their bones. Sooner or later the availability will disappear, because it is competition for new product. With books, even with bad paper, the availability is over 50 years. E-books should be eternal. But they all compete for the publisher's dollar, and they don't like that. They want to make it go away.

I have no problem with rental as an option, but I suspect it will become the only model, because of the control it offers to products. No other reason. You can pirate the rental model just as easily as the download model, the tools are different, but just as hackable.

No, it's all about control...And more MR religious fanatics won't serve the producer control model. And that's the blunt fact. Ignore them if you wish, but they are the library builders/heavy purchasers for the e-book product. Offend them at your own economic peril....
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:14 AM   #49
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PLease read the OP, all the way to the end. tia
Will the "cloud" allow me multiple books at one time in this new html format so that I have "reserve" reading material at MY convenience? Obviously, all of this is speculative and trial and error may smooth out the bumps. But this former computer programmer prefers owning and storing my own data. I don't recall but one photo storage site either went out of business or changed models and took most peoples' photos to the afterlife.
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:41 AM   #50
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Stonetools, it's all about control (or the illusion of control). Many people at MR want to have something for the money they spend. Something that they can control. They accept the responsibility for backing up, it's their money at stake. The producers want exactly the same thing, control over all the copies of all the content, everywhere in existence.
Well, sure its about control and property rights but the MRers seem to have a view of property rights which is contrary to reality. When you buy an ebook, you buy a software license. You may not think you are doing that, but that's what you are ACTUALLY doing. If you doubt it read the Kindle licensing agreement. That means that DRM is not the unconscionable invasion of "first sale " property rights that the MR true believers think it is.
To me, what's extraordinary is the vehement, "all or nothing": character of the MR true believer's insistence that the publishers should ONLY offer a DRM free "download and sale" model. Anything else is just verboten- a nefarious scheme of the publishers to infringe on our "property" rights.
It might be helpful to take a look at the movie market- not the least because the price points are closest to the book market . There we see, peacefully coexisting, several models of consumption, all of which include DRM
There is:
1. The sale of physical DVDS of movies-going for between$5-20.
2. The RENTAL of movie DVDS
3. The sale of digital copies of movies -think Amazon and ITunes
4.The rental of individual digital copies of movies
5. Cloud subscription services in which movies are streamed to various devices


The last model is becoming the most popular.
Now I don't see anyone going round screaming that Netflix is somehow a dastardly plot by movie studios to deprive people of their right to DRM free copies of movies, but the same accusation was made earlier in the ebook context.
" If the publishers and booksellers offer a [ Netflix type] service for books, I'll resort to piracy!"
"Only a moron would use a cloud subscription service which didn't provide for local copies of an ebook!".

Kind of weird, I think.

In the ebook business I can see room for a :

1. A download and sale service
2.A service offering individual ebooks for rent
3.A cloud subscription service offering reading access to x number of books per month


DRM would be optional for the first. Most publishers and authors will continue to insist on it, Im afraid, and you can vote with your dollars and avoid buying their products.
DRM would be necessary for the second. Again, you can opt not to rent, because of that evil DRM.
DRM would be unnecessary for the third. This is the option that publishers will most want to get behind, (for security reasons)and may likely be the version that proves most popular to the average consumer ( who remains blissfully unaware of all this stuff).

I think publishers will want to make the subscription option especially attractive. The dream would be $15 per month all you eat for the entire catalogue, but it's likely not going to be THAT good. I think Netflix type tiered subscription plans may be more likely, from a one book a month plan for the light reader up to the deluxe all you can eat plan, with maybe options to download one or more books per month. Anyway, I say, bring it on.
For those with strong control issues, you can always buy an actual pbook. That's ULTIMATE control.

Last edited by stonetools; 04-02-2011 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 04-02-2011, 12:01 PM   #51
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15 dollars a month is a bit much. Unless this Amazing fee offers things such as music and movies as well, if so then all bets are off.

