View Full Version : Reflective lcd's vs e-ink


arsingh1
04-08-2010, 01:04 AM
Hi,
Some people claim that Reflective LCD devices such as Aluratek Libre pro & Ectaco jetbook are at par with the e- ink based ones.

Please discuss which technology is better of the two, in terms of strain caused on eyes & page turning capability.
THanks

bob1xxx
04-08-2010, 01:34 AM
I have the Alurtek Libre pro and love the reflective lcd screen it clear bright and easy to read and I have less eye strain than if I was reading a new paper back book its great with none of the e ink screen WOW or flash as you quickly turn the pages. If there is a short coming with reflective lcd is it battery life isn't as good as the e ink screens best Ive had with the libre is 12 hours (or a average week of reading for me). But for me the compact take everywhere size and excellent screen and drm'd books support makes libre a great deal and a steal at $159 to $169 you usually find the libre on sale.

arsingh1
04-08-2010, 02:29 AM
ok it means that the only negative point of reflective lcd technology is the battery life .
So, what about reading in bright sunlight and low lit indoors.
Which technology scores over here?
Thanks

bob1xxx
04-08-2010, 03:44 AM
Ok my experiences with reading in bright direct sunlight is excellent and in dimmer light with its reflective lcd screen I can usually tilt the screen in the direction of the light source and have a decent reading experience (i.e at night in bed with a night stand lamp for lighting) . If let's say I was going camping or read at night out doors on the beach, a battery/ rechargeable clip on reading light work well and with the jetbook or Libre's reflective screen you could get by with a less powerful light.:2thumbsup

idraw22
04-08-2010, 04:14 AM
I have the JBL and I can get by very good with reflected light. Even when I'm out at night waiting for the bus the streetlights are very good for reading. Normally, I'd have to bring a headlamp or something. The batteries seem to last about a week to ten days, depending how often I pick up. One of my fav thiings is that I don't get that glare and light bouncing off the screen. It can be blinding.:book2:

sassanik
04-08-2010, 06:58 AM
I have a EB1150 which has a LCD screen and really I never noted eye strain with it. Though I do admit that my newer e-ink screen devices have a much crisper look to the text.

I do realize that some people seem more sensitive to the LCD screens causing eye strain, so it may not be for you.


Amy

GhostHawk
04-08-2010, 09:12 AM
Jetbook and Jetbook lite both do very well no matter what light you in. From full sun to a tiny led reading light. They remain clear, crisp, and easy to read with little to no eyestrain.

While they may use more battery power, what they don't do is "flash" with every page turn. Also page turns are considerably faster than what I've seen on E-ink.

I actually read comfortably with less light with the Jetbook than I used to need with paper books. Seems the paper tended to absorb and disperse light. While Reflective TFT screen sends it back to your eyes.

TallMomof2
04-08-2010, 11:17 AM
I have a Jetbook along with the Kindle and the Jetbook suffers from poorer contrast. I find it difficult to read from unless I have bright indirect light. However, I have bad eyes your experience may differ.

.rob.
04-08-2010, 11:33 AM
Jetbook and Jetbook lite ...
While they may use more battery power, what they don't do is "flash" with every page turn. Also page turns are considerably faster than what I've seen on E-ink.

I actually read comfortably with less light with the Jetbook than I used to need with paper books. Seems the paper tended to absorb and disperse light. While Reflective TFT screen sends it back to your eyes.


GH, I hear what you mean exactly! Couldn't agree more. The 'flashing' I've seen with the Sony and Kindle Monsters is more distracting and annoying than not being able to have a dozen books in your pocket, not to mention the 'artifacts' left on the screen (that their user manuals actually warn of!)

And yes, I've found myself reading in all sorts of illumination situations that a paperBook wouldn't have 'allowed'. (eg, halfmoon-light, glaring sunlight directly over head, the light from my clock/radio).

...and how 'bout that size, man? Smaller than a trade paperback... !speaks for itself!

TallMomof2
04-08-2010, 12:58 PM
GH, I hear what you mean exactly! Couldn't agree more. The 'flashing' I've seen with the Sony and Kindle Monsters is more distracting and annoying than not being able to have a dozen books in your pocket, not to mention the 'artifacts' left on the screen (that their user manuals actually warn of!)

Newer revisions of the Kindle firmware don't leave as many artifacts (ghosting) but the pages still flash. The flash is get rid of the ghosting. With my bad eyes I don't find the flash annoying but it's a personal preference and I understand that your preferences are different.

