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Old 12-29-2010, 11:08 AM   #61
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There sure are 'sheep' out there who just buy what is most popular. But the majority of the people actually think before they buy something.
1000x this.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:17 AM   #62
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as to your second point, that is a yes and no. Sure people will buy products just so they don't follow the crowd but in many instances the crowd is being pulled along by the Pied Piper. And yes some products are the most popular because they are the better choice. But both cases are far and few in between.

For example, if someone today wanted to buy a pocket sized hand held camcorder, which brand first comes to mind? The Flip? 9 out of 10 times, yes. What was more than likely the best selling pocket camcorder this Christmas season, the Flip? I'd be shocked if it wasn't. Heavy adverstising creates herd mentality. It creates the "it must be popular so that means it must be the best".

now lets say you did something of at least 30 mins. of research. Then all of a sudden the picture isn't so clear. In fact your opinion would most likely change. All of a sudden the Kodak Zi8 or Kodak Playsport seems like a better option. better rated video quality, shoots up to 1080P and all the way down to WGA for computers, expandable memory (very key) replacable Lithium ion Battery, comes with an HDMI cord included.
All features the Flip doesn't offer. So why on Earth would you buy a Flip camera?

So then why is the Flip the better selling pocket video camera?

See what I mean?
Amazon has a similar strategy, and heavy promotion is at the heart of it.
I'm not sure that examples of the most popular being the best are that few and far between. As far as the Kindle is concerned, I think that it is the best reader. The screen is clear, the device is comfortable to hold, and equally important, they have the largest selection of books at the best prices, with try before you buy. I'm not trying to convince you that it's the best - you may have other priorities - but simply that people might consider it the best with good reason.

On the Flip, people are buying a brand they've come to trust which, originally, offered them features that were unique, but which are now being overtaken by others. I don't think that they'll stay popular unless they catch up. This is different to the Kindle case, where Amazon still have the best offering on the market in my view.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:19 AM   #63
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Sheep or no sheep but I am sure that many many people buy kindle because it is the only ebook reader they are aware of.
I read a few other forums. People report that they got Kindle for Christmas or bought one as a gift. Why? Because they are the ones who read books or know other people who read books a lot. People who buy it as a gift think: WOW! Fantastic idea! They will love something cool like Kindle. They(the buyers) have no idea about existence of other ebook readers. All they(the buyers) know is Kindle. They(the buyers) buy it as a special gift for somebody they love and they(the buyers) think they will benefit from the gift.

Amazon is doing an amazing job of advertising. Doesn't matter whether there are ebook readers that might be better, you cannot beat such campaign.

P.S. I am sure that if I didn't have ebook reader and was not technically educated person to know the difference, my wife would get Kindle for me. It would be the only one she is aware of.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:32 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by astra View Post
Amazon is doing an amazing job of advertising. Doesn't matter whether there are ebook readers that might be better, you cannot beat such campaign.
And that advertising is how I found out about the Kindle (and I was not a regular Amazon customer until I got the K3. Once a year, tops). I knew about the Nook only because my friend's coworker was showing hers off, and she mentioned it to me. I had never heard of it until that point. So, I focused my research on comparing Kindle vs. Nook. Until I found this forum (after I had purchased my K3), I didn't know there were *any* other ereaders on the market. I've now seen ads for the Nook, but I have yet to see a single ad for a Sony ereader. If it weren't for this forum, I honestly wouldn't even know it exists. That's poor marketing, in my opinion.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:50 AM   #65
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I own or have owned many ereading devices but still use the Kindle the most. Why? Whispernet and the web kit. That allows me to download any book directly from Calibre without sideloading. I also have close to a dozen feeds that are automatically generated and sent to my Kindle.

I can do the same on the Pocketbook IQ and my Droid as long as I use Dropbox but then I have to use a file manager to move it into the Kindle folder if the file is mobi. If the file is ePub it is automatically opened in Aldiko. The process is not as dead simple as on the Kindle and the Kindle has the distinct advantage of the Pearl screen.

