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Old 09-28-2010, 02:33 PM   #31
bill_mchale
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Neither am I convinced. What... you do all the things you mentioned on one sheet of paper? Or who carries around big tablets, small tablets, organizers, post-it notes, napkins and TP all at once? No... you use multiple types of paper for different things, grabbing them as you need them. You can as easily carry around 1 or 2 devices to do the lion's share of your work, and maybe grab a third when needed on occasion. I don't expect people to do everything on a smartphone (something I always have with me), but to be smart about using other devices when needed.
My point is, you generally don't need to carry paper around with you. You can usually find some sort of paper when you need something to write on. I.e., the notion of the napkin in the diner. In contrast, a device, you either have it with you, or you don't; if you don't have it, you can't use it.

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The white board is a bit larger. And that's all I'll say comparing white boards to napkins! You could try working at work...
Who works just at work anymore? As a system administrator, I can work anywhere there is a wireless connection to the internet. A couple of years ago at Christmas, I was using my phone to connect to work. When I worked more as a programmer, I use to figure out bugs in programs in also sorts of strange places.

Get two or three engineers or scientists together (like at a diner) and don't be surprised if they start talking shop and start using napkins to jot down notes are do thumbnail calculations.

Shoot, as a SF writer, I would expect you would do it from time to time as well when you get an idea for a story and want to see if it is practical or not (Though, I don't know if you write hard SF or softer stuff).

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"Farmed trees" used for paper are not sustainable, in that filling a farm with one crop ultimately damages the local environment. It takes decades to centuries to grow an adult tree after one is felled. It is incredibly environmentally damaging to process a tree into paper, with copious water use, the chemicals and bleaches used to produce the paper and subsequently dumped into the local watershed, and the carbon burned to drive that paper to your local store. Paper can only be recycled 2-3 times, before it is useless pulp (which is generally dumped in oceans or landfills at that point).
Well, for farmed trees the average is 25-30 years. Tree farmers tend to not plant slow growing trees. Also, one doesn't need to use trees to make paper.

In any case, the fact that there is a lot of waste now in the process of making paper does not necessarily mean that the process cannot be made greener.

Besides, as others have pointed out many electronic devices are hardly environmentally friendly either. We know that a fair number of electronic devices end up in land fills... and I bet one battery is worse for the environment sitting in a land fill than several hundred pounds of paper.

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For some things, yes. Not for most of the things we daily apply it to. And not for any business-related uses at all, as far as I'm concerned. We can do better. Now that we have the means, we should do better.

As to doing new things: You get used to... what you want to get used to.
Do you still work in business Steve or are you a full time author these days?

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Old 09-28-2010, 02:53 PM   #32
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"My point is, you generally don't need to carry paper around with you. You can usually find some sort of paper when you need something to write on. I.e., the notion of the napkin in the diner. In contrast, a device, you either have it with you, or you don't; if you don't have it, you can't use it."


Are ebook readers going to replace post it notes, hmmm not this decade.
No one is saying that an ebook reader is going to make all paper obsolete. When you try to make that point your just confusing the issue. What I have not yet figured out is why your trying to do that. But it really doesn't matter in the long term.

Are ebooks and readers going to replace the mass market paperback market of which 60% are wasted without being read? Yep, and quicker than you might think too. I think the majority of us see that the end is nearing for paper distribution of books. Mass market paperbacks will in my opinion be the first to go.

But there is a huge difference between paperbacks and post it notes, or even printer paper for that matter. No one that I know of is saying that paper as paper is going to disappear off the face of the earth this decade.

BTW no one has any real idea what kind of device could come out in the next 6 - 8 years that truly could do away with paper. Who knows it could be all voice recognition or directly picking up brain waves both in and out. It might write notes, keep your calendar, watch your diet, make your phone calls, let you read your books and send all your data to some corporation for determining the best advertising campaign. Look back at what innovation has occurred in the last 10 years, then project that forward 10 years.

