View Full Version : I've had enough with this "iPad killing Kindle" thing


Geppetto
04-15-2010, 01:26 PM
I think people - journalists, mostly - who say: "iPad will kill Kindle" or "will iPad kill Kindle?", and so on, are people who WANT iPad kill ereaders, because they DO believe ebooks will eventually kill publishing industry. They think: "look at what happened to mp3s and music industry: ebooks will do the same to publishers".
A load of crap, of course. In my opinion, record companies sell far less because they sell too much garbage, not music.

Sydney's Mom
04-15-2010, 01:34 PM
Interesting point. I was worried at first, until I realized they are for entirely different uses. Now I just figure the comment is from someone unfamiliar with the kindle and/or the ipad.

JSWolf
04-15-2010, 01:47 PM
I do think the iPad will not kill the K2. But I do think the iPad will kill the KDX. The Kindle app is what's going to allow the iPad to trump the DX.

Logseman
04-15-2010, 01:55 PM
The Kindle DX, if I recall correctly, has received a lot of flak because of its poor PDF support (the usage for which huge quantities of people buy large-screen readers). As proof, when a third-party PDF reader app with good functionality appeared for the iPad (GoodReader) people are now all about it. I am of the opinion that if the Kindle DX had had nice PDF support from the beginning, the iPad's ebook fame would be quite inferior.

jmaloney
04-15-2010, 02:07 PM
...people who WANT iPad kill ereaders, because they DO believe ebooks will eventually kill publishing industry.

I don't think anyone's saying that the iPad will kill ebooks. They're saying the iPad will kill the Kindle/eInk-based readers and will supplant them as the primary reading device for ebooks.

pholy
04-15-2010, 02:24 PM
I don't think anyone's saying that the iPad will kill ebooks. They're saying the iPad will kill the Kindle/eInk-based readers and will supplant them as the primary reading device for ebooks.

Only for people with really strong wrists... My wrist (singular) can tell the difference (after a while) between the 9 oz. PEZ (with cover) and the 12 oz. Sony 505 (with cover). And it prefers the 6 oz PEZ (without cover). I don't think a 24 oz. reader has a chance for long-term (hours and hours of) reading.

But I might get one for other uses... maybe.

Sydney's Mom
04-15-2010, 02:45 PM
But I might get one for other uses... maybe.

I thought I might, too. But I just realized that except for the weekend I spent getting my new netbook just the way I wanted it, I haven't picked it up since. The laptop is a much better experience. I better be careful around tablets!

LDBoblo
04-15-2010, 03:07 PM
XYZ-killer is a fine example of outdated or uncreative people trying too hard to make themselves sound trendy in popular media. It's just as bad as calling something a game-changer. The vernacular becomes functionally obsolete and loses its bite quickly, but has a long-lasting bitter aftertaste.

JSWolf
04-15-2010, 04:00 PM
What can the DX do that the iPad cannot do? Nothing that I know of. And given that cost of the DX, I do think most people would go the extra and get the iPad.

Teddman
04-15-2010, 04:07 PM
The DX needed to drop by at least $100 before the iPad came out, and the Kindle 2 would've been better served by a cut to $199 too.

I still don't know what Amazon is thinking by maintaining pricing on both Kindle models. Unless they just figure they'll try to make Kindle for iPad more popular than iBooks and make selling books to iPad users their main focus, or at least an equal focus with selling Kindle hardware.

dmaul1114
04-15-2010, 04:13 PM
I'm a big fan of tablets, but I hate that stuff too.

All it does is rile up the e-ink diehards, lead to a lot of "if it glows it blows" nonsense and cause threads full of bickering on sites like this.

It's not some zero sum endgame, there's plenty of room in the market for the iPad and tablets in general, e-ink and other reflective screen dedicated readers, smart phones, pdas, laptops, netbooks etc. that can display e-books and/or do other stuff as well.

I'll probably ditch my Kindle when I find the right tablet device as I've found I'm fine with reading on my girlfriend's iPad and prefer all the other functions as I spend more time on the net, video, newspapers, magazines, comics etc. than I do reading novels--that's just a chapter or 2 before sleeping 4 or so nights a week.

