Can someone explain the publishers stinking-thinking to me

CJJ · 01-21-2012, 11:43 PM

I honestly don't get it, I am not be factious here. OK, maybe a little.

I cut through Barnes & Noble on my way into the mall. I see a book I'm interested in. It's a hardcover, marked down to $5.98 from $24.00. I whip out my phone and check to see if there is a digital version.
Why yes there is! At $12.99!! and the price is the same no matter who I buy it from (Amazon, B&N or Google)

So my questions are:

Is it the book store that drops the hard cover price to less than half the ebook? Do they need the publishers permission to do this?

Is anybody making money on the hardcover at $5.98?

Is the cheaper price a reward for removing the clutter of books from B&N and putting it my house? I don't mind. I love reading, I use the library when i can for both digital and print. But I'm not rich. I'm going to go the cheaper route.

So my last question is- Are digital books going to make print books discount faster and cheaper than in the past?

It makes no sense to me. Please educate me. There is obviously something fundamental in the publishing industry I don't understand. That or they're clueless idiots.

P.S. Since I now own this book and can do with it what I may, I'd be happy to mail it to anyone who wants to read it when I'm done (although it's queued behind several books). The book is Spade and Archer by Joe Gores.

JD Gumby · 01-22-2012, 12:55 AM

Physical books are mostly bought at wholesale prices and the store can charge whatever they want.

EBooks are generally sold under the "agency model" - the publisher sets the price that the store has to sell at and the store gets a fixed cut (usually 30%).

emellaich · 01-22-2012, 10:02 AM

My guess is that the book is overstock. They printed too many and now fifty cents would be marginal profit.

Once you have produced a book, all of the editing, marketing, printing, etc. costs are sunk costs. This means the money is spent and you aren't going to get it back. If the book sells at full retail the everyone wins. However, if you have twenty thousand books sitting in a warehouse and no one wants them, the books actually cost you more money each month in storage costs. And, if they didn't sell when brand new, then they are unlikely to ever sell. You can pay to have them carted to a landfill or collect just a few cents and come out ahead.

This doesn't mean that it's a bad book. It means that they printed too many. Even if a book is the next Harry Potter it's possible to print twice what you can sell.

HarryT · 01-22-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJJ

Is it the book store that drops the hard cover price to less than half the ebook? Do they need the publishers permission to do this?

It's generally the bookstore, yes. Occasionally it'll be the publisher, to clear out stock. No, the bookstore doesn't need permission.

Quote:

Is anybody making money on the hardcover at $5.98?

Almost certainly not, no. But it's more money than they'll make from remaindering it.

Quote:

Is the cheaper price a reward for removing the clutter of books from B&N and putting it my house?

Essentially, yes. The bookstore is clearing out surplus stock to make room for more books. That really doesn't apply to eBooks.

CJJ · 01-22-2012, 11:16 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I can see some argument in paying more for the convenience of an ebook. But it doesn't make sense that I have less usage rights to the property I just bought than I would (at half the price) for the print book.

I'm surprised publishers haven't lobbied to outlaw used book stores. Of course if all publishing eventually becomes digital, the "legal" used book will be nothing but a fable recounted by Grandpa after a few glasses of wine.

elcreative · 01-22-2012, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJJ

Thanks for the clarification. I can see some argument in paying more for the convenience of an ebook. But it doesn't make sense that I have less usage rights to the property I just bought than I would (at half the price) for the print book.

I'm surprised publishers haven't lobbied to outlaw used book stores. Of course if all publishing eventually becomes digital, the "legal" used book will be nothing but a fable recounted by Grandpa after a few glasses of wine.

Actually they have in a way... tried to get a law to force a payment from every secondhand book sale but (so far) the idea sank, seems it was a "little" unpopular and would have been near impossible to enforce...

