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Old 11-01-2007, 06:16 PM   #16
bowerbird
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jswolfe said:
> But, remember, we HAVE seen Kindle Edition on Amazon's website.
> Granted it was pulled. But it was there.
> So that's Amazon helping to keep the rumors alive.

again, credulity is strained. do you think they did that _on_purpose_.

in order "to keep the rumors alive"?

do you think these "rumors and speculation" do amazon any good?

seriously?

they don't need your "help" if/when they want to get public notice.
they have a very big p.r. budget, and are not lacking in page-views.

indeed, if there is any one company that _could_ release a niche gadget
a few weeks before christmas and still have a chance of having it catch,
it would be amazon. but let me tell you, as plainly and clearly as i can,
that you are not helping them. on the contrary, you're _hurting_ them,
by making it appear that they have made promises that they never made,
by making it appear that products they have not even yet _announced_
are _late_ coming to market. this is not good for them. not good at all.
you don't need to be a genius to figure out they don't want you to do it.
they want you to _stop_.

unless you are meeting _personally_ with someone from amazon
-- as i expect brad stone of the new york times _might_ have --
to get your "leak" from them directly, i would suppose that amazon
doesn't really want, or need, your "help" in spreading such "leaks"...

***

nate said:
> As the chief rumor-monger, I have said nothing about Amazon
> possibly executing a FUD campaign. I have not been doing disinformation.

i think it was clear that robert nagle kicked off the latest "rumor"
-- i put "rumor" in quotes because it doesn't even have enough
juice left in it to earn _that_ title any more -- and besides all that,
i'm not singling out any individuals. not per se. there's a vicious
circle of people here -- david rothman, brad stone for the n.y. times,
engadget, ars technica, mobileread, and a few others -- who've been
"using" each other as "sources" in what's become a big echo-chamber.

and _somebody_ has to call you on this massive misinformation...
somebody has to break this vicious circle, at some point inside of it.

and i would _hope_ you'd be responsible enough to do it yourselves.
and i must say i was encouraged by a lot of the skepticism expressed.
(but discouraged that it seemed to be directed at _amazon_ instead of
the _real_ perpetrators of this misinformation.)

then here it was, one day after we could officially say "you were wrong",
and the spin cycle was set into motion again. i would be embarrassed
to repeat my last error _immediately_, but some people have no shame.
as i said, they even act like _they_ were the duped party. what a sham.


> I have only stated the information that I have found online,
> and some guesses I have made about that information.

to me, it shows you do not know how to evaluate the _trustworthiness_
of the information that you "have found online". to me, it's no "defense"
when you repeat unfounded speculation under the banner of "speculation".
quote some sources, so we know who is responsible, so when their reports
turn out to have been incorrect, we can make adjustments to the credibility.
and, for all i know, you've done that. again, this is not directed at anyone
in particular, except for robert nagle, and i already explained about him...

(and then, of course, rothman quoted nagle, without really quoting him,
just using the "speculation" word, without any specific attribution to it,
so that then nagle could turn around and make an attribution to teleread.
it's dirty "journalism". it's an echo-chamber. it's dishonest. it's a lie.)

and nagle and rothman do this quite a bit. this is not the first time.
it's not even the 10th time.

and because of that, i know i'm not gonna get them to stop. but
maybe, just maybe, i can make robert look at what he actually said,
in that post up there, and maybe he'll realize how silly it all sounds.


> Yes, I was wrong. I helped create the hype and then got swept up in it.

good. it's really great to see that you can admit you made a mistake.


> But you have no right to verbally spank me for my errors.
> You are not a moderator here (thank God),
> you are not my boss, and you are not my Mom.

you're right. i'm just a person who cares about _the_truth_.

and a person who cares about _electronic-books_. and a person
who has seen that cause _damaged_, and damaged _repeatedly_,
by people who -- for whatever reason -- engage in "speculation".

to the point where i feel it _necessary_ -- even at the cost of
having insulting accusations levied that i'm not being "polite" --
to address one group of people (among many) doing this damage.