But I seen no reason to go around touting the death of e-ink etc. as there's a sizable niche of people who just want dedicated readers with screens ideal for reading for hours on end. And I see no reason that tablets will kill that market. It will stick around and companies will continue making money off it by releasing e-ink and other reflective screen dedicated reading devices.

I will agree that the large screen readers like the DX, Que etc. need price drops. It was niche with in a niche already for those things and I do think tablets will eat into that some. I was interested in the Que and Skiff for reading scholarly PDFs. But not anymore after using the iPad. They look great on there (screen could be an inch or so larger) and having fast page turns and scrolling is a must for research related reading, studying etc., and e-ink is just too damn slow for that. Fine for normal reading going one page forward at a time, but not good for documents you need to just flip through and skim etc.

Teyrnon
04-15-2010, 04:33 PM
It's the typical hype you get out of many journalists these days and it's often doubtful that they're even bothering to understand the things they're talking about beyond a few basic details. There also seems to be an impetus to jump on whatever bandwagon is predicting how the "next big thing" will play out and what'll result. If they think it'll sell few journalists are above the proverbial "Me too!" screed.

richman
04-15-2010, 10:27 PM
In about 6 months time we will be able to see how the Kindle holds up next to the IPAD.
It might come down to what device will a person take with them when they leave the house.
The kindle or the IPAD?
I can't see them taking both.
And at home sitting in a chair reading for an hour or so, which screen will they use, the one where they don't have to turn on a bright light or the one that you can read in the dark.

JSWolf
04-15-2010, 10:30 PM
We already know that the iPad is not a threat to the K2. The iPad is a threat to the DX. So can we please stop the K2 vs the iPad as it's not really relevant. Talk about the DX vs the iPad as that is relevant.

Dellaster
04-15-2010, 10:38 PM
We already know that the iPad is not a threat to the K2. The iPad is a threat to the DX. So can we please stop the K2 vs the iPad as it's not really relevant. Talk about the DX vs the iPad as that is relevant.

Yeah, I always thought the iPad vs Kindle 2 talk was like comparing against a Honda Accord or something 'cause, you know, the SUV can commute to work too and also do [I]so much more. Why would you choose the Accord?! :eek:

Solicitous
04-15-2010, 11:56 PM
The DX needed to drop by at least $100 before the iPad came out, and the Kindle 2 would've been better served by a cut to $199 too.

I still don't know what Amazon is thinking by maintaining pricing on both Kindle models. Unless they just figure they'll try to make Kindle for iPad more popular than iBooks and make selling books to iPad users their main focus, or at least an equal focus with selling Kindle hardware.

I don't think Amazon are too concerned at all. What needs to be realised is the Kindle and the iPad are two difference devices. If people want a dedicated ereader they will pick a Kindle over an iPad, people who want a multi function device will pick an iPad over a Kindle. Amazon have with the iPad what they want - vendor lock-in. People download the Kindle app for the iPad, buy books and find themselves locked-in. To continue reading the books people will needs to continue to have a device which supports the Kindle application, or buy a Kindle (forget DRM stripping, not a point I want to go into).

Amazon are going to get the customers, iPad owners can go a buy iBooks (60,000 to choose from) or over 300,000 ebooks from Amazon (I know there are other sources but they are not relevant to the situation). Then there is the difference in upkeep of the devices. If you want an ebook through the Kindle, well free cellular connection, download and all yours buddy. With the iPad you'll need a data plan to download ebooks from anywhere over an cellular connection.

Kali Yuga
04-16-2010, 12:01 AM
This kind of talk will not go away. The Kindle or the Nook could outsell the iPad 10 to 1, and the tech pundits would still invoke "Kindle Killers" or "iPad Killers" until some other device becomes the New Hotness.

I suggest you just ignore it.

Donnageddon
04-16-2010, 12:55 AM
It seems like just yesterday, <insert product X> was going to be the iPod killer.

ChrisC333
04-16-2010, 01:27 AM
Pot stirring and mud slinging is just a part of modern journalism. It might be annoying but it may sometimes do as much good as harm, by bringing the Kindle name to the attention of people who might not otherwise have heard of them.