Adele Ward · 01-23-2012, 08:34 AM

As a publisher I can say that books are sold at far less than we could possibly sell them for without making a loss, in bookshops and online. The price you quote would be impossible for a publisher - it costs far more than that to print and deliver a book. I can see them from resellers on Amazon. Often they are 'loss leaders' - books sold at a loss to tempt people to buy from that seller and to go to their website where they might become a loyal customer and buy books that give the shop a profit.

CJJ · 01-23-2012, 06:27 PM

That's funny, most companies who sell products at a loss go out of business. You publishers must have wizards running your finances.

This was a brick and mortar book store, not a reseller. Unless you are saying Barnes & Noble is a reseller. I wouldn't know, but I doubt it.

The point of the whole discussion is that everyone in the book industry is spending a lot of time pointing fingers and little expenditure of brain matter figuring out a viable solution for the future.

SilverBear · 01-23-2012, 07:14 PM

Hi, CJJ.
There are so many factors influencing angles/answers to your topic that it would take a greater mind than mine to even list them all!

IMO there are a few "bottom line" issues that take precedence.
1] Everybody is in business to make money. That includes Authors, Publishers, Distributors and Retailers. If any link in the chain of production and distribution becomes unprofitable, the industry is in trouble.

2] Every general is an expert at fighting the last war. . . and not nearly so good at figuring out what to do about the next one. The main reason France folded so quickly in 1940 was not poor preparation or lack of courage. It was because they put all their preparations into refighting a 1914-style war.

IMO, publishers in general exist in today's economic climate because they are very good at making profitable business decisions . . . based on 19-20th century tech. And they have no solid idea of how to deal with 21st C. digital tech. [NOT all of them!]

Digital tech was fine so long as it was applied to make typesetting and layout less expensive and quicker! Now that it's also in distribution --as a revolutionary new medium . .. a force favouring the consumer-- methinks it has them all wishing they could turn back the clock to a simpler time.

How did the average monastery scriptorium deal with the Gutenberg revolution in the 15th century? We're talking about that big of a difference, I'd say. . .

CJJ · 01-23-2012, 08:48 PM

Thanks SilverBear. Points taken.

One place to start would be 1) Don't blame the customer and 2) Don't go out of your way to piss the customer off. Those two ideas are very technology proof.

AnemicOak · 01-23-2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJJ

I cut through Barnes & Noble on my way into the mall. I see a book I'm interested in. It's a hardcover, marked down to $5.98 from $24.00.

What you've found is a remaindered book.

These links will explain remaindered books...
http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2006/06/remainders.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remaindered_book

CJJ · 01-24-2012, 08:11 AM

[QUOTE=AnemicOak;1937637]What you've found is a remaindered book.

Well that was helpful. But given that reality I would think publishers would be tripping over each other to go digital. If done right it should be more profitable, certainly with less risk.

patrickt · 01-24-2012, 10:08 AM

CJJ: "One place to start would be 1) Don't blame the customer and 2) Don't go out of your way to piss the customer off. Those two ideas are very technology proof."

I would add a third and a fourth, CJJ. Do a bit of research and even thinking before a trip through the mall leads you to post on a forum and lose the attitude. It's doesn't compsensate for a lack of knowlege or logic.

CJJ · 01-24-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

CJJ: "One place to start would be 1) Don't blame the customer and 2) Don't go out of your way to piss the customer off. Those two ideas are very technology proof."

I would add a third and a fourth, CJJ. Do a bit of research and even thinking before a trip through the mall leads you to post on a forum and lose the attitude. It's doesn't compsensate for a lack of knowlege or logic.

You are right- I could have researched it out on my own before commenting. I certainly learned more than I shared.

However there doesn't seem to be much logic to it. But now that I have read up on it a little, it appears that the publishing industry has always been a little shady, a little dirty and very adept at taking the victim stance. But I'll drop it.

Seer · 01-25-2012, 07:55 PM

Okay, I'm a newbie in this forum, so don't all jump at me, all at once. I have to agree with CJJ. As a prolific reader, I buy a LOT of books, always have. When I see a physical book, especially at a B&N, ( (but even Wal-Mart), for less than the eBook, I feel ripped off. As a consumer, there is just no viable explanation for why a digital book, delivered electronically, with should ever cost more than a physical book with all it's encumbant costs. Period. If the publishers can't set the price lower than common retail discount stores, then they need to leave it retail pricing. It's insulting really, and I think it invites piracy.