I'm happy that there are many different products available to read ebooks so that everyone should find one that they prefer.

bob1xxx
04-08-2010, 01:26 PM
I have a Jetbook along with the Kindle and the Jetbook suffers from poorer contrast. I find it difficult to read from unless I have bright indirect light. However, I have bad eyes your experience may differ.

Yes I'd agree that any of the smaller e book readers 5 to 6 inch (lcd or e ink) would be only so so experience. If your eye site is poor the larger 9" screen on a kindle dx or other large screen e reader would better support larger font sizes, but for most folks with good or average vision with glasses i.e. me ;) the reflective lcd screen of Libre gives me a superior reading experience over e ink.

DawnFalcon
04-08-2010, 01:59 PM
Don't forget device software and rendering...just as important in this choice.

Lemurion
04-08-2010, 08:40 PM
I personally think that if they're not on a par - they're very close.

Page flips are faster, but battery life is shorter. It's a trade off. They're certainly fairly easy on the eyes.

guyanonymous
04-08-2010, 09:28 PM
Not all LCD screens are the same.

An LCD screen on your watch vs. the average on someone has on their computer are quite different.

My ebookwise 1150 has a backlit LCD. I can read all day on the thing without any more "strain" than I get reading a normal book - plus I can read it it lower and lower light down to complete darkness. I also get ~15 hours battery life and it charges completely in ~1.5 hours.

As mentioned above, brightness and contrast make a big difference. If either is too great (relative to self or the lighting you're in), you can get eye strain.

Similarly, you get eystrain if the frequency at which your monitor/screen refreshes is that which you'll notice. On my old CRT's, I noticed 'flicker' at anything below 85hz, though I could live with 75Hz (I think I have the units right). Under flourescent lighting, if memory serves, I needed 85Hz at least, or I really noticed the flicker. I could walk down the hall at work and notice instantly which people were using a lower refresh rate (i.e., left it at a lower default) instead of setting it to something other than the default 60Hz.

On LCDs used for computers, I believe the lowest refresh was 60Hz, but many are 120 now, though I could easily be wrong there. An LCD refreshes differently than a CRT, and a lower refresh rate is, for me at least, acceptable. My 60Hz monitor doesn't bother me refresh-wise at all.

All these factors combine...refresh, brightness, and contrast...to enhance (or ruin) your viewing and reading pleasure. Different people are more sensitive to these factors. This e-ink vs. lcd vs. whatever drives me a bit nuts.

My ebookwise 1150 screen is nothing like the LCD's most refer to when they talk about eyestrain, yet it gets lumped in with them. Be specific when you complain about a tech (though I don't know what language you'd use to distinguish between the dif. LCD techs in a quick, simple, and clear way). And perhaps use it before you slam it.

I'm one of those folks who, while I enjoy the crispness and contrast of e-ink, could not accept and live with the page-change 'flicker' as it drives me nuts. Similarly, it is the back-lit nature of the primitive LCD in the ebookwise that makes it even more useful for me in a wider variety of situations, and makes an e-ink device less useful. I don't always have or want to use a secondary light source to read.

All these different screens have strengths and weaknesses. Could I read on the bright lcd screen of the ipad? I suspect it wouldn't be a problem as you can adjust the brightness and contrast within the iBook software. Like I said above - this may let you get brightness/contrast/(refresh) that works for your vision or not - but simply saying it's not for you because it is an LCD screen is failing to recognize the factors involved and the possible range of settings permitted. It does a disservice to those investigating such devices and comparing them to e-ink, while not actually educating them and allowing them to make the best choice for them.

(and to disclose where I'm coming from - I'm not getting an iPad because a)I want longer battery life on my reader and b)I want an open device not tied to one vendor - but I do want to replace my ebookwise with a technologically more advanced device. I'm hoping the Adam will do what I want/need, as it sounds like it'll provide me with the nearest thing to colour e-ink, without the refresh, and with backlighting as an option)

guyanonymous
04-08-2010, 09:34 PM
And I missed the "reflective" part of the topic - my bad! sorry!

Witchbaby
04-08-2010, 09:44 PM
Newer revisions of the Kindle firmware don't leave as many artifacts (ghosting) but the pages still flash. The flash is get rid of the ghosting. With my bad eyes I don't find the flash annoying but it's a personal preference and I understand that your preferences are different.

I'm happy that there are many different products available to read ebooks so that everyone should find one that they prefer.