***

natch said:
> Just be respectful about it, is all.

there's absolutely nothing about this whole scenario that i _respect_.

you reap what you sow. when you engage in "rumors and speculation",
and they come out wrong, over and over and over again, and you _still_
continue to engage in those _exact_same_ "rumors and speculation" --
and even act like you are the aggrieved party who has been lied to --
then you've _sacrificed_ any shred of "respect" you could've expected...

(and i don't mean _you_ in particular, i mean everyone who does that.
if the shoe fits, wear it.)

i'm more than willing to grant everyone a generous share of respect.

but if they're not going to take that respect seriously, why should i?

i don't think _you_ are showing much "respect" for my deep belief that
what is being done is causing serious damage to the cause of e-books.

at least have the decency to _acknowledge_ it _could_ be a bad thing.

or make the argument that what is said here has no importance because
nobody reads it or believes it anyway. or _something_ other than a crude
accusation that i'm not being "respectful". because that's just ad hominem.


> We do have a bit to go on with the Kindle, in addition to the "Kindle Edition"
> spotted on Amazon which JSWolf mentioned, we also have the documentation
> that Amazon submitted to the FCC.

i don't think you understand.

i'm not _questioning_ that amazon is going to release an e-book machine.
for heaven's sake, they sell books, and it's perfectly obvious to everyone that
books will _eventually_ move largely to digital form, so it would be ridiculous
to assert that amazon has no intentions of being anything but a big part of that.

and i _certainly_ don't suggest they aren't doing any _research_ in that sphere.
it would be suicide for them not to do that. that f.c.c. filing might well have
been a part of an overall campaign to establish dates for patent purposes, etc.

i don't even take issue with the report -- was it from charlie stoss? -- that
one publisher told one author that amazon made a big push for mid-october.

what i _do_ take issue with is the constant repetition of that date in the blog
echo-chamber as if it was some _fact_ that was carved in stone, in spite of the
_obvious_ elephant in the room, which was that amazon itself had said nothing.

i mean, seriously, didn't you all think that was kind of strange?

believe me, once this project starts getting ready to drop, there will be
all kinds of pre-push preparations that will lead to all kinds of "leaks".

and then amazon will announce it _well_in_advance_ of the actual sale,
just like jobs made a 6-month pre-announcement on sales of the iphone.

this is _not_ the kind of product that you just _dump_ on the marketplace...
this is the kind of gadget for which you need to prep people's expectations.
you have to tell them all kinds of nice-sounding gee-whiz stuff to make 'em
_want_ to buy this newfangled product. you've got to insulate the image, so
-- as will probably be the case -- when the negatives start cascading in from
real-world people using the machine for real-world purposes in the real-world,
the image of the product is able to withstand the buffeting.

if you don't do this pre-conditioning, the machine will get very few initial sales
-- it'll just make a thump in the market, and the vacuum will be embarrassing --
and the few sales you _do_ make will result in bad press that sinks future sales.
and then you've got a big turkey on your hands. and the cause of e-books will
suffer _another_ big setback, like the dozens it has already been subjected to...

but what you're doing here? you're just messing up people's expectations badly.
you are making amazon's job harder to keep those expectations within bounds.

heck, you're even messing with your _own_ expectations. you repeated all this
"speculation" so frequently that you actually came to _believe_it_! yourselves!
when it didn't pan out, you were _disappointed_. you were _angry_at_amazon_.
because they were "duping" you. doing "disinformation" on you. yeah, right...
you duped yourselves. you did a con job on yourselves. and you believed it...
and now you'll tell me that i'm being "rude" for pointing out these simple facts.


> Let me also point out that for the most part, folks around here are pretty careful
> about stating when they're speculating, and about pointing out things as rumors
> when they are. If other sites choose to ignore those qualifiers and treat as fact
> what has been expressly presented as rumor or speculation ... I'm at a loss as to
> how we can stop them.

well, i can give you some ideas. first and foremost, you can contact them
and point out that they have failed to communicate your careful qualifiers.

you can tell them the exact same thing that i've told you here, which is that
communicating these rumors as fact, or even merely repeating them too often
under the banner of "speculation", does _real_damage_ to the cause of e-books.

next, if they keep on making the same mistake, draw attention to their speculation.
label it as such. stand out as a beacon of truth in the world of electronic-books...
believe me, there's a need for it. there is _so_ much hype and spin, it's incredible.
it would take an army of fact-checkers just to keep david rothman's blog in line...

because, i'll tell you, all these lies and hype do _not_ do good. they do _harm_...