Case in point:

A few months ago I'd never even heard of e-ink. When the iPad was announced the media hoopla caught my eye and I started looking into the whole matter of dedicated readers. Since then I've bought an e-ink reader (iRiver Story) an iTouch, and a Touchsmart tablet computer. I enjoy reading on all of them. I may not even ever buy an iPad. Who know, perhaps I might - but who should care but me? ;)

My guess is that the iPad won't kill anything, but it will be a solid part of a general expansion in e-reading in general - which covers not just books but a huge range of online reading. I don't see e-ink devices as capturing a big share of the overall market (which I think will be dominated by light tablet/netbook style machines) but there's no particular reason why they might not hold onto a viable niche of their own. I do think that some of them will fade away though - there's too many at the moment that do too narrow a job and don't do it especially well or at a sustainable price.

dmaul1114
04-16-2010, 02:07 AM
Amazon are going to get the customers, iPad owners can go a buy iBooks (60,000 to choose from) or over 300,000 ebooks from Amazon (I know there are other sources but they are not relevant to the situation).

That's kind of a bunk argument since there's a Kindle app for the iPad that can access those 300,000+ books in the Kindle store.

As well as the iBook store, and the Kobo store, and eventually the B&N store etc.

Tablets will have broader selections that any reader by being able to have e-book apps for the different stores/drm schemes.

Fat Abe
04-16-2010, 04:48 AM
We forget the most important benefit of Kindle ownership- snob appeal. Not the money angle, but intelligence. Do a quick survey of the Verbal section SAT scores of iPad users vs. Kindle users. Most of the people I see purchasing an iPad at Apple Stores are lowbrows. Not all, but the majority. Kindle buyers are hard core readers. Case closed. Lol.

Nilam
04-16-2010, 05:44 AM
My OS of choice is Linux. The Kindle works great on this platform as all you need to do is copy compatible documents into the "Documents" directory on the device. Calibre also works wonders for managing my library, and works great on Linux.

From past experience with Apple devices support on Linux is less than ordinary. The iPad I am assuming will be no better.

I have been using my Kindle DX for about a month now. It has significantly changed the way I work when reviewing documents in PDF. It has saved me from printing about 200 pages a week. Not to mention the 1000's of pages I used to carry around to client sites.

As I already own a laptop I do not need a device to browse the web, read e-mails etc. What I needed was a large screen device to review PDF documents. The Kindle DX meets all my needs.

I would purchase the Kindle DX over the iPad even if it cost more. So for me the iPad is not a Kindle DX killer.

Solicitous
04-16-2010, 05:54 AM
My OS of choice is Linux. The Kindle works great on this platform as all you need to do is copy compatible documents into the "Documents" directory on the device. Calibre also works wonders for managing my library, and works great on Linux.

From past experience with Apple devices support on Linux is less than ordinary. The iPad I am assuming will be no better.

I have been using my Kindle DX for about a month now. It has significantly changed the way I work when reviewing documents in PDF. It has saved me from printing about 200 pages a week. Not to mention the 1000's of pages I used to carry around to client sites.

As I already own a laptop I do not need a device to browse the web, read e-mails etc. What I needed was a large screen device to review PDF documents. The Kindle DX meets all my needs.

I would purchase the Kindle DX over the iPad even if it cost more. So for me the iPad is not a Kindle DX killer.

Glad I'm not the only one who has found to be left in the dark being a Linux user. Apple astounds me, they promote OSX having a Unix heritage, FreeBSD services, promote open source software.....but don't allow their devices to run on all this open source software!!!

That's kind of a bunk argument since there's a Kindle app for the iPad that can access those 300,000+ books in the Kindle store.

As well as the iBook store, and the Kobo store, and eventually the B&N store etc.

Tablets will have broader selections that any reader by being able to have e-book apps for the different stores/drm schemes.

That is what I was getting at, why would Amazon drop the price of the Kindle to try and attract readers when the Kindle App for the iPad will attract them anyway?