The flash doesn't even bother me a little bit. To me it's the same as turning the page in a pbook. :shrug:

I agree with TMo2, it's great that there are so many choices. The more people who use readers, the more mainstream ebooks become! :)

akira28
04-08-2010, 10:31 PM
I have a Jetbook along with the Kindle and the Jetbook suffers from poorer contrast. I find it difficult to read from unless I have bright indirect light. However, I have bad eyes your experience may differ.

Simply untrue. The Jetbook's contrast is rated 12:1 while e-ink has been rated at 8:1. (Please check the wiki for the facts.) The Jetbook has a mirror back so given the same light source it will always be brighter and have more contrast than e-ink. Generally eyes will strain more to see lower contrast.

Also the Jetbook's response time is rated at 20ms which e-ink based devices can only dream of.

DoctorOhh
04-08-2010, 10:50 PM
And I missed the "reflective" part of the topic - my bad! sorry!

You could have edited your first post with this message instead of leaving it jumping the topic. :)

Kris777
04-08-2010, 11:53 PM
Jetbook and Jetbook lite both do very well no matter what light you in. From full sun to a tiny led reading light. They remain clear, crisp, and easy to read with little to no eyestrain.

While they may use more battery power, what they don't do is "flash" with every page turn. Also page turns are considerably faster than what I've seen on E-ink.

I actually read comfortably with less light with the Jetbook than I used to need with paper books. Seems the paper tended to absorb and disperse light. While Reflective TFT screen sends it back to your eyes.

http://tehparadox.com/forum/images/smilies/Signs/2nimqf.gif

Kris777
04-09-2010, 12:00 AM
Hi,
Some people claim that Reflective LCD devices such as Aluratek Libre pro & Ectaco jetbook are at par with the e- ink based ones.

Please discuss which technology is better of the two, in terms of strain caused on eyes & page turning capability.
THanks

jetBook screen was discussed here:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45593http://tehparadox.com/forum/images/smilies/grouphug.gif

sassanik
04-09-2010, 04:29 AM
Not all LCD screens are the same.


(and to disclose where I'm coming from - I'm not getting an iPad because a)I want longer battery life on my reader and b)I want an open device not tied to one vendor - but I do want to replace my ebookwise with a technologically more advanced device. I'm hoping the Adam will do what I want/need, as it sounds like it'll provide me with the nearest thing to colour e-ink, without the refresh, and with backlighting as an option)

If you are looking for a replacement for your EB1150 I would suggest the Pocketbook 360, I feel it is very similar to the ergonomics of a EB1150. Its battery life is roughly 3-4 regular length novels. I have both devices and am very happy with them.

Amy

kad032000
04-09-2010, 05:09 PM
The flash doesn't even bother me a little bit. To me it's the same as turning the page in a pbook. :shrug:

Ditto.

You lose focus either way. I've never understood why the "flash" would be any more distracting than having to turn a page.

LDBoblo
04-09-2010, 05:40 PM
Tradeoffs are unfortunate.
I'd like the LCDs more, but they're a bit low on resolution, and are only integrated with other hardware that I'm not particularly fond of.

Would be nice to get a jetBook screen at 200+ppi mated to a zippier, better-designed device.

GA Russell
04-09-2010, 05:48 PM
I think they're very close, with the nod going to the jetBook screen. I'm content with my JBL; but if the situation were reversed, and it was the eInk screen that costs half what the other does, I would be content with it instead.

TallMomof2
04-09-2010, 06:14 PM
Simply untrue. The Jetbook's contrast is rated 12:1 while e-ink has been rated at 8:1. (Please check the wiki for the facts.) The Jetbook has a mirror back so given the same light source it will always be brighter and have more contrast than e-ink. Generally eyes will strain more to see lower contrast.

Also the Jetbook's response time is rated at 20ms which e-ink based devices can only dream of.

Possibly mine is defective but under the same lighting conditions where I do most of my reading the Jetbook has far less contrast. The background is not white as in your picture but a silvery taupe color that is definitely darker than the eInk screens where I read. The text is definitely blacker but the background for me is too dark to provide better contrast than eInk. Plus, there are more annoying reflections.

In very bright light, the Jetbook has about the same contrast as eInk. But I don't normally read in very bright light. Even outside I read in moderate to deep shade.

But I will say that I'd rather read on the Jetbook than on a Palm or an iPod Touch.

Kris777
04-10-2010, 02:00 AM
Possibly mine is defective but under the same lighting conditions where I do most of my reading the Jetbook has far less contrast. The background is not white as in your picture but a silvery taupe color that is definitely darker than the eInk screens where I read. The text is definitely blacker but the background for me is too dark to provide better contrast than eInk. Plus, there are more annoying reflections.

