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Old 01-04-2011, 08:17 AM   #16
DiapDealer
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This is exactly why I make it a point of knowing absolutely nothing personal about my favorite authors. I have such a perfect relationship with them now... why would I take a chance on screwing that up by bringing religion, politics, et al into the equation?

I don't want to be influenced by anything other than the words on the 'page.'
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Old 01-04-2011, 08:40 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by gmw View Post
Come on people, you can't say something like that and leave me hangin'. Which of his novels give you that impression? (I'm sitting here trying to work out whether it's from books I've not read, or whether I am really thick and totally missed this in his books - some of which I've reread only recently.)
Here's one of many statements:

http://www.ornery.org/essays/2004-03-26-1.html

As far as Card being Libertarian at all, this collection of essays has plenty of evidence to the contrary:

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/index.html

With that posted, this is as close to discussing politics as I ever plan to do here.

...I'd rather be making friends.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:55 AM   #18
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I guess I fall into the catagory of people that says if I can't see it in the books I am reading then I am not worried about a persons opinions.

I read the Golden Compass not knowing about the controversy behind the books and went "Wohooo talk about Catholic bashing" and went online to find that my thoughts about the books were shared by many. I have not bought any more books by that author because I did not care for the book based on the message I took from the book.

I stopped reading Tom Clancy when his becomes became a vehicle to lecture about his political beliefs on a regular basis instead of the occassional opinion of his characters. It became too much for me.

I have never noticed any over the top religious or political bent to Card's books. Of course there are lessons and messages there but for the most part he lets me draw out of the books what I want and does not chastise me through his characters.

That is what is important for me. I do understand the desire to boycott a certain author or actor or artist because of their political or social views. There is plenty out there for folks to read, there is no reason to read something that you find unappealing for whatever reason.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:48 AM   #19
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I have never noticed any over the top religious or political bent to Card's books. Of course there are lessons and messages there but for the most part he lets me draw out of the books what I want and does not chastise me through his characters.

That is what is important for me. I do understand the desire to boycott a certain author or actor or artist because of their political or social views. There is plenty out there for folks to read, there is no reason to read something that you find unappealing for whatever reason.
I had never noticed it (overt Mormon prostletyzing either) until I came across claims from other people. I bring this up because I really like OSC's thinking on the topic in the article I linked.

As with his books, I just "resonate" with OSC's thinking.

Lee
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:51 AM   #20
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I'm another one for the viewpoint that an author is free to hold whatever personal views they wish; I don't go in for the idea of "thought crime". I may vehemently disagree with their views, but I absolutely defend their right to hold them.

I'll judge an author solely on the quality of their books.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:53 AM   #21
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I had never noticed it (overt Mormon prostletyzing either) until I came across claims from other people. I bring this up because I really like OSC's thinking on the topic in the article I linked.

As with his books, I just "resonate" with OSC's thinking.

Lee
As has been said, "The Lost Boys" is where the Mormon stuff comes to the fore. I found it very interesting; the Mormon church isn't very big in the UK, and I found it interesting to read about their lifestyle. I'd recommend the book.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:12 PM   #22
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As a kid, I used to read a lot of L. Ron Hubbard's sci-fi (Battlefield Earth and the Mission Earth series). I actually regret that I gave any money to that man. Scientology's rejection of psychiatry, specifically, makes me want to vomit with rage.

I totally understand and support someone who separates a writer's religious beliefs from their writings, but with Hubbard, I can't do that, because he used the writings to fund the cult he formed, and from what I've read, he did so knowingly scamming people. Not only did he take a lot of people's money, but his views on psychiatry cause people not to seek legitimate treatments.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by silasgreenback View Post
Here's one of many statements: ... With that posted, this is as close to discussing politics as I ever plan to do here.

...I'd rather be making friends.
Ah, so it's not from his novels that these ideas of his beliefs and preferences are coming from. That's a bit of a relief, I thought I was missing something obvious. The following is not trying to open a political discussion, its about what comes out in the books.

It's naive to expect that an author's beliefs will not effect their writing in any way (for example it seems unlikely that Orson Scott Card is going to have gay heroes) but I do not think that that necessarily excludes them from being able to produce very good novels (sexual preference, for example, is largely irrelevant to a great many stories). To exclude an author because of something they've said outside their novels seems a bit ... extreme. One of my favourite authors, Richard North Patterson (contemporary fiction), once said flattering things about a certain President - but that hasn't stopped me reading and enjoying his books (of course, his writing has fairly obvious political bents the other way, so I guess that helps).

