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Old 01-10-2011, 04:57 PM   #31
FlorenceArt
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Well, the religious message in the Golden Compass wasn't all that subtle...
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:16 PM   #32
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I liked Enders Game.

I remember reading one other book by Orson Scott Card. I'm not sure of the title or series, (Alvin Maker perhaps), but the main character crosses a stream and his genetic make up is changed in the process. It sounded like an allegory for baptism. There were several other similar passages in the book that had religious symbolism.

I was turned off enough that I haven't read anything by Orson Scott Card since.
Do you also read the future in the entrails of a recently killed animal? Maybe you should have read the words backwards and see if they had some hidden meaning. I often think that people try too hard. OSC writes fantasy and science-fiction, not some Literature that has been carefully constructed so that it drips with hidden meaning and allegory, and they are rarely so obvious as a baptism in the river. I've seen commentators read all sorts of things into Lord of the Rings, I feel like shaking them "It's fiction people!", stop trying to be so clever.
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:37 PM   #33
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So I miss most of what is in Card's novels.
To your credit you don't miss anything, it simply doesn't exist. He is a fantasy and science-fiction writer not some propagandist.

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OSC writes fantasy and science-fiction, not some Literature that has been carefully constructed so that it drips with hidden meaning and allegory, and they are rarely so obvious as a baptism in the river.
~
I feel like shaking them "It's fiction people!", stop trying to be so clever.
I wholeheartedly agree, maybe in addition to the Poke feature, they should add a "shake" feature to Facebook.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:38 AM   #34
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Speaking of OSC, he's had a stroke:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/book-talk/5...ad-stroke.html
...

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Old 01-12-2011, 06:17 AM   #35
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Yes - I just noticed that he had a stroke. I hope this isn't too much of a set back for him.

This is slightly off-topic but mention of OSC's stance on homosexuality made me want to look into it a bit more. I was curious what he had to say.

I found an article called: The Hypocrites of Homosexuality

It seemed like an interesting article and it made me wonder whether OSC allows people to correspond with him about articles like this. It seemed like it could be the input of a fascinating discussion and debate.

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Old 01-12-2011, 06:27 AM   #36
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As I read this I am listening to an Audio version of my favourite book. This is of course Endersgame. I love a lot of OSC's work, although I find some of his work like speaker for the dead and the worthing saga, more fantasy than Sci-Fi.

He is a brilliant author, and I always look forward to his next book. (just finished reading Ender in Exile)

Thanks for the link, it is very interesting
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:04 AM   #37
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... I found an article called: The Hypocrites of Homosexuality
That is where the quote offered in post #24 came from - a post that reminded me it was well past time I should re-read Songmaster. I finished it a couple of days ago. The story was not about sexuality, but homosexuality (well bisexuality) came into it and it was, in my opinion, handled very very well, and very believably. The book made no particular statement about sexuality (although I can imagine people trying to claim certain things about what eventually happened to Josef, but this was a result of his personality - and that of Riktors - rather than a result of his bisexuality). The incident was simply part of the story, developing the situation so that the ending fit together very well. I think it was an excellent book, I find it amazing that he did so well on just his second novel.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:14 AM   #38
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Do you also read the future in the entrails of a recently killed animal? Maybe you should have read the words backwards and see if they had some hidden meaning. I often think that people try too hard. OSC writes fantasy and science-fiction, not some Literature that has been carefully constructed so that it drips with hidden meaning and allegory, and they are rarely so obvious as a baptism in the river. I've seen commentators read all sorts of things into Lord of the Rings, I feel like shaking them "It's fiction people!", stop trying to be so clever.
While I might agree about Ender's Game, I think it is pretty clear that J.R.R. Tolkien deliberately layered Christian/Catholic themes into The Lord of the Rings. He was being more subtle than his friend C.S. Lewis was, but not so subtle that a bunch of them can't be found without looking very hard.

That being said, even when it is unintentional, I think a writer will often include themes in their fiction that reflect their world view. Now some of them, like those that show up in Ender's Game are held by many more people than just Mormons, but it doesn't mean they aren't there.

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Old 01-12-2011, 10:24 AM   #39
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To your credit you don't miss anything, it simply doesn't exist. He is a fantasy and science-fiction writer not some propagandist.