In very bright light, the Jetbook has about the same contrast as eInk. But I don't normally read in very bright light. Even outside I read in moderate to deep shade.

But I will say that I'd rather read on the Jetbook than on a Palm or an iPod Touch.

I think something wrong with your unit...
jetBook vs Kindle screen:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=98

Kris777
04-10-2010, 02:02 AM
double

Kris777
04-10-2010, 02:03 AM
double

HansTWN
04-10-2010, 04:44 AM
I guess those reflective LCD screens are ok. But with the new e-ink units page turns are very fast already and you get 20 times the battery life. So I really don't see the point! The only possible use for me would be when I am sitting in a dark area and cannot turn any lights on, like on a bus at night. But in that case I can still read on my phone. Once I turn the backlight on the only halfway comfortable setting is white text, black background. And that looks just awful on a bigger screen, anyway.

akira28
04-10-2010, 10:13 AM
I guess those reflective LCD screens are ok. But with the new e-ink units page turns are very fast already and you get 20 times the battery life. So I really don't see the point! The only possible use for me would be when I am sitting in a dark area and cannot turn any lights on, like on a bus at night. But in that case I can still read on my phone. Once I turn the backlight on the only halfway comfortable setting is white text, black background. And that looks just awful on a bigger screen, anyway.

The point is that no matter how fast slow e-ink screens can change it will always be many times slower than LCD. They will always flash to a disturbing black and with the last page remnants (at least from what I have observed with the Sonys, Kindles, and Nooks). They will have lower contrast in every lighting situation.

The battery life is not relavant since it is dependent on the manufacturers design incorporating the said LCD which is not the subject here. But the only current devices using this reflective screen are the Jetbook (Aluratek), rated at 20 hours continuous use (how many people really need more?), and the Jetbook lite, which has replaceable batteries and, assuming access to them, could extend usage beyond even the longest e-inker.

I agree with you about reading in the dark. I also think I'd rather read on my iTouch than deal with an attached light on my Jetbook.

Xanthe
04-10-2010, 10:41 AM
Don't see what the fuss is about the reflective LCD battery times. I mean, we have to charge our cell phones and our MP3 players on a regular basis and this is just one more thing to charge. I find that my Libre goes longer between charges than those two other devices. To me, it's a non-issue and not a factor in determining which technology is "better".

I don't have any actual experience of the e-ink screens (other than playing around with them in stores) so I didn't vote in the poll, but one of the factors in my purchasing the Libre was the instantaneous page turns and the lower price.

DawnFalcon
04-10-2010, 11:12 AM
Assumptions, assumptions.

Kralik
04-10-2010, 11:55 AM
I think since the ratio of e-ink users on MR to reflective LCD users is so high, you are going to see far more votes for e-ink. Who has actually tried LCD screens other than JB/Libre owners? The majority of JB/Libre owners are happy with their device. And (probably) the majority of e-ink users are happy as well.

Many e-ink readers have better features than the JB/Libre, but I don't think those are relevant to which screen technology is better. When it comes down to making a purchase, price vs. value is key for me.

Jellby
04-10-2010, 12:01 PM
I mean, we have to charge our cell phones and our MP3 players on a regular basis and this is just one more thing to charge.

And not everyone has a cell phone or an MP3 player. I have the second, and use it only sporadically.

You said "just one more thing", others would say "yet another thing" ;)

akira28
04-10-2010, 01:37 PM
I think since the ratio of e-ink users on MR to reflective LCD users is so high, you are going to see far more votes for e-ink. Who has actually tried LCD screens other than JB/Libre owners?


Exactly what I was thinking. I wonder how many voting for e-ink have actually used the reflective LCD and why they voted for e-ink.

I didn't bother to vote in the poll. I don't think the survey question was phrased very well because "best" is subjective. For example, as ridiculous as it may sound, if someone told me they wanted the screen with the lowest contrast, I would say the best for them is e-ink. If someone told me they wanted an ereader with the slowest response time I would tell them the best one for them is e-ink. If someone asked me for the highest priced class of ereaders, the best for them would be e-ink.

However, if someone were to ask me which technology is superior, I would tell them reflective LCD. In my mind, my experience, and in every specification I have come across, e-ink is at a disadvantage.

akira28
04-10-2010, 02:26 PM
I have done my own survey.