I'm definitely not a sheep, blindly following Amazon's lead.

I only see commercials during the news or football games (thanks to my media server) and have never seen a Kindle ad but the ubiquitous iPad ad is on many times during football.

Still waiting on the Honeycomb Android tablet.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:02 PM   #66
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Sheep or no sheep but I am sure that many many people buy kindle because it is the only ebook reader they are aware of.
I read a few other forums. People report that they got Kindle for Christmas or bought one as a gift. Why? Because they are the ones who read books or know other people who read books a lot. People who buy it as a gift think: WOW! Fantastic idea! They will love something cool like Kindle. They(the buyers) have no idea about existence of other ebook readers. All they(the buyers) know is Kindle. They(the buyers) buy it as a special gift for somebody they love and they(the buyers) think they will benefit from the gift.

Amazon is doing an amazing job of advertising. Doesn't matter whether there are ebook readers that might be better, you cannot beat such campaign.

P.S. I am sure that if I didn't have ebook reader and was not technically educated person to know the difference, my wife would get Kindle for me. It would be the only one she is aware of.


THANK YOU

Again I'm actually applauding Amazon's Marketing department people.

but this is also starting to head down a different rabbit hole. Going back to my original point. the reason Amazon makes these types of press releases is to feed the herd mentality.
The whole "if it's the most popular, it must be the best" is Marketing 101.
This mentality is very much alive and strong among the average consumer. And that is what company's want to feed. It's still the most powerful marketing tool.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:05 PM   #67
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And that advertising is how I found out about the Kindle (and I was not a regular Amazon customer until I got the K3. Once a year, tops). I knew about the Nook only because my friend's coworker was showing hers off, and she mentioned it to me. I had never heard of it until that point. So, I focused my research on comparing Kindle vs. Nook. Until I found this forum (after I had purchased my K3), I didn't know there were *any* other ereaders on the market. I've now seen ads for the Nook, but I have yet to see a single ad for a Sony ereader. If it weren't for this forum, I honestly wouldn't even know it exists. That's poor marketing, in my opinion.

Until I started researching ereaders, I had no idea Sony made them.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:10 PM   #68
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I knew about e-readers before Kindle, but didn't buy one till I saw the right combo of good user interface and access to books. It also made a big difference that I trusted Amazon to stick around longer term, and to offer good customer support. Marketing didn't work for me; I prefer to research and compare.

I've also ended up buying a handful of Kindles as gifts. When I buy, though, I consider what would best fit the recipient. For some people I've bought for, a Nook or an iPad was a better fit. Just because I like something doesn't mean it's ideal for someone else.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:17 PM   #69
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On the Flip, people are buying a brand they've come to trust which, originally, offered them features that were unique, but which are now being overtaken by others. I don't think that they'll stay popular unless they catch up. This is different to the Kindle case, where Amazon still have the best offering on the market in my view.
Successful products do tend to coast on reputation past their point of clear superiority. The market has built-in lag that helps the big players get through rough patches (C.F. Windows Millenium, Vista; Toyota's current issues) as long as they actually respond with suitable follow-up products. If not, they go into a death-spiral (C.F. Palm). Brand loyalty only gets you so far and relying on it excessively will get you into serious trouble (C.F. PS3 launch).

Where Kindle is different is that Kindle is on the ascendancy; each generation of hardware (and software) has seen the product get better and improve not only its market share but its competitive position vis-a-vis the alternatives.

They haven't lapped the competition but they *are* pulling away, which is why the competition needs to start taking Kindle sales numbers seriously and start looking for ways to close the gap. Talking of openness or library access or touchscreens or build quality isn't doing it. Neither is sniffing hautilly about "sheep" or "marketing".

Kobo's international alliances and B&N's NookStudy efforts, on the other hand, do hold some promise of giving Amazon something ressembling a challenge.

Maybe other players can take their games to the next level, too. But they need to listen to what the market is telling us.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:21 PM   #70
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Honestly, I think the Kindle is just a damn good ereader. The Nook garnered some good reviews, but it was clearly outdone by the Kindle. (Go back and look at David Pogue's review of the original Nook.) The Nook Color improved on the original Nook (in most areas, at least), so it'll be interesting to see how it does.

