Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > Miscellaneous > Lounge

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-03-2007, 12:21 AM   #1
Nate the great
Sir Penguin of Edinburgh
Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Nate the great ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Nate the great's Avatar
 
Posts: 10,626
Karma: 3586209
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: DC Metro area
Device: Shake a stick plus 1
Ripping a CD you own is STEALING...

so says Jennifer Pariser, SonyBMG's top lawyer, in the first file sharing lawsuit to go to trial.

Quote:
Pariser has a very broad definition of "stealing." When questioned by Richard Gabriel, lead counsel for the record labels, Pariser suggested that what millions of music fans do is actually theft. The dirty deed? Ripping your own CDs or downloading songs you already own.
from:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-stealing.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...n-tuesday.html

I know that we are into ebooks, not music. But the DRM issues and fair use issues are important enough that I decided to post this. Know your enemy.
Nate the great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 02:06 AM   #2
Azayzel
Cache Ninja!
Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Azayzel ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Azayzel's Avatar
 
Posts: 643
Karma: 1002300
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Device: PRS-500, HTC Shift, iPod Touch, iPaq 4150, TC1100, Panasonic WordsGear
Guess we all ultimately become villains in the corporate eye, regardless of what we do; unless we're padding their pockets for the same thing over and over.
Azayzel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 02:26 AM   #3
delphidb96
Wizard
delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,000
Karma: 300001
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Citrus Heights, California
Device: TWO Kindle 2s, one each Bookeen Cybook Gen3, Sony PRS-500, Axim X51V
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate the great View Post
so says Jennifer Pariser, SonyBMG's top lawyer, in the first file sharing lawsuit to go to trial.



from:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-stealing.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...n-tuesday.html

I know that we are into ebooks, not music. But the DRM issues and fair use issues are important enough that I decided to post this. Know your enemy.
There's only *ONE* viable response to this accusation. Every single music lover must commit to never buy from SonyBMG again - or any company which may have joined as a plaintiff or filed a 'friend of the court' in favor of Sony's side.

In fact, it might be better to not buy *ANY* CDs or downloads from any music source not run by the individual musicians. And download as many illegal copies of RIAA-backed music companies as we can get.

IOW, not one penny in settlement. Where can I contribute to the defense?


Derek
delphidb96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 03:23 AM   #4
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 65,640
Karma: 44618293
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Voyage, iPad Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, N7
"Ripping" your own CDs has never been legal in the UK, and downloading copyrighted material is most definitely a crime regardless of whether you "own" the CD or not. This is like the very silly argument some people make saying that it's "OK" to download an illegal eBook simply because you've bought the paperback.

I'm 110% on Sony's side in this. These "filesharing" criminals need to be taught a lesson. The RIAA are most definitely the "good guys" here.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 03:25 AM   #5
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 65,640
Karma: 44618293
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Voyage, iPad Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, N7
Quote:
Originally Posted by delphidb96 View Post
In fact, it might be better to not buy *ANY* CDs or downloads from any music source not run by the individual musicians. And download as many illegal copies of RIAA-backed music companies as we can get.
Derek,

With the greatest respect, I think it's highly irresponsible to urge people to commit crimes, especially on a public forum such as this. The RIAA are not the ones breaking the law; the file downloaders are.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 03:45 AM   #6
delphidb96
Wizard
delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,000
Karma: 300001
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Citrus Heights, California
Device: TWO Kindle 2s, one each Bookeen Cybook Gen3, Sony PRS-500, Axim X51V
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Derek,

With the greatest respect, I think it's highly irresponsible to urge people to commit crimes, especially on a public forum such as this. The RIAA are not the ones breaking the law; the file downloaders are.
HarryT,

Read the post I was responding to. She's saying that even ripping a CD of music files the person *HAS* purchased via download - legally - makes the ripper a criminal! Still think SonyBMG is right?

Derek
delphidb96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 03:57 AM   #7
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 65,640
Karma: 44618293
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Voyage, iPad Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, N7
I have read the article linked to, Derek, and I'm 100% in agreement with what she's saying. I understand that the "fair use" clause of copyright law in the US is rather more liberal than that of the UK, but in the UK it's not legal to "rip" or otherwise copy a CD that you've bought. I'm obviously not saying that people don't do it, but it is not legal.