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Old 04-02-2011, 01:03 PM   #52
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Well, sure its about control and property rights but the MRers seem to have a view of property rights which is contrary to reality. When you buy an ebook, you buy a software license. You may not think you are doing that, but that's what you are ACTUALLY doing. If you doubt it read the Kindle licensing agreement. That means that DRM is not the unconscionable invasion of "first sale " property rights that the MR true believers think it is.
To me, what's extraordinary is the vehement, "all or nothing": character of the MR true believer's insistence that the publishers should ONLY offer a DRM free "download and sale" model. Anything else is just verboten- a nefarious scheme of the publishers to infringe on our "property" rights.
It might be helpful to take a look at the movie market- not the least because the price points are closest to the book market . There we see, peacefully coexisting, several models of consumption, all of which include DRM
There is:
1. The sale of physical DVDS of movies-going for between$5-20.
2. The RENTAL of movie DVDS
3. The sale of digital copies of movies -think Amazon and ITunes
4.The rental of individual digital copies of movies
5. Cloud subscription services in which movies are streamed to various devices


The last model is becoming the most popular.
Now I don't see anyone going round screaming that Netflix is somehow a dastardly plot by movie studios to deprive people of their right to DRM free copies of movies, but the same accusation was made earlier in the ebook context.
" If the publishers and booksellers offer a [ Netflix type] service for books, I'll resort to piracy!"
"Only a moron would use a cloud subscription service which didn't provide for local copies of an ebook!".

Kind of weird, I think.

In the ebook business I can see room for a :

1. A download and sale service
2.A service offering individual ebooks for rent
3.A cloud subscription service offering reading access to x number of books per month


DRM would be optional for the first. Most publishers and authors will continue to insist on it, Im afraid, and you can vote with your dollars and avoid buying their products.
DRM would be necessary for the second. Again, you can opt not to rent, because of that evil DRM.
DRM would be unnecessary for the third. This is the option that publishers will most want to get behind, (for security reasons)and may likely be the version that proves most popular to the average consumer ( who remains blissfully unaware of all this stuff).

I think publishers will want to make the subscription option especially attractive. The dream would be $15 per month all you eat for the entire catalogue, but it's likely not going to be THAT good. I think Netflix type tiered subscription plans may be more likely, from a one book a month plan for the light reader up to the deluxe all you can eat plan, with maybe options to download one or more books per month. Anyway, I say, bring it on.
For those with strong control issues, you can always buy an actual pbook. That's ULTIMATE control.
That's because none of us are very trusting of ceding control. Remember the Kindle is Amazon's second pass at e-books. Years before they sold DRM PDF e-books, decided they were too much bother, and shut down the business, leaving the existing customers high and dry. There is a lot of defunct small publishers, leaving DRM'ed books in their wake that can no longer be transferred to a new reading device. The first e-book readers came out in the late 1990's...

Look at Personal Media Players (PMPs). Find me a current production model PMP with a user replaceable battery and a external flash memory reader. Just one. No market? There are a lot of people fed up with spending $100, $200, ($600) for a player they will have to throw away in a couple of years just because of a dead battery. But no manufacturer wants to address this market, because then people won't have to buy a new one every 2-3 years. Why do I digress? because I can see the e-book market going that way, with only the rental market being allowed. Even though there is a clear purchase market. Why? control...
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:46 PM   #53
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Anyone who trusts their files only to "the cloud" without local copies and backups is an utter moron.
Agreed!

The Cloud (which has actually been around for a long-ass time if you remove the buzz word) can work, but it really feels like a supplemental element to me and not the main show.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:07 PM   #54
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The producers want exactly the same thing, control over all the copies of all the content, everywhere in existence.
Exactly. It isn't about making the cloud model one option out of many-- it is the fact that the publishers would like to have one in which they have total control as the only option. Offer both "cloud" and download now, but a couple of years down the road, a press release "now, to better serve you and provide a superior service, we are switching to a cloud only model..."

You mention DVD-- I was an early adopter of DVD and vividly remember the fight against the scumbags from Circuit City and their DIVX scheme.

http://www.salon.com/21st/feature/19...29feature.html

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/1999/06/20259

http://www.google.com/search?num=100...aqi=&aql=f&oq=

Circuit City didn't want to simply supplement DVDs, they wanted to replace DVD ownership with their rental model-- and pi**ed off the very early adopter audience that were actually buying electronics. Heavy electronic buyers stopped buying from Circuit City. I only hope that any publishers that push for a "cloud only" distribution model share the same fate as Circuit City.

Traditional publishing? Burn, baby burn.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:03 PM   #55
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Remember the Kindle is Amazon's second pass at e-books. Years before they sold DRM PDF e-books, decided they were too much bother, and shut down the business, leaving the existing customers high and dry. There is a lot of defunct small publishers, leaving DRM'ed books in their wake that can no longer be transferred to a new reading device.
Yup, this is a constantly repeated story here on this forum. The ONE person I know who actually got caught up in the Amazon switch from PDF did n't bother to contact Amazon but simply stripped Amazon's now defunct DRM scheme. Of course, stripping DRM in an emergency situation is both morally and legally proper. For further discussion on DRM, please read The Other Thread.