HansTWN
04-16-2010, 06:27 AM
We forget the most important benefit of Kindle ownership- snob appeal. Not the money angle, but intelligence. Do a quick survey of the Verbal section SAT scores of iPad users vs. Kindle users. Most of the people I see purchasing an iPad at Apple Stores are lowbrows. Not all, but the majority. Kindle buyers are hard core readers. Case closed. Lol.

But if you take a survey of the incomes of Ipad and Kindle users the roles will be reversed. And in the US, as far as status goes, money beats education any day.

dmaul1114
04-16-2010, 10:04 AM
That is what I was getting at, why would Amazon drop the price of the Kindle to try and attract readers when the Kindle App for the iPad will attract them anyway?

Because from reports they make more money selling Kindle hardware than they do selling e-books.

With forcing most things at $9.99 or under, they're not getting much of a cut on e-books sold, they're using prices to sell Kindle hardware.

They put out the Apps to expand the Kindle market as well--tout the best reading experience as in e-ink on the Kindle, but you can also use whisper synch and pick up where you left off on your PC, Phone, iPad etc.

dmaul1114
04-16-2010, 10:05 AM
But if you take a survey of the incomes of Ipad and Kindle users the roles will be reversed. And in the US, as far as status goes, money beats education any day.

And I'd be surprised if there was all that much difference between the two in terms of education levels of users as Apple products are super popular on college campuses among students and faculty.

Pretty ignorant statement on his/her part in any case.

JSWolf
04-16-2010, 10:16 AM
The iPad is not all that portable and doesn't work well in direct sunlight. The K2 is good in direct sunlight and is portable. So given the Kindle app for the iPad, they can compliment each other. The ipad is as portable as the DX. The main difference is direct sunlight.

dmaul1114
04-16-2010, 10:19 AM
The iPad is not all that portable and doesn't work well in direct sunlight. The K2 is good in direct sunlight and is portable. So given the Kindle app for the iPad, they can compliment each other. The ipad is as portable as the DX. The main difference is direct sunlight.

Agreed, and that's why the "Kindle Killer" stuff is silly. They are different devices. Some will just want one or the other as their reader. For others they can compliment each other.

As I said above, I do think it puts a lot of challenge on the Kindle DX, Que and other large e-ink devices as I'm not sure how that market will stand up when those devices are as much or more than the Ipad and other tablets.

They'll still sale to avid readers who just want a bigger screen and want e-ink, the long battery life etc. But as I said, that's a niche within a niche. I think most like me who want a bigger screen for PDFs for scholarly work etc. would rather have a tablet we can do more on as it's not something that gets read for hours on end like a novel reader like the Kindle 2.

=X=
04-16-2010, 11:14 AM
The iPad is not all that portable and doesn't work well in direct sunlight. The K2 is good in direct sunlight and is portable. So given the Kindle app for the iPad, they can compliment each other. The ipad is as portable as the DX. The main difference is direct sunlight.
Yes that is huge for many, including myself. But there are a few more differences that are segnificant. Battery life and free 3G.

dyrinn45
04-16-2010, 12:01 PM
ebooks would not do what digital media did to the music industry for many years. What people are seeing now are the hard core book readers getting them, It wont go "mainstream" until the good readers have a better price point, and their is some incentive(sp) to read via ebooks. Right now, with the price points of books jumping all around and the fact that you spend 250+ on a decent reader, only the really big "bookie" people get them. If a company can make an ereader that has the sex appeal of the nook, and market it for 125-199 dollars, i bet you will see a big insurgance of ereaders.

dmaul1114
04-16-2010, 12:11 PM
Yes that is huge for many, including myself. But there are a few more differences that are segnificant. Battery life and free 3G.

And that's why I see them being different devices with not much chance of killing one or the other off--other than the DX and other large screen readers maybe being in trouble if they can't get price down.

Otherwise they are very different. Only need to read text, ,want e-ink, want super long battery life and free 3G (that you can't do much with other than get books)? The Kindle 2 or other e-ink device is for you.

Want a color screen, multi function device that can do all kinds of stuff, and you don't mind reading on LCD and are fine with 10-11 hours of battery life? The the iPad (and other tablets down the road) is for you.

I don't see why so many here, so many journalists etc. treat this like some zero sum end game where either tablets or e-ink readers has to win and kill the other.