There is always the argument that the assumptions in the writing may say something insidious of themselves - this is a complaint I've seen of the Twilight books, for example. I think the argument is valid, but I also think it is unavoidable unless the books is going to be completely bland. A book that contains assumptions affirmative of gay rights is making as much of a statement as a book that contains assumptions to the contrary. Note that it can also be a mistake to assume that the assumptions implicit in a story are what the writer believes, some take delight in arguing contrary to their own beliefs, and some like to include certain things for their shock-value - something to make the book stand-out.

I've never seen anything in any of Orson Scott Card's novels to complain about with regard to this topic.
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Old 01-05-2011, 02:58 AM   #24
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Ah, so it's not from his novels that these ideas of his beliefs and preferences are coming from. That's a bit of a relief, I thought I was missing something obvious.
No it is definitely not in the his novels. If you read Songmaster, the way he portrays love between a young male coming of age and a slightly older companion, you would have no way of knowing he might not approve of same sex marriage. Card said the following about the book.
Quote:
What the novel offers is a treatment of characters who share, between them, a forbidden act that took place because of hunger on one side, compassion on the other, and genuine love and friendship on both parts.
That said, this relationship is a small part of the overall book. If you haven't read Songmaster you might want to consider reading it when you have a chance. I hardly ever remember specifics about a book, but I do recall that I enjoyed this book.
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Old 01-05-2011, 03:09 AM   #25
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... That said, this relationship is a small part of the overall book. If you haven't read Songmaster you might want to consider reading it when you have a chance. I hardly ever remember specifics about a book, but I do recall that I enjoyed this book.
I have read it, but a long time ago now. I remember enjoying it but not much more ... but it's still on the shelf, could be time to take it down for a re-read.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:48 AM   #26
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Speaking of OSC, he's had a stroke:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/book-talk/5...ad-stroke.html
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:15 AM   #27
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I'm another one for the viewpoint that an author is free to hold whatever personal views they wish; I don't go in for the idea of "thought crime". I may vehemently disagree with their views, but I absolutely defend their right to hold them.

I'll judge an author solely on the quality of their books.
These are two very different statements.

I tend to agree that an author should be judged, as an author, on his books.

I also agree that authors, as any human beings, are allowed to hold any opinion they want to. So am I, and if I think someone's opinions are stupid and morally wrong, I also have a right to voice that opinion, just as he has a right to voice his.

I've never read any of OSC's books, so I don't have an opinion on that. I agree that he has a right to his own opinions on sex. I also have a right to consider him a prick, if indeed he is "vehemently homophobic". I certainly don't think his books should be banned and I may even read one of them some day, but I still have a right to my opinions about his opinions.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:42 AM   #28
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I liked Enders Game.

I remember reading one other book by Orson Scott Card. I'm not sure of the title or series, (Alvin Maker perhaps), but the main character crosses a stream and his genetic make up is changed in the process. It sounded like an allegory for baptism. There were several other similar passages in the book that had religious symbolism.

I was turned off enough that I haven't read anything by Orson Scott Card since.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:53 PM   #29
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I remember reading one other book by Orson Scott Card. I'm not sure of the title or series, (Alvin Maker perhaps), but the main character crosses a stream and his genetic make up is changed in the process. It sounded like an allegory for baptism. There were several other similar passages in the book that had religious symbolism.
Yes and no. Definitely Alvin Maker that you read, but the water actually tries to kill him. His powers were brought about because he was the seventh son of a seventh son, which seems to be a recurring theme in fantasy series (I seem to recall at least one series where females attain "powers", but it has to be the ninth daughter of a ninth daughter). I'm unsure if this system has a religious implication.

For what it's worth, here's the wikipedia page.

Last edited by queentess; 01-10-2011 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:10 PM   #30
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I took AP English in High School and passed the AP Exam but I have no idea how. I always miss the symbolism and metaphors in books unless they are really, really obvious. For example, I read the Narnia Chronicles as a kid and had no idea that they were religious in nature. Heck, re-reading them as an adult I tended to miss the symbolism. So I miss most of what is in Card's novels.

Then again, I fully understood what wash happening in the Golden Compass.
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