Of the 17 voters in favor of e-ink all are e-ink owners. Only one owns a reflective LCD.

Of the 7 voting for reflective LCD 2 are listed owning e-ink, 4 reflective LCD and 1 non-reflective LCD.

DoctorOhh
04-10-2010, 08:27 PM
I think since the ratio of e-ink users on MR to reflective LCD users is so high, you are going to see far more votes for e-ink. Who has actually tried LCD screens other than JB/Libre owners? The majority of JB/Libre owners are happy with their device. And (probably) the majority of e-ink users are happy as well.


I'm sure you are right. Comparing these two visually there are very minor differences. I'm all for having a reflective lcd screen. It seems that the eye strain would be just as minimal.

As a matter of fact you can get a jetBook-Lite for $99 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16858723010&cm_re=jetbook-_-58-723-010-_-Product) from Newegg.com through April 12.

I have a PRS-505 that uses eInk but I think I'll grab one for my daughter.

mrkarl
04-10-2010, 08:45 PM
I actualy took a chance with the libre and got it without ever seeing what the screen did look like because I really didn't like the eink readers that I did see....the LCD screen looks a lot nicer than the e-ink (Ithink anyway) and the battery life isn't that bad...I charge it about once a week

HansTWN
04-10-2010, 10:20 PM
The point is that no matter how fast slow e-ink screens can change it will always be many times slower than LCD. They will always flash to a disturbing black and with the last page remnants (at least from what I have observed with the Sonys, Kindles, and Nooks). They will have lower contrast in every lighting situation.

The battery life is not relavant since it is dependent on the manufacturers design incorporating the said LCD which is not the subject here. But the only current devices using this reflective screen are the Jetbook (Aluratek), rated at 20 hours continuous use (how many people really need more?), and the Jetbook lite, which has replaceable batteries and, assuming access to them, could extend usage beyond even the longest e-inker.

I agree with you about reading in the dark. I also think I'd rather read on my iTouch than deal with an attached light on my Jetbook.

I agree with you on the Sony, but on the Irex the page turns are so fast (except for very graphic intensive items like full newspapers) that any "improvement" would be lost on me. But as far as the battery goes, well I travel a lot. A long flight, several bus rides and the 15-20 hours would go by very quickly. Contrast is fine, sure if they had a device with 300-600 dpi.... And yes, I have to recharge my phone every 2 days, but if they had a phone with the same functions that could last for 2 weeks I would be all over it!

GA Russell
04-10-2010, 11:27 PM
...you get 20 times the battery life. So I really don't see the point! The only possible use for me would be when I am sitting in a dark area and cannot turn any lights on...

Hans, the poll is about the jetBook/Libre TFT screen, which is not backlit. It looks like you are thinking of a backlit LCD screen. Correct?

akira28
04-10-2010, 11:31 PM
I agree with you on the Sony, but on the Irex the page turns are so fast (except for very graphic intensive items like full newspapers) that any "improvement" would be lost on me. But as far as the battery goes, well I travel a lot. A long flight, several bus rides and the 15-20 hours would go by very quickly. Contrast is fine, sure if they had a device with 300-600 dpi.... And yes, I have to recharge my phone every 2 days, but if they had a phone with the same functions that could last for 2 weeks I would be all over it!

I have seen pictures and video of the iRex and based on those I've found it is the only device of its type that has impressed me. Yes it does have short page turns, relative to other e-inkers, that minimises the annoying black flashes but it's still there. What is different is that it appears to solve the problem of flashing the negative of the previous page (ie white text over black background) that I find so disturbing. Perhaps you could confirm this?

I had hoped to get another reader with a larger screen and thought that the iPad was going to fit the bill. But I ruled that out after seeing its low quality text. So even though I probably wouldn't get the contrast I have on the Jetbook and, since it doesn't appear that anyone is going to make a larger reflective LCD version anytime soon, I am now considering the iRex. Unfortunately the DR800SG isn't in retail stores in the USA as it is only sold via the web so it can't be checked out in person. Also, having just been introduced, according to people who own it, its firmware seems a bit incomplete.

HansTWN
04-11-2010, 12:11 AM
I have seen pictures and video of the iRex and based on those I've found it is the only device of its type that has impressed me. Yes it does have short page turns, relative to other e-inkers, that minimises the annoying black flashes but it's still there. What is different is that it appears to solve the problem of flashing the negative of the previous page (ie white text over black background) that I find so disturbing. Perhaps you could confirm this?