Paper will go the way of the dinosaur, just a question of when.

Last edited by GhostHawk; 09-28-2010 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 09-28-2010, 03:43 PM   #33
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Nope, not practical. Not until the bidet is perfected.
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Let me try that again.



Nope, not practical. Not until the Bidet app is approved.

Better.
Well, actually it was the first one that brought a smile to my face. Thanks for adding a little humor to the discussion. My office experience was that computers did increase the need for copy paper but it was more than offset by the reduction in multiple preprinted forms we kept in the office. Paper will be with us for a long time but we will use less of it as time goes by . Just think of the number of people who no longer get a daily paper and those who subscribe to magazines online.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:09 PM   #34
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One piece of the paperless revolution that is often overlooked is in document storage. Electronic storage of documents overcomes the need for warehouses full of file cabinets.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:48 PM   #35
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Looking at this http://www.google.nl/images?q=ipad+paintings I'd say ipad pretty much has drawing covered...

Meh..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CwJcpzJ4oo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YcSC4bvoYw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YcSC...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpeIjaiQjx8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IutB8sJ83Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VASX-yZd31U

That's a question you have to think over. What made the iPad so succesful? Apple fanboys only account for a couple of millions, so no matter what people tell you, that's not the reason.

Could it be the speed and usability? Or the apps available for it? Or the 10+ hours usage time? Or the 9,7"4:3-ratio IPS screen? instant on? Or maybe the combination of all these reasons? Don't know, don't care. I just knows it works better than my old tablet.
Thanks for the urls, I looked at them. Please look at demos of OneNote usage on a Tablet PC with a Wacom digitizer, the iPad bears no comparison. Firstly I can rest my hand on the tablet PC screen rather than having to hover over it. Mostly though I get responsive inking with pen nib resolution. The various iPad videos you reference show a noticable lag between stroking and the line being displayed, while resoultion seems to be at the finger rather than pen-nib level.

It sounds like the iPad suits your needs, It does not suit mine and does not match the level of stylus support I currently get from a tablet PC or slate.

My question about the suitability of an iPad in an Enterprise IT environment stands. I have used a tablet pc in a work environment and in government related work as a replacement for a paper notebook, I can't say I would be confident using an iPad in the same way.
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:43 PM   #36
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"My point is, you generally don't need to carry paper around with you. You can usually find some sort of paper when you need something to write on. I.e., the notion of the napkin in the diner. In contrast, a device, you either have it with you, or you don't; if you don't have it, you can't use it."


Are ebook readers going to replace post it notes, hmmm not this decade.
No one is saying that an ebook reader is going to make all paper obsolete. When you try to make that point your just confusing the issue. What I have not yet figured out is why your trying to do that. But it really doesn't matter in the long term.

Are ebooks and readers going to replace the mass market paperback market of which 60% are wasted without being read? Yep, and quicker than you might think too. I think the majority of us see that the end is nearing for paper distribution of books. Mass market paperbacks will in my opinion be the first to go.

But there is a huge difference between paperbacks and post it notes, or even printer paper for that matter. No one that I know of is saying that paper as paper is going to disappear off the face of the earth this decade.

BTW no one has any real idea what kind of device could come out in the next 6 - 8 years that truly could do away with paper. Who knows it could be all voice recognition or directly picking up brain waves both in and out. It might write notes, keep your calendar, watch your diet, make your phone calls, let you read your books and send all your data to some corporation for determining the best advertising campaign. Look back at what innovation has occurred in the last 10 years, then project that forward 10 years.

Paper will go the way of the dinosaur, just a question of when.
For me, paperwork reduction has meant scanning all documents that do not require me to retain the original physical copy (I keep a digital copy of those anyway "just in case") so I can destroy the originals instead of warehousing them. I pay as many bills possible online (or via automatic deduction) to avoid having to actually write checks (and the few I do my computer writes and prints for me). I have a few actual paper post-it notes in my desk but I can't remember the last time I used one. I have a virtual post-it note program I use on my computer desktop.

