[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

You seem to be saying a publishing contract shouldn't be the goal, and those who currently write for pay are doing it wrong, and those who aspire to write for pay should give up on it.

No, I'm saying a publishing contract isn't the be all and end all, and that 'money' as a goal is a pointless endeavour in creative works going forward into the digital age. Not that a publishing contract means anything any longer, and its especially not a guarantee of income. Money as a side-effect is worthwhile, its useful, but it's not going to make your writing any more or less pleasurable in th efirst instance. Money != passion.

But some don't. And that's the goal of a lot of aspiring writers, not fame online. (Those who want fame online without money can blog for it.)

Some writers don't have to get a second job to make ends meet, you're right, but the vast majority do. And that's the point I'm trying to make (over and over again it seems). Seeking publication in the hopes of making a living is a lottery at best and is completley out of your control. The publishers, the agents, the editors and the *spit* marketeers now decide your future. Its up to them in the end if you succeed or don't. They're the ones who market your work, they're the ones who decide whether its good enough or not, they're the ones who place it in front of the public eye. At a whim they could decide not to push your book, or send it out to reviewers or a million other little backstabbing games the industry plays and where are you as a writer -- paddles and creeks come to mind. And on your last point there, there are quite a few more bloggers making money than their are midlist writers. If you're writing for publication and money, blogging seems the best route to go.

There's a whole lot of *incredible* writing you'll never see, because it was locked up in friends-only posts at LiveJournal, which have since been deleted. The authors got validation for their writing, and whatever acclaim their community had to offer, and since there was no money on offer, when they grew tired of maintaining a place for it, it went away. It's no longer available to anyone.

What does this statement prove? If they want to be read why are they locking up their work in the first place and then allowing it to be deleted? If they cared about their work why would they pull it when there was no money involved? Sound like a bunch of whining idiots to me. I have no sympathy for them or the plight.

Payment allows a much wider distribution for creative works because payment moves it outside of a family/community effort.

I don't see how you can get any wider of a distribution than 'anybody who can connect to the internet'. Payment means nothing in that instance. If I place a work on Feedbooks or Manybooks for instance, even here on Mobileread, my potential audience is anybody who has a computer or web enabled smartphone/pda. Payment means nothing in this digital world, word of mouth and community do.

I'm willing to. I'm not willing to give up my day job for it, which is my problem. However, in another decade or so, my day job will be much less pressing; I won't be responsible for the welfare of people who can't provide for themselves.

You're advocating that I should *never* be willing to give up my day job for it--that writing should be done for kudos alone, and money should never be part of the reason for it.

No, I'm not advocatin that you should 'never' be willing to give up your day job. What I'm saying is 'don't expect that to happen', don't 'strive for that' because you'll be in for a rude awakening. If money is your goal from writing (and this has been said since the year dot when it comes to writing) then you're doing it wrong.

Kudos, I can get now. I'm not particularly interested in kudos from random total strangers; I get validation from people whose opinions I respect, and that's plenty of creative reward. I am, however, potentially interested in money from random total strangers. You're saying authors shouldn't want that, shouldn't use it as a motivation to write.

No, I'm saying it's the wrong motivation, that its a motivation fraught with dissapointment and always has been. If money is your primary concern, why write? There's a million other things that pay much better for far less effort. This was true before the digital explosion, and will be true tomorrow. Again the old quote:

There's no money in poetry, but then again, there's no poetry in money.

My creativity is doing fine. Focused, and not of interest to most people, but fine. I don't have any obligation to share it with a larger crowd, or to create enough content to fill entire bookshelves.

Good for you, and yes, you don't have any obligation. You can keep it locked inside a lead coffin at the bottom of the ocean. Me, I love the option of putting it up on Feedbooks and sharing my fiction with others.

If the larger crowd has interest in my creativity (which they probably don't, not specifically) or the creativity of a thousand other potential authors (which they do, somewhat), they need to offer an incentive for them to develop & release those works. That incentive can be money, as much as it can be online acclaim or virtual awards or literary prestige.

When the creation of art itself is payment enough, then all other considerations are null and void. Artists must in the first instance derive pleasure from the work itself, without that the work itself is pointless. No incentive is needed. I'll give you an exemplum:

Today whilst walking back from the supermarket I noticed that a patch of sunlight had broken through the otherwise darkened clouds. That patch of sunlight focused, most distinctly upon a red brick wall, giving that wall (if only the wall itself was viewed) the impression that it was a bright summer afternoon. As I walked by, viewing this most peculiar effect of light, a story started up in my mind about a man and a wall and a patch of sunlight.

Ten minutes later I was writing the story.

Now I needed no monetary incentive to write that tale. I didn't need a publishing contract or a deadline to do it. I was inspired, something of the divine spark of creation lit up in me and I felt something that I needed to put down. The passion of that moment, the fun of the next hour or so writing, I would pay you to enjoy. The incentive to create is inherent in all of us, it does not need money to be triggered.

Not saying I'd sneer at literary prestige, but the odds of my being offered a Pulitzer are a lot lower than my odds of being offered a month's rent for a story.

You seem to say I shouldn't consider writing for a month's rent.

No, again, you're making assumptions. If you could honestly get paid a month's rent from a short story, there would be nothing wrong in that. But to expect to get your months rent for the story is pointless.

Why should I bother? My friends like my writing; why should I care if you like it as well? What reward do I get out of the extra effort that takes?

You shouldn't care at all, that's great, that means you're comfortable with what you write and nobody can shake that opinion. There's very little extra effort really, in the digital world, to publish. It's as easy as signing up for a Feedbooks account and uploaded your work. Bingo-bango. Done!

I don't avoid writing. (Check my word count on recent posts in this forum.) I avoid writing for publication. It's a somewhat different skill, takes different focus, and doesn't offer enough financial reward for the effort, at this point in my life.

You're saying it never should, that I should expend that effort even if there's no reward attached. Not seeing the logic, there.

No, I'm saying the writing is the reward. The money is icing on a cake that is already delicious enough as is.