01-21-2012, 11:43 PM	#1
CJJ Zealot Posts: 125 Karma: 189828 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Wisconsin, USA Device: laptop, iriver Story HD, Galaxy Tab2 10.1	Can someone explain the publishers stinking-thinking to me I honestly don't get it, I am not be factious here. OK, maybe a little. I cut through Barnes & Noble on my way into the mall. I see a book I'm interested in. It's a hardcover, marked down to $5.98 from $24.00. I whip out my phone and check to see if there is a digital version. Why yes there is! At $12.99!! and the price is the same no matter who I buy it from (Amazon, B&N or Google) So my questions are: Is it the book store that drops the hard cover price to less than half the ebook? Do they need the publishers permission to do this? Is anybody making money on the hardcover at $5.98? Is the cheaper price a reward for removing the clutter of books from B&N and putting it my house? I don't mind. I love reading, I use the library when i can for both digital and print. But I'm not rich. I'm going to go the cheaper route. So my last question is- Are digital books going to make print books discount faster and cheaper than in the past? It makes no sense to me. Please educate me. There is obviously something fundamental in the publishing industry I don't understand. That or they're clueless idiots. P.S. Since I now own this book and can do with it what I may, I'd be happy to mail it to anyone who wants to read it when I'm done (although it's queued behind several books). The book is Spade and Archer by Joe Gores. Last edited by CJJ; 01-22-2012 at 12:00 AM. Reason: P.S.

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01-22-2012, 12:55 AM	#2
JD Gumby Cynical Old Curmudgeon Posts: 1,085 Karma: 8495696 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Halifax, Canada Device: Kobo Mini, Kobo Arc, HTC Desire C	Physical books are mostly bought at wholesale prices and the store can charge whatever they want. EBooks are generally sold under the "agency model" - the publisher sets the price that the store has to sell at and the store gets a fixed cut (usually 30%).

01-22-2012, 10:02 AM	#3
emellaich Wizard Posts: 1,101 Karma: 4388403 Join Date: Oct 2007 Device: Palm>Ebookman>IPaq>Axim>Cybook>Kndl2>IPAD>Kndl3SO>Voyager>Oasis	My guess is that the book is overstock. They printed too many and now fifty cents would be marginal profit. Once you have produced a book, all of the editing, marketing, printing, etc. costs are sunk costs. This means the money is spent and you aren't going to get it back. If the book sells at full retail the everyone wins. However, if you have twenty thousand books sitting in a warehouse and no one wants them, the books actually cost you more money each month in storage costs. And, if they didn't sell when brand new, then they are unlikely to ever sell. You can pay to have them carted to a landfill or collect just a few cents and come out ahead. This doesn't mean that it's a bad book. It means that they printed too many. Even if a book is the next Harry Potter it's possible to print twice what you can sell.

01-22-2012, 11:16 AM	#5
CJJ Zealot Posts: 125 Karma: 189828 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Wisconsin, USA Device: laptop, iriver Story HD, Galaxy Tab2 10.1	Thanks for the clarification. I can see some argument in paying more for the convenience of an ebook. But it doesn't make sense that I have less usage rights to the property I just bought than I would (at half the price) for the print book. I'm surprised publishers haven't lobbied to outlaw used book stores. Of course if all publishing eventually becomes digital, the "legal" used book will be nothing but a fable recounted by Grandpa after a few glasses of wine.

01-23-2012, 08:34 AM	#7
Adele Ward Connoisseur Posts: 54 Karma: 490324 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: London Device: Kindle	As a publisher I can say that books are sold at far less than we could possibly sell them for without making a loss, in bookshops and online. The price you quote would be impossible for a publisher - it costs far more than that to print and deliver a book. I can see them from resellers on Amazon. Often they are 'loss leaders' - books sold at a loss to tempt people to buy from that seller and to go to their website where they might become a loyal customer and buy books that give the shop a profit.