The "downloading songs that you already own" bit I interpret as referring to people who download from file sharing networks music from CDs which they've purchased, hence my analogy to the idea that it's OK to download illegal eBooks that you've bought a paperback copy of.

It's all too easy to make "big business" out to be the "bad guys", but the truth is that record company profits are falling through the floor primarily due to a generation of teenagers today who seem to feel that they have some "God-given right" to download free of charge any music track that they wish, rather than going out and buying records as we did when we were that age. All these companies are doing is trying to protect their own commercial existance, and I think personally that we should support them in that, rather than supporting the criminals.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 04:30 AM   #8
HappyMartin
Martin Kristiansen
HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HappyMartin's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,461
Karma: 6786378
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Johannesburg
Device: Kindle International Ipad 2
As far as theft goes I agree with Harry I'm afraid. If you don't like the purchase contract you have the right not to make the purchase and thats about it. In South Africa you cannot purchase from the itunes store due to the absence of a suitable international copyright agreement. At least this sems not to be an issue with e books other than the Sony reader being available only in the States.

I feel a lot of sympathy however for the irritation people experience over these issues. The result of the copyright laws seem to affect only the honest purchaser. The honest purchaser is in effect "collateral" damage in the war against piracy. It seems odd that the large corporations are so prepared to anger their existing clients rather than building on that loyalty to try and create a culture of respect for copyright. That is however their right and cant be used as an argument to go over to the enemy. This is all starting to sound like a counter insurgency war and that perhaps is the way it should be tackled. First rule would be to not alienate the civilians. Hope this is not all to obscure?
HappyMartin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 05:00 AM   #9
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 65,640
Karma: 44618293
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Voyage, iPad Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, N7
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Martin; the basic problem is a fundamental lack of respect for intellectual property rights among many people today. When I was a teenager (in the mid 70s), me and virtually all my friends used to buy "45" records every week with our pocket money. These days, teenagers generally steal music by illegally downloading it. Is it any wonder that the record companies are trying to do something about these criminals?

You say:

Quote:
It seems odd that the large corporations are so prepared to anger their existing clients
What do you perceive the companies to be doing which is angering customers? I certainly don't feel angry about DRM and I positively applaud the companies for going after the criminals (as should we all!).
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 05:16 AM   #10
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 65,640
Karma: 44618293
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Voyage, iPad Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, N7
Quote:
Originally Posted by delphidb96 View Post
HarryT,

Read the post I was responding to. She's saying that even ripping a CD of music files the person *HAS* purchased via download - legally - makes the ripper a criminal! Still think SonyBMG is right?

Derek
Have you looked at the evidence in this case, Derek? Records from this woman's ISP reportedly show that 1,702 tracks were being offered for download from her IP address and using a "screen name" which she admits that she has used for many years. There does not appear to be any dispute that she was the one using the computer. It seems like a completely "open and shut" case and personally I hope that they throw the book at her to make an example to others that so-called "sharing" of music tracks is not an "acceptable" thing to do.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 05:44 AM   #11
HappyMartin
Martin Kristiansen
HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HappyMartin's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,461
Karma: 6786378
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Johannesburg
Device: Kindle International Ipad 2
Buying 45's! We must be about the same age then. What I mean by angering existing clients is a reference to people that would not pirate software, music etc but are still then subjected to onerous procedures to be able to enjoy their purchases. I will give an example of software. We run 5 copies of Adobe Photoshop at my studio. Installing upgrades is made complicated by having to prove we have the previous copy we are updating from and being online in order to activate the product. You may transfer the software from one machine to another but need to do the transfer from the machine currently activated. Should that machine die unexpectedly you then have to get on the phone and answer a bunch of questions. People cracking the software are subjected to none of this. In Adobes defense I would also be fed up with the piracy and their system does work pretty well.