I communicate with friends via e-mail (with one exception; she's 75 and doesn't have the technology for e-mail). I very rarely generate paper; most of the paper I deal with comes from others and I digitize most of it before the pile becomes too deep or I need to clear my desk for something. I have as many statements as possible accessed online instead of sent as paper.

Still, a small 4 1/" x 3 1/4" composition notebook, a couple of pens, and a small audio recorder take up less room in my purse and are a lot easier to use for quick notes than anything else I've seen. I can safely use the audio recorder while driving since I can operate it one handed without taking my eyes off the road by thumbing one switch, something I wouldn't be able to do with my cell phone (it also has an audio recorder but it is buried in a couple layers of menu). It runs on AA batteries, which I carry several of for spares; I run down my cell phone, that is all she wrote.

Sadly, I'm still pretty much locked into dealing with paperbooks. Used p-books are much cheaper than e-books (when was the last time anyone bought a "used" e-book). Finding e-books of recent releases without DRM is pretty much impossible. I refuse to support DRM by buying e-books with it. Sure, I could buy them and strip the DRM, but I resent being forced to break the law and refuse do it. As long it is makes more economic sense, I'll continue to buy p-books and scan them.
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Old 09-28-2010, 06:58 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by bill_mchale View Post
My point is, you generally don't need to carry paper around with you. You can usually find some sort of paper when you need something to write on. I.e., the notion of the napkin in the diner. In contrast, a device, you either have it with you, or you don't; if you don't have it, you can't use it.
As someone who A) has never used a cocktail napkin to write on, and B) always has a PDA or smartphone with me... I can't relate.

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Who works just at work anymore? As a system administrator, I can work anywhere there is a wireless connection to the internet. A couple of years ago at Christmas, I was using my phone to connect to work. When I worked more as a programmer, I use to figure out bugs in programs in also sorts of strange places.

Get two or three engineers or scientists together (like at a diner) and don't be surprised if they start talking shop and start using napkins to jot down notes are do thumbnail calculations.
Every sysadmin and IT guy I know carries their smartphones and blackberries with them everywhere, and uses them incessantly to communicate, take notes and share info with others. Never seen one whip out a pen and paper and start writing down stuff.

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Shoot, as a SF writer, I would expect you would do it from time to time as well when you get an idea for a story and want to see if it is practical or not (Though, I don't know if you write hard SF or softer stuff).
Word and Notepad, both available on my smartphone and my laptop. Everything else is in my head.

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Besides, as others have pointed out many electronic devices are hardly environmentally friendly either. We know that a fair number of electronic devices end up in land fills... and I bet one battery is worse for the environment sitting in a land fill than several hundred pounds of paper.
Yes, and as I indicated, we can do much better in that regard. Point is, when used properly a single device can replace reams of paper, making for a smaller environmental footprint than a comparable amount of paper (and most people have no clue how large that paper's footprint really is).

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Do you still work in business Steve or are you a full time author these days?
I still have a "day job," as a web designer. I keep copious amounts of info on my PC and in my smartphone, and the only thing I ever print out is my occasional vacation recording sheet, because my HR department demands it. It is a form on the office network, and for the record, doesn't need to be printed at all... they just like it that way, in a conservative sense.

What do they do with it? They record its information into a desktop PC, and throw the paper away.
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:18 PM   #38
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...Every sysadmin and IT guy I know carries their smartphones and blackberries with them everywhere, and uses them incessantly to communicate, take notes and share info with others. Never seen one whip out a pen and paper and start writing down stuff...
When someone offers to buy one of those for me and pay the monthly bill for the rest of my life, I'll do the same. Meanwhile, pen and paper work just fine.
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:36 PM   #39
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I still have a "day job," as a web designer. I keep copious amounts of info on my PC and in my smartphone, and the only thing I ever print out is my occasional vacation recording sheet, because my HR department demands it. It is a form on the office network, and for the record, doesn't need to be printed at all... they just like it that way, in a conservative sense.