> If we didn't discuss rumors, we wouldn't have much to talk about, now would we?

actually, i think you would. there are a lot of things happening in the real-world
which -- if you treated them with the _respect_ that real-world things deserve --
would likely be treated as far more important than they are now, when they have to
"compete" against the vapor products that keep getting reported so breathlessly...

because vapor products _never_ have any flaws.


> If you're getting a belly full of the Kindle business (can't say as I blame you),
> then let it be for a while. There are a number of topics/threads I habitually avoid
> because I'm tired of the discussions that seem to just go round and round
> without getting anywhere new. Nothing wrong with ignoring it if you'd prefer.

no. i hate _all_ the hype. all the speculation. all the unfounded "optimism".

because all of it turns people away from what we have right here, right now...

it makes them think that the e-book revolution is "around the next corner",
instead of right in front of us right now. did you notice the rise of the blog?
did you realize blogs are e-books, in serial form, being delivered here, now?

and do you understand that this is important because -- almost invisibly, and
without any real effort -- chains of corporate-publisher-gatekeepers were shed?

do you understand that mobileread -- and sites like it -- are the new publishers?

maybe you do, maybe you don't, but i can tell you for sure that most people don't.

because they still think of "publishing" as the tool that makes paper-books or
paper-newspapers, they still don't really have any clue that the world has been
turned completely upside down. they've been _told_ that it "will" happen, and
they "expect" it to happen, but they're still _waiting_ for it to happen, because
they think it depends on e-ink, or wi-fi book-downloads, or the amazon kindle.

it's so _funny_ to me when people say "e-books will arrive when the new york
publishing houses get on-board", because they seem to have no understanding
that when e-books arrive the new york publishing houses will become extinct...


> But calling folks liars

people have said things that turned out not to be true. that is a fact.
whether that makes 'em "liars" or not, well, that's not for me to judge.
i'd much rather think that they were just seriously misinformed, and
that -- once they realized that -- they would become a bit cautious.


> and demanding/ordering everyone to shut up about it
> isn't likely to work, and it really is a bit on the rude side.

i'm not in a position to "demand" or "order everyone" to "shut up".

i _suggested_ that, in order to avoid getting egg all over their face _again_,
as has happened quite a few times previously, that they adopt of strategy of
depending on _amazon_ to announce what and when _amazon_ will do things.

and if you kindly look back, you'll notice that i even prefaced my suggestion
with the word "please"...

so, you can take offense at that suggestion if you want, but it's not "rude"...
(and if you _do_ take offense, it'd make me wonder why you were so inclined.)

-bowerbird
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Old 11-01-2007, 06:53 PM   #17
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Remember it was the NYTimes article that said when the Kindle was going to debut. We didn't come up with that at all. When they publish and article like that most people tent to take it as fact that it's going to happen.
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
i don't think _you_ are showing much "respect" for my deep belief that what is being done is causing serious damage to the cause of e-books.
Well, no one is belittling it, for one thing, that's not exactly disrespectful. No one is even arguing the point, we're just asking that you tone down your rhetoric. Your points are getting lost in your aggressive tone.

This is not teleread, and handing out verbal flayings here will not affect anything over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
at least have the decency to _acknowledge_ it _could_ be a bad thing.
Sure, if that's what's bugging you: absolutely, it could be a bad thing. It could even be a bad thing in spite of the fact that most marketing types consider word of mouth to be the best advertising available.