I haven't read through every post in this thread, but from the ones I've read, it seems that a lot of people are underestimating Amazo's influence as a storefront. I didn't see the Kindle a lot on TV (and frankly, the first batch of commercials for the Kindle were attrocious, from a "What can this thing do?" standpoint), but every time you go to Amazon's front page, there's the Kindle, front and center. That garners a lot of attention right there. Barnes & Noble, on the other hand, is a bookstore, primarily. People have a lot less reason to go to that site, because the merchandise isn't as broad.

And finally, I think Amazon just got the Kindle right this time around (with the exception of not having ePub support, which I know a lot of people would like). I loved my Kindle 1, but the aesthetics were horrible. The second generation was better, but not enough to justify buying it (for me, at least). With the K3, the screen improved greatly, it got smaller, and it got Wifi. That was enough to get people like me off the fence. I think that's why you're seeing a big pickup for them.

Of course, everyone's tastes are different. But I don't see any dedicated reader currently on the market ever catching up with the Kindle, if for no other reason than having Amazon behind it gives it a big advantage.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:56 PM   #71
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Successful products do tend to coast on reputation past their point of clear superiority. The market has built-in lag that helps the big players get through rough patches (C.F. Windows Millenium, Vista; Toyota's current issues) as long as they actually respond with suitable follow-up products. If not, they go into a death-spiral (C.F. Palm). Brand loyalty only gets you so far and relying on it excessively will get you into serious trouble (C.F. PS3 launch).

Where Kindle is different is that Kindle is on the ascendancy; each generation of hardware (and software) has seen the product get better and improve not only its market share but its competitive position vis-a-vis the alternatives.

They haven't lapped the competition but they *are* pulling away, which is why the competition needs to start taking Kindle sales numbers seriously and start looking for ways to close the gap. Talking of openness or library access or touchscreens or build quality isn't doing it. Neither is sniffing hautilly about "sheep" or "marketing".

Kobo's international alliances and B&N's NookStudy efforts, on the other hand, do hold some promise of giving Amazon something ressembling a challenge.

Maybe other players can take their games to the next level, too. But they need to listen to what the market is telling us.


I agree with most of your comments, right now I think there is still time to close the gap and at least be close to being on equal footing. This isn't like when Apple came in and just took the mp3 world by storm. Mp3 players have just such a more wide appeal and market as compared to ereaders.
The Kindle may own something like 70% of the market but that 70% may only be like 5% or less of the total population of potential buyers. There is still a huge untapped market out there.

So you are right at some point Barnes and Noble and Sony are going to have to truely step it up in the advertising areana. BN isn't bad I would give them B, they do run some commericials, their instore marketing is strong and their packaging/looks is head and shoulders above the competion. It's packaged very well, from a design standpoint, to it's logo right down to it's actually packaging/box.
Sony they get an F. they zero marketing.

but I do disagree with on some selling points, especially ePub. It's puts the company in a tough spot because naturally you want to sell ebooks out of your own store but there are alot of kindle owners that are shocked to learn that you can check out books from the library and many have said, at least the ones I know, if they only knew before hand they would have bought something else, like the nook or sony.
So actually I think they need to pump up this feature.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:04 PM   #72
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Honestly, I think the Kindle is just a damn good ereader. The Nook garnered some good reviews, but it was clearly outdone by the Kindle. (Go back and look at David Pogue's review of the original Nook.) The Nook Color improved on the original Nook (in most areas, at least), so it'll be interesting to see how it does.

I haven't read through every post in this thread, but from the ones I've read, it seems that a lot of people are underestimating Amazo's influence as a storefront. I didn't see the Kindle a lot on TV (and frankly, the first batch of commercials for the Kindle were attrocious, from a "What can this thing do?" standpoint), but every time you go to Amazon's front page, there's the Kindle, front and center. That garners a lot of attention right there. Barnes & Noble, on the other hand, is a bookstore, primarily. People have a lot less reason to go to that site, because the merchandise isn't as broad.