There's plenty of room in the market for both.

Fat Abe
04-16-2010, 02:13 PM
I don't see why so many here, so many journalists etc. treat this like some zero sum end game where either tablets or e-ink readers has to win and kill the other.

There's plenty of room in the market for both.

Ever since most journalists saw the movie, A Perfect Mind, they've been trying to apply the zero sum game theory to all forms of economics. Certainly, for most families, there is a finite budget for discretionary items, e.g., video games, cds, dvds, bluray discs, books, and the hardware to play each of these forms of media. To understand discretionary income, you have to look at the real estate market, and of course, the stock market. Other than getting a large pay raise or bonus, there aren't too many ways of increasing ones wealth. Sure, you could write a bestselling novel, but that is not in the cards for the average person. Thus, it always returns to (1) your job, (2) home equity, and (3) investments. During the last major stock market decline, investors lost billions of dollars. The SEC filed a civil suit against Goldman Sachs today:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303491304575187920845670844.html

However, GS is merely the latest whipping boy in the CDO scandal. These Wall Street boys, banks and GSE's took a big slice out of my pie. Laughingly, some of you probably think I was already too fat, and should go on a diet.

Bottom line- the net worth of families is starting to increase again, mortgage rates are still low, and the job market is stabilizing. Since this increases the amount of discretionary income, we move out of a zero sum game, and into a game with more (perceived) cash in the hands of consumers. Steve Jobs may not be the smartest man on the planet, but he is one of the luckiest and most opportunistic. The iPad came along in 2010 and not late 2008. Apple will sell many units, limited only by what I call the "boredom" or novelty factor. Kindle has to compete on price and features, and Bezos is probably aware of this, and planning accordingly. Both Amazon and Apple should listen to consumers NOW, and start to design in features that many on this board have loudly complained about in countless threads. If you treat your customers with indifference, you wind up like GM. Give us a compelling reason to buy your product, as well as the next product.

MV64
04-16-2010, 06:59 PM
Played with an iPad today. It was fun but didn't really seem to have a point. And having a backlit screen certainly isn't going to make me go out and replace my e-reader with it. E-ink is what makes e-readers better.

dmaul1114
04-16-2010, 07:39 PM
Played with an iPad today. It was fun but didn't really seem to have a point. And having a backlit screen certainly isn't going to make me go out and replace my e-reader with it. E-ink is what makes e-readers better.

Well the point is whether you need/want a media consumption device in tablet form factor.

If you're fine with doing all your net browsing, video watching, magazine/comic reading, large (A4) PDF reading etc. on PC or paper and reading on an e-ink reader than it definitely has little point for you.

For me I don't like the laptop/desktop form factor for any kind of reading beyond working with word documents, and I'm not that enamoured with e-ink with my Kindle as I seldom read for more than an hour (and never in direct sunlight) so I don't really reap the benefits of the screen tech.

So for me tablets like the iPad have point as they give me a device that has a form factor I prefer to laptops/pcs for reading PDFs, magazines/comics, web sites (news, blogs etc.), watching streaming video in bed (less heavy, no heat output etc.) as well as being fine for my novel reading needs.

JSWolf
04-22-2010, 03:35 PM
If a company can make an ereader that has the sex appeal of the nook, and market it for 125-199 dollars, i bet you will see a big insurgance of ereaders.

The nook is not sexy. It's kind of ugly.

leebase
04-23-2010, 09:50 AM
The iPad will only have a marginal effect on the sales of the kindle. The kindle is already expensive. I think people stretch to get the kindle....and the iPad is twice as expensive.

What the iPad will do is negate the desire for a kindle for _most_ people who buy the iPad. That will surely only represent a small part of the market.

Then you have those who really want the eInk. And who want a lighter, smaller device.

I have an iPad, love it for reading. But I was never going to pay $250 for just a dedicated ereader. I read books on my iPhone before I bought my iPad.

What the iPad WILL do, is widen the audience for ebooks. More awareness and acceptance of ebooks will result in more sales of kindles.

The iPad might end up having a net positive effect on sales of the K2 sized ereaders. The Dx -- now THAT device, I have little hope for.

Lee