Could this particular line of discussion (the theory that Amazon is trying to disinform the public by not saying anything at all) be counter to their aims and interests? Yeah, it probably is. I even agree that it's rather a silly notion that someone could disinform by doing their best to avoid letting out any information whatsoever in the first place. If you'd just said something along the lines of "hey, how can they be doing a dis-information campaign when they're doing their best to not allow any information out?" you'd have gotten your point across a lot more clearly with a lot less energy spent. Your points are being lost in the heat of your rhetoric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
or _something_ other than a crude accusation that i'm not being "respectful". because that's just ad hominem.
It's not ad hominem, it's an observation -- it's not an attack and it's not even an argument, it's an observation that the discussion is getting heated and a request to calm things down a bit.

No one is suggesting that you stop making your point. In fact, this is my second explicit statement to that effect.

Perhaps some time for everyone to take deep breaths and settle down might be a good thing. And then we can resume the discussion of the best way to avoid being trapped by rumors and speculation with a bit more calm, so that more good points don't get lost in the heat.
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:07 PM   #19
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Amazon, please unveil the Kindle, before this turns into a bloodshed
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:12 PM   #20
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Amazon, please unveil the Kindle, before this turns into a bloodshed
Now, now that's the last thing we want!
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:14 PM   #21
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wow. Just finished that post, it_was_very_long (those underscore thing are great, they do actually make you stress the words in your head)

I gather what you are trying to say, but i think you completely overlooked the role of sites such as mobileread.

My definition of this site is thus:

a) Niche site for a specific technology segment
b) Forum for discussing/speculating on said technology
c) defining and advancing usage of said technology (developers resource)

Now with that definition in place for myself, I would immediately understand that the core readership are what marketeers call 'early adopters'.
This is borne out by the large number of the contributers here, buying pre-production devices (iliad, and my own v2 are an example)
Now the thing with early adopters is that we will speculate about developments within our niche.
Hence i come here with the_expectation_of speculation from limited facts.
And it should come as no suprise_to_any_of_us that since the medium that is utilised for disseminating information is a vast array of interconnected computers (www), that the information/speculation is repeated and transmitted. Therefore it's designed to be an echo chamber!
Oh and as for the damage done, did i mention that we're predominately early adopters in a niche segement? So once again despite how mad we get about missed deadlines for launches (whether real or imaginary (Iliad *cough*)) we don't care..we'll buy the bloody things anyway.

Well i hope i refuted your points (your post was a little long so i might have missed some) by pointing out that speculation is great especially when it's placed in a site where we want it.
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:23 PM   #22
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natch said:
> Your points are being lost in the heat of your rhetoric.

there's no "heat" in my "rhetoric". i'm cool as a cucumber.

goodness gracious, i've been reading about the kindle for
_over_a_year_ now, here on mobileread, and on teleread,
and all over the place. i'm bored _silly_ with it by now...

and it hasn't even been officially _announced_ yet!

if i _did_ have passion for it (did you see its picture?),
that ejaculation was premature a _very_ long time ago.

there's absolutely no heat there, not for me anyway, so
even when amazon _does_ get around to announcing it,
and selling it a few months after that, i won't be able to
work up any desire for it, let alone waiting for upgrades
to where i'll believe it's a worthy machine _years_ later,
and moving enough units to drop the price to something
i consider to be "reasonable" a few years after _that_...

again, there's more than enough _reality_ here right now.

so why constantly distract people with a "next month" that
won't _actually_ arrive for another 6 months, or in 2 years?
if then?

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Old 11-01-2007, 07:28 PM   #23
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thjahar, you make some good points, at least about this hub of the echo-chamber.

i didn't stand in line for my iphone, but i did pay $600 for it... so, um, i know...

and tadw, thanks for the humor injection. sometimes i wish i could be funny... ;+)

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Old 11-01-2007, 07:40 PM   #24
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Quote:
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natch said:
> Your points are being lost in the heat of your rhetoric.

there's no "heat" in my "rhetoric". i'm cool as a cucumber.
I'm very glad to hear it! Please let a bit more of that coolness show in your word choices and phrasings and then it'll become apparent to the rest of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
so why constantly distract people with a "next month" that won't _actually_ arrive for another 6 months, or in 2 years?
if then?
That's an excellent question. I guess, for me, the answer is much what THJahar pointed out: one of the main points of MobileRead is to watch for trends and try to guess what's going to come of them, so it's not really a distraction, so much as it is kinda the point.