01-23-2012, 06:27 PM	#8
CJJ Zealot Posts: 125 Karma: 189828 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Wisconsin, USA Device: laptop, iriver Story HD, Galaxy Tab2 10.1	That's funny, most companies who sell products at a loss go out of business. You publishers must have wizards running your finances. This was a brick and mortar book store, not a reseller. Unless you are saying Barnes & Noble is a reseller. I wouldn't know, but I doubt it. The point of the whole discussion is that everyone in the book industry is spending a lot of time pointing fingers and little expenditure of brain matter figuring out a viable solution for the future.

01-23-2012, 07:14 PM	#9
SilverBear ἄρκτος ὁ Μέγας Posts: 76 Karma: 155874 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Western New York State Device: Onyx Boox 60	Hi, CJJ. There are so many factors influencing angles/answers to your topic that it would take a greater mind than mine to even list them all! IMO there are a few "bottom line" issues that take precedence. 1] Everybody is in business to make money. That includes Authors, Publishers, Distributors and Retailers. If any link in the chain of production and distribution becomes unprofitable, the industry is in trouble. 2] Every general is an expert at fighting the last war. . . and not nearly so good at figuring out what to do about the next one. The main reason France folded so quickly in 1940 was not poor preparation or lack of courage. It was because they put all their preparations into refighting a 1914-style war. IMO, publishers in general exist in today's economic climate because they are very good at making profitable business decisions . . . based on 19-20th century tech. And they have no solid idea of how to deal with 21st C. digital tech. [NOT all of them!] Digital tech was fine so long as it was applied to make typesetting and layout less expensive and quicker! Now that it's also in distribution --as a revolutionary new medium . .. a force favouring the consumer-- methinks it has them all wishing they could turn back the clock to a simpler time. How did the average monastery scriptorium deal with the Gutenberg revolution in the 15th century? We're talking about that big of a difference, I'd say. . .

01-23-2012, 08:48 PM	#10
CJJ Zealot Posts: 125 Karma: 189828 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Wisconsin, USA Device: laptop, iriver Story HD, Galaxy Tab2 10.1	Thanks SilverBear. Points taken. One place to start would be 1) Don't blame the customer and 2) Don't go out of your way to piss the customer off. Those two ideas are very technology proof.

01-24-2012, 08:11 AM	#12
CJJ Zealot Posts: 125 Karma: 189828 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Wisconsin, USA Device: laptop, iriver Story HD, Galaxy Tab2 10.1	[QUOTE=AnemicOak;1937637]What you've found is a remaindered book. Well that was helpful. But given that reality I would think publishers would be tripping over each other to go digital. If done right it should be more profitable, certainly with less risk.

01-24-2012, 10:08 AM	#13
patrickt Wizard Posts: 1,221 Karma: 8381518 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Oaxaca, Mexico Device: Paperwhite 4 X 2	CJJ: "One place to start would be 1) Don't blame the customer and 2) Don't go out of your way to piss the customer off. Those two ideas are very technology proof." I would add a third and a fourth, CJJ. Do a bit of research and even thinking before a trip through the mall leads you to post on a forum and lose the attitude. It's doesn't compsensate for a lack of knowlege or logic.

01-25-2012, 07:55 PM	#15
Seer Junior Member Posts: 2 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: IPad	Okay, I'm a newbie in this forum, so don't all jump at me, all at once. I have to agree with CJJ. As a prolific reader, I buy a LOT of books, always have. When I see a physical book, especially at a B&N, ( (but even Wal-Mart), for less than the eBook, I feel ripped off. As a consumer, there is just no viable explanation for why a digital book, delivered electronically, with should ever cost more than a physical book with all it's encumbant costs. Period. If the publishers can't set the price lower than common retail discount stores, then they need to leave it retail pricing. It's insulting really, and I think it invites piracy.

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