I wholeheartedly agree, maybe in addition to the Poke feature, they should add a "shake" feature to Facebook.
Actually, he is a propagandist. He writes a lot of political columns in magazines, but they seldom really show up in his books. I'm not too broken up by his anti-homosexuality, but when you know what to look for, you see his mormon themes appearing a lot more.

(disclosure, I am gay, still like OSC's work. His Magic Street, a retelling of A Midsummer Night's Dream, is spectacular.)
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:26 AM   #40
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And since I had to activly go looking for them in the Narnia books you can all assume that I totally missed them in LoTR. (grins)

I drove my English teachers nuts. I hated Wuthering Heights, which of course was the book that we spent an entire semester on because it was going to appear on the AP exam that year. My first essay argued that it did not deserve to be labeled a classic because it was a painful read and who cares about the great literary devices when it feels like you are in the middle of surgery finishing the book.

I failed the essay, Wuthering Heights was my teachers favorite book, but ended up getting an A in the class.

Reading is enjoyable when the story flows and you end up caring about the characters. I can look at many classics and pick out the metaphors and symbolism and all the wonderful literal devices but many of them seem more focused on those things then writing a good story.

I love Hemingway and Fitzgerald and Dos Passos because they told a great story first. What they did with the language and how they advanced literature is secondary. The Bronte's have always been hard reads for me because the characters are so freaking depressing and the focus seems to be more on style then substance.

So I like Card's work because he tells a great story. If he is finding a way to work in Mormon themes, and I am sure they are there, it is subtle enough that I am missing them. I know enough about the Mormon Church and its practices to be able to catch things when they are obvious and I just have not seen it in his books.

The characters are very well developed. The story and plot lines are excellent. I enjoy them. Well, some more then others. I normally find that I love the first book in a series, enjoy the second book, sigh during the third books, and pretty much am done with thing by the fourth book. The only exception to this pattern has been the Shadow series from Ender's games. While the books are redundant, Bean and Ender's Jesh being threatened by Achilles or someone else, Battle School kids taking over governments and militaries, Bean and his Battle School posse win, Peter is a benevolent dictator whose motives bother Bean but turns out not to be a monster, you can see the characters grow and develop as people. It is fun watching the Battle School kids grow and how the adults from the Battle School are able to manipulate the little geniuses even with them knowing that they are being manipulated.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:44 AM   #41
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I am perhaps getting a little off the topic intended but ... I agree that Ender's Game ended well. Speaker for the Dead is ostensibly a sequel but, aside from re-using two characters (Ender and his sister) and borrowing Ender's Game as their now far distant background, it is really a completely new story and completely different in it's feel to Ender's Game. I think this book is truly excellent science-fiction, every bit as good as Ender's Game but very different.
He has stated that the book he actually wanted to write, was Speaker For The Dead, and that he only used Enders Game for building up the character that he needed to use..

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(But I would recommend stopping there, Xenocide and subsequent novels I found disappointing - at least in comparison to these two such remarkable books.)

Actually I guess you could argue that Speaker for the Dead is very much on topic here, since religion definitely shows up as a strong element of the story, but I found it an essential and well managed part of the story.
It is because of you guys that I haven't read any more of the books.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:24 AM   #42
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As I read this I am listening to an Audio version of my favourite book. This is of course Endersgame. I love a lot of OSC's work, although I find some of his work like speaker for the dead and the worthing saga, more fantasy than Sci-Fi.
There's absolutely no way that "Speaker for the Dead" is Fantasy. It's pure SF! What elements of the story do you consider to be Fantasy?
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:06 PM   #43
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And since I had to activly go looking for them in the Narnia books you can all assume that I totally missed them in LoTR. (grins)
If you want I can lay a dozen on you .

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Old 01-12-2011, 12:09 PM   #44
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Actually, he is a propagandist. He writes a lot of political columns in magazines, but they seldom really show up in his books. I'm not too broken up by his anti-homosexuality, but when you know what to look for, you see his mormon themes appearing a lot more.

(disclosure, I am gay, still like OSC's work. His Magic Street, a retelling of A Midsummer Night's Dream, is spectacular.)
Well, to some extent, we all are proagandists in the sense that we tend to argue for the positions we believe in. That being said, he does not overtly push his social and political positions in his fiction so with respect to his fiction, he is not really acting as a propagandist.

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Old 01-12-2011, 12:13 PM   #45
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If you want I can lay a dozen on you .

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No thanks, I am happy with how I read the stories.
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