I don't need a new prediction every month to keep my interest up, but it's the nature of the beast. Whaddayagonnado? Personally my interest in the Kindle is more clinical: what will its features be? How will it handle DRM? What is that WhisperNet thing, anyway? Will it be less Fugly when they finally do launch it than it was in the FCC dox?

We do our best to specify what we know to be fact as fact, and clearly indicate rumors as being rumors. If I had a karma point for every time I've reminded someone that something was only a rumor, my karma would probably be higher than Alexander's is! I don't think anyone has ever suggested that we were dealing only in verified facts -- it's a discussion forum, after all, the whole point of such locales is to discuss, explore, speculate and express opinions; to solve the world's problems, if you will. We have a Wiki for the verified stuff.
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:42 PM   #25
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.. thanks for the humor injection. sometimes i wish i could be funny....
Clearly, you can be.
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if i _did_ have passion for it (did you see its picture?), that ejaculation was premature a _very_ long time ago.
I found that comment very funny.
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Old 11-01-2007, 07:50 PM   #26
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Remember, if a company says that a product is due when they say so, we can either believe them or not. Like with the Cybook Gen3, I didn't believe them and I was correct. But what you take on board as possible fact is up to you.
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post

nate said:
> As the chief rumor-monger, I have said nothing about Amazon
> possibly executing a FUD campaign. I have not been doing disinformation.
> I have only stated the information that I have found online,
> and some guesses I have made about that information.

to me, it shows you do not know how to evaluate the _trustworthiness_
of the information that you "have found online.

-bowerbird
You have truly stepped over the line. You should have actually _looked_ at the information I posted before attacking me.

I have posted the following information:

Two sets of results from the Google cache.
"kindle edition" site:amazon.com
whispernet site:amazon.com

An interesting fact about the second search: I know of at least one instance that I had found a whispernet reference (through Google) on Amazon _that_Amazon_removed_after_it_was_mentioned_here. The are only two ways that the search results might not be trustworthy: one, Amazon is faking them; two, Google is faking them. So, you think this is not a trustworthy source?

The results of a trademark search for "kindle" and "whispernet". I found a trademark for "kindle" that closely fit the description of the Amazon Kindle, and was owned by a corporation based out of a shopping center in Seattle. This corporation is also currently applying for a trademark for "whispernet" (I don't think they will get it). I found the trademark information on the federal gov't trademark dep'.t. website. I found the corporate registration on the State of Delaware website. So, you think these two sources are not trustworthy?

Some of the results of a search based on the customer service numbers listed in the Kindle Manual PDF. I have not finished this search yet.

The results of my investigation into the Kindle have appeared in dribs and drabs. This is because I did not take it seriously. I had hoped the Kindle would be released by now. But I have not ended the investigation, nor posted all that I have found.

Last edited by Nate the great; 11-01-2007 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:25 PM   #28
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nate-

i said it before -- you actually quoted it, just now! -- but i'll say it again:
> this is not directed at anyone in particular, except for robert nagle...

i hope that -- this second time around -- that is sufficiently clear...

i also said "if the shoe fits, wear it."

if you're taking things personally, ask yourself why.

(and yes, if you're _not_ taking things personally, then
the shoe doesn't fit you, and you don't have to wear it.)

-bowerbird
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
to me, it shows you do not know how to evaluate the _trustworthiness_
of the information that you "have found online".
-bowerbird
Read this quote again. This was a personal attack against me. You directly accused me of incompetence. Gee, I wonder why I take it personally. Hmm. That will take some thought.
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Old 11-01-2007, 10:16 PM   #30
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While it is true that we do collect information from the Internet and put them in one place for people to find, we also add our own views on the issues and items that we have found. Yes, I have used the term FUD in relation to the Amazon Kindle; but, unlike many consumer electronics vendors, Amazon is a direct sales site and therefore can go from nothing to full sales effort at the flick of a switch (or rather the setting of a bit.)

Also, we are not the ones that got the piece on the Kindle in the New York Times. We may be good, I didn't think we were that good.
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