As to PSPs, another way to look at it is that SOME techie guys wanted a replaceable battery option for PSPs. MOST folks didn't want to screw around with a replaceable battery , so the manufacturers catered to the majority. IOW, the majority made the "wrong decision" according to techies. What's the most popular ereader today? You guessed it-the one with non replaceable battery and the most closed format-the Amazon Kindle.
If the booksellers make the cloud subscription model the simplest, most convenient and most cost effective model, the consumers will probably make the "wrong" decision again.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:17 PM   #56
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Circuit City didn't want to simply supplement DVDs, they wanted to replace DVD ownership with their rental model-- and pi**ed off the very early adopter audience that were actually buying electronics. Heavy electronic buyers stopped buying from Circuit City. I only hope that any publishers that push for a "cloud only" distribution model share the same fate as Circuit City.
Fast forward today and look at the movie market? Most people don't buy movies anymore. They rent/stream them. The consumers made the "wrong" decision again.

I think the pattern here is clear. The MobileRead anti DRM types-digerati one and all- have issues with DRM because it doesn't fit their ideal of how ebooks should be sold- an ideal which puts maximum control in the hands of techie end users. They fear the publishers introduction of a cloud subscription model because they are afraid that it may offer advantages to the consumer in terms of price or convenience in return for giving up that all important control, and they are afraid that the consumers may "fall" for that model!
Well, I guess we can't have THAT.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:27 PM   #57
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I think the pattern here is clear. The MobileRead anti DRM types-digerati one and all- have issues with DRM because it doesn't fit their ideal of how ebooks should be sold- an ideal which puts maximum control in the hands of techie end users.
No s*it, Sherlock.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:53 PM   #58
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Fast forward today and look at the movie market? Most people don't buy movies anymore. They rent/stream them. The consumers made the "wrong" decision again.

I think the pattern here is clear. The MobileRead anti DRM types-digerati one and all- have issues with DRM because it doesn't fit their ideal of how ebooks should be sold- an ideal which puts maximum control in the hands of techie end users. They fear the publishers introduction of a cloud subscription model because they are afraid that it may offer advantages to the consumer in terms of price or convenience in return for giving up that all important control, and they are afraid that the consumers may "fall" for that model!
Well, I guess we can't have THAT.
And you're no less of a "cloud" digerati? <shrug> If you think containing content on the cloud will stop piracy, you're badly mistaken. Hackers will just write "vampire" programs. All you're doing is supporting a model guaranteed to annoy the current "heavy user" customers. The denizens of Mobile Read are the heavy using customers. And they don't seem to be pleased with your goals...

As far as price goes, libraries are cheaper than any e-book subscription model. As far as convenience is concerned, is punching one button too much work? (Amazon)

You're not getting a warm welcome for your ideas, because many of us see the holes. We don't want to be dependent on a profit maximizing corporation for our history and entertainment. (That's different from paying for it. We just don't believe in renting. - In my case that goes for anything, except for large capital investment/one time use items, like a hotel room.) BUt the corporate world wants everybody to renters, if they can just figure out how to make us. It's called planned obsolescence, in another age.
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Old 04-02-2011, 04:17 PM   #59
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Fast forward today and look at the movie market? Most people don't buy movies anymore. They rent/stream them. The consumers made the "wrong" decision again.
Proof, please. You seem to be given to making these sweeping statements about what "most" do--do you have the data to back it up?
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Old 04-02-2011, 04:27 PM   #60
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No s*it, Sherlock.

Glad you agree with me. Maybe you'll think a bit more deeply and realize that most consumers don't give a d#### about your precious ideal.
What consumers care about are price, convenience, simplicity, and user experience.
Think a little bit more and you'll understand that lot of why ebooks are convenient is precisely because of the cloud. Whispernet syncing-hello?
Just about the only part of the ebook experience that is not cloud based is the reading of the file on your local drive-a file that is delivered and updated from the cloud.
The offline reading piece is just the last piece to be filled in to make ebooks a complete cloud based experience. HTML 5.0makes that last peice possible.
Revind to your "fight" against CC. What that was about was that you wanted DVD sale model for movies, rather than a rental model. Time moved on and consumers embraced the rental model. At least part of the reason CC disappeared is precisely because they supported DVD sale model for movies and couldn't make the transition to a workable movie rental model.Victory for you, I guess .
In any case I think that a cloud subscription model WILL Be offered and publishers abnd booksellers WILL push it. If the public embraces it, well this whole DRM fight will be a sideshow.
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