What do they do with it? They record its information into a desktop PC, and throw the paper away.
Way back when PCs were new and still running MS-Dos 2.11 I set a probably unrealistic goal of “Whenever anyone anywhere presses a computer key to enter a byte of data, no one should ever have to press a key to enter that piece of data again.”

Not there yet, but very much closer.
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:48 PM   #40
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I have managed to get rid of a lot of paper around the house - scanning any documents my tax agent needs, using netbooks and having some older computers left in kitchen etc to look up recipes and so on. The one usage I would like is an ereader for music. If I want to practice something I can display it on a computer screen, but to take out on a job and play live it is very difficult. Would need to be A4 size and also run with a foot switch to turn pages. Also a way of going back to repeat marks and showing what is coming next unless there are a few bars rest at a page turn. I won't go into all the technical difficulties but it is not like reading a book!
The other thing I still use paper for is a diary - I just cant find a device that works as well and efficiently as a paper diary (one with loose pages that can be replaced). My husband has a Blackberry and he has to keep asking me about dates as he either (1) puts the diary note on the wrong day, (2) can't be bothered having to fill out all the info for each appointment so doesn't know what he has input (!!!). The old paper diary allows sticky notes, paperclips, extra pages to write down information I might need etc etc. Apart from that I never do much actual pen/pencil + paper writing, I take lecture notes at university on a netbook, do most other things online like banking and other financial transactions.
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Old 09-29-2010, 04:06 AM   #41
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The one usage I would like is an ereader for music. If I want to practice something I can display it on a computer screen, but to take out on a job and play live it is very difficult. Would need to be A4 size and also run with a foot switch to turn pages.
Coming soon...
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Old 09-29-2010, 03:25 PM   #42
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The one usage I would like is an ereader for music. If I want to practice something I can display it on a computer screen, but to take out on a job and play live it is very difficult. Would need to be A4 size and also run with a foot switch to turn pages. Also a way of going back to repeat marks and showing what is coming next unless there are a few bars rest at a page turn. I won't go into all the technical difficulties but it is not like reading a book!
I once saw a musician who was a one man four or five piece band. He used a computer to control all of the midi tracks to accompany him as lead guitar and vocal. His rig also displayed the sheet music for the particular piece he was doing and took care of all of the page turns and repeats.

And all of this in the eighties, before there were ereaders, or even Windows, or Linux.
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Old 09-29-2010, 07:40 PM   #43
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I once saw a musician who was a one man four or five piece band. He used a computer to control all of the midi tracks to accompany him as lead guitar and vocal. His rig also displayed the sheet music for the particular piece he was doing and took care of all of the page turns and repeats.

And all of this in the eighties, before there were ereaders, or even Windows, or Linux.
Yes, I have used a computer for this job, but in a band (standing and trying to read a chart at high speed and having to sing backing vocals between everything else) it would have to be 100% reliable and have a refresh rate in the millisecond range. It will happen, but I won't start burning all my sheet music yet!
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:24 PM   #44
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I've watched my brother perform on stage for 40 years. It's his real job, and the only job he's ever had. It still amazes me to see him do that night after night; and that after spending all day on the phone and on the road booking gigs.

Anyone who says a musician’s life is easy and fun has never seen the other side of it.
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:50 PM   #45
Lady Fitzgerald
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Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Lady Fitzgerald ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
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Posts: 2,013
Karma: 251649
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tempe, AZ, USA, Earth
Device: JetBook Lite (away from home) + 1 spare, 32" TV (at home)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wodin View Post
I've watched my brother perform on stage for 40 years. It's his real job, and the only job he's ever had. It still amazes me to see him do that night after night; and that after spending all day on the phone and on the road booking gigs.

Anyone who says a musician’s life is easy and fun has never seen the other side of it.
I've seen the other side. It is fun. Easy? Yeah, right! If you believe that, I have some ocean beach front property for sale in AZ.
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