And finally, I think Amazon just got the Kindle right this time around (with the exception of not having ePub support, which I know a lot of people would like). I loved my Kindle 1, but the aesthetics were horrible. The second generation was better, but not enough to justify buying it (for me, at least). With the K3, the screen improved greatly, it got smaller, and it got Wifi. That was enough to get people like me off the fence. I think that's why you're seeing a big pickup for them.

Of course, everyone's tastes are different. But I don't see any dedicated reader currently on the market ever catching up with the Kindle, if for no other reason than having Amazon behind it gives it a big advantage.
you bring up some good points. Though I think David Pogues review of the original Nook was a bit over the top and very exaggerated at times. Barnes and noble did rush a product out before all of the kinks were ironed out. And as the old saying goes you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. another point i found disappointing about Pouges' review was unlike many other gadget reviewers, he left out that most of the bugs were firmware update fixable. Many, such as Cnet , mentioned this. And they did. By Feb. many of the bugs were fixed and by v1.3 in April, the Nook now could go against any ereader.

You second point is spot on. Sooo many people shop at Amazn for a multitude of things from blu ray/DVD's to cables to books, to mp3 players to camera's etc. And what do you see on every single page, a Kindle ad. Nothing like free advertising.

BN, well unless you plan on shopping for books, the general public basically won't just jump into the BN's website or go to BN's store.

Myself, Amazon has been my go to store for my music downloads and now that I own a Roku, ( yes I did not follow the sheep and buy an inferior Apple tv ) Amazon Video on Deman is fantastic, so I always on the website browsing. since it's easier to browse via the website as opposed to the video streaming App. And yes that is all you see, the Kindle
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:23 PM   #73
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I doubt Sony is going to step up the advertising.

Sony Reader is a miniscule part of the corporation. PS, TV, BluRay, video cameras, digital cameras and many others are so much more than the reader that I am surprised they bother to carry on. In 3 years? they will abandon the project altogether. They thought to capture the market with their own ebook shop, it failed miserably. I think it is more like a momentum carries them on for now or maybe because of famous Sony's ego and stubbornness.

It is very sad. I have played with Kindle 3 recently and disliked it a lot. Its hardware proved all my suspicions and worse. I will be very sorry when Sony quits.
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:32 PM   #74
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I doubt Sony is going to step up the advertising.

Sony Reader is a miniscule part of the corporation. PS, TV, BluRay, video cameras, digital cameras and many others are so much more than the reader that I am surprised they bother to carry on. In 3 years? they will abandon the project altogether. They thought to capture the market with their own ebook shop, it failed miserably. I think it is more like a momentum carries them on for now or maybe because of famous Sony's ego and stubbornness.

It is very sad. I have played with Kindle 3 recently and disliked it a lot. Its hardware proved all my suspicions and worse. I will be very sorry when Sony quits.
It's almost as if Sony is trying to bury their ereaders in the grave. Some very odd decisions on a few fronts. Leaving wireless off it's 650, and it's pricing scheme on it's ereader just makes you go then

its too bad, their latest models are fantastic pieces of hardware. Very top notch. Silly North America branch. you would have thought they would have learned their lesson when Apple just came in the front door and kicked Sony out of their own home (the home being the dominate force in the portable music players)
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:59 PM   #75
EowynCarter
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Posts: 4,056
Karma: 1587624
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Paris
Device: Cybooks; Sony PRS-T1
Funny, the advertising here in france about the kindle is close to zero. Though ironically, that's advertising from the fnac for the sony prs-500, that leaded me to buying the cybook gen3


Quote:
And for many people, the Kindle does offer very real advantages over other readers. Advantages that may not be important to you, but are important to other people.
Yup.
Though in my case, the kindle brings more trouble that advantages Can't get books from the French editors, can't get the US title because I'm living in EU.

Last edited by EowynCarter; 12-29-2010 at 02:01 PM.
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