I have a 4X4 vehicle with an mp3 enabled cd player and stick 6 or 7 discs on one cd. This protects my original discs and cuts down on what I carry about when heading off to the wilds of Lesotho or Namibia. My music is almost as important to me as my books. I would never pirate either but now it seems that I am breaking the law by ripping my own discs to use on a holiday where a lot of CD's are awkward to manage. This does irritate me as I do my best not to break the law. It does cut down on my enthusiasm. I am sure that my practise of copying my CD's to use while on holiday or on a photo shoot was not the primary target of Sony's copyright position. I see this as me being collateral damage.

Now I will really show my age. I think the problem is a fundamental lack of a basis for morality other than being caught and punished. This applies equally to corporates and individuals.
HappyMartin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 06:01 AM   #12
rlauzon
Wizard
rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.
 
rlauzon's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,017
Karma: 67827
Join Date: Jan 2005
Device: Opus/System76 Starling
This doublespeak is old news, really.

Here's what the EFF said back in 2006:
"It is no secret that the entertainment oligopolists are not happy about space-shifting and format-shifting. But surely ripping your own CDs to your own iPod passes muster, right? In fact, didn't they admit as much in front of the Supreme Court during the MGM v. Grokster argument last year?"

Full article

The RIAA claimed in 2005 that it was perfectly legal to rip CDs.

Not to mention that ripping CDs for personal use is very clearly fair use.
rlauzon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 06:13 AM   #13
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 65,640
Karma: 44618293
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Voyage, iPad Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, N7
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
The RIAA claimed in 2005 that it was perfectly legal to rip CDs.

Not to mention that ripping CDs for personal use is very clearly fair use.
This case is not about downloading music, but about offering it for upload by others. Whatever one may believe about the legality, or even the morality of ripping your own CDs, it's clearly not acceptable to make music tracks available for other people to download from you, is it?
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 06:17 AM   #14
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 65,640
Karma: 44618293
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: Kindle Voyage, iPad Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, N7
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMartin View Post
I will give an example of software. We run 5 copies of Adobe Photoshop at my studio. Installing upgrades is made complicated by having to prove we have the previous copy we are updating from and being online in order to activate the product. You may transfer the software from one machine to another but need to do the transfer from the machine currently activated. Should that machine die unexpectedly you then have to get on the phone and answer a bunch of questions. People cracking the software are subjected to none of this. In Adobes defense I would also be fed up with the piracy and their system does work pretty well.
I agree with you; many of the "activation" procedures required by modern PC software (especially games) are onerous in the extreme. I guess that's perhaps why the games industry is shifting towards "closed" games consoles like the Sony Playstation and Microsoft XBox which can be "locked down" and hence effectively eliminate piracy.

Quote:
I have a 4X4 vehicle with an mp3 enabled cd player and stick 6 or 7 discs on one cd. This protects my original discs and cuts down on what I carry about when heading off to the wilds of Lesotho or Namibia. My music is almost as important to me as my books. I would never pirate either but now it seems that I am breaking the law by ripping my own discs to use on a holiday where a lot of CD's are awkward to manage.
I do the same thing myself, but at least in the UK it's not legal to do so. I don't believe it's wrong to do it, but technically it's not legal.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 06:58 AM   #15
rlauzon
Wizard
rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.rlauzon put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp.
 
rlauzon's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,017
Karma: 67827
Join Date: Jan 2005
Device: Opus/System76 Starling
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
This case is not about downloading music, but about offering it for upload by others. Whatever one may believe about the legality, or even the morality of ripping your own CDs, it's clearly not acceptable to make music tracks available for other people to download from you, is it?
Legally, no. It's not acceptable.

Morally, yes. Because the current copyright laws are unfair to the general public (there's no excuse whatsoever for copyright to go beyond the author's death) and laws like the DMCA attempt to take away the rights of consumers.
rlauzon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Editorial: Are Too Many E-books Stealing the Pleasure of Reading? Bob Russell General Discussions 75 05-24-2010 01:11 PM
Stealing Light by Gary Gibson tech_au Reading Recommendations 5 01-18-2009 02:21 PM
More on ripping CDs Nate the great News 10 12-13-2007 01:03 PM
Ripping a CD... UPDATE Nate the great Lounge 66 10-18-2007 04:32 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:23 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.