I had hoped to get another reader with a larger screen and thought that the iPad was going to fit the bill. But I ruled that out after seeing its low quality text. So even though I probably wouldn't get the contrast I have on the Jetbook and, since it doesn't appear that anyone is going to make a larger reflective LCD version anytime soon, I am now considering the iRex. Unfortunately the DR800SG isn't in retail stores in the USA as it is only sold via the web so it can't be checked out in person. Also, having just been introduced, according to people who own it, its firmware seems a bit incomplete.

What happens when you turn the page is that the screen turns complete black for a split second and then the new page appears. So no ghosting of the old page. As for the firmware, you are right. But a Beta version of the new firmware is already out, now we have note taking, PDF zoom, and the latest version ADE. Although there is still room for improvement.

Of course, try before you buy is always a good policy, everybody has different needs. The old e-ink flash never really bothered me, but it is nicer this way. And 8" is the way to go, the device is still very small, but now I can read some previously bought PDF books -- non-fiction with pictures and maps -- in original layout (without zoom or reflow) and it does look great.

HansTWN
04-11-2010, 12:14 AM
Hans, the poll is about the jetBook/Libre TFT screen, which is not backlit. It looks like you are thinking of a backlit LCD screen. Correct?

Yes, I was under the impression that it was backlit, but that the backlighting could be turn completely off. So it doesn't have that additional functionality.

akira28
04-11-2010, 12:27 AM
I have done my own survey.

Of the 17 voters in favor of e-ink all are e-ink owners. Only one owns a reflective LCD.

Of the 7 voting for reflective LCD 2 are listed owning e-ink, 4 reflective LCD and 1 non-reflective LCD.

Update:

Of the 5 (total 22) more voting against the reflective LCD none even own it.:blink:

Nitrousoxide
04-11-2010, 01:41 AM
Update:

Of the 5 (total 22) more voting against the reflective LCD none even own it.:blink:

What, if any, is the difference between reflective LCD techs like Pixel-Q and old techs that were implemented in things like GBA and the like? Other than there being a backlight of course.

DoctorOhh
04-11-2010, 02:34 AM
Update:

Of the 5 (total 22) more voting against the reflective LCD none even own it.:blink:

They're not voting against reflective LCD they're voting for what they know and like. Nothing confusing about that.

akira28
04-11-2010, 08:16 AM
They're not voting against reflective LCD they're voting for what they know and like. Nothing confusing about that.

Are they really voting for what they know? All but one do not list that they own the LCD. The devices that use it are on display in very few places, at least here in the US. So unless they've bought it then either sold it or returned it they probably have not seen one. Furthermore none of these people offered an explanation as to why they thought e-ink was better which casts more doubt on whether they have never actually seen the LCD or whether they understood what the question was. If those who voted against reflective LCD have not used one then the poll results are invalid.

HansTWN
04-11-2010, 08:34 AM
That was the point -- nobody voted against anything. People voted FOR something. And yes, the big one came up, battery life. That alone is the deciding factor for most people and the reason why they never even considered the Jetbook, or similar devices. No need to see the device, everybody knows how much battery life you are getting. So it is simply a question of good enough screen and vastly superior battery life. And unless you own 2 devices, who knows which screen type is really better.

akira28
04-11-2010, 08:54 AM
That was the point -- nobody voted against anything. People voted FOR something. And yes, the big one came up, battery life. That alone is the deciding factor for most people and the reason why they never even considered the Jetbook, or similar devices. No need to see the device, everybody knows how much battery life you are getting. So it is simply a question of good enough screen and vastly superior battery life. And unless you own 2 devices, who knows which screen type is really better.

The question is asking what is best overall screen technology not what the best battery life is. To be able to compare two things and deliver a valid result you must have experienced both.

Incidently the Jetbook Lite with its replaceable AA batteries crushes every battery stat on any reader that can't do the same.

Solicitous
04-11-2010, 09:16 AM
Ok on the topic of LCD vs E-ink I ask the question of durability. Which screen is theoretically the strongest? Are the LCD ereader screens durable like laptop screens? I notice my 14" laptop has some flex without damaging the screen at all, so in theory the 5" JB should (other than direct impact puncture) be indestructible. How do the e-ink screens measure up? I have read a few posts of the 9.7" screens crack from general use because of slight flex when holding the reader.

akira28
04-11-2010, 09:29 AM
Ok on the topic of LCD vs E-ink I ask the question of durability. Which screen is theoretically the strongest? Are the LCD ereader screens durable like laptop screens? I notice my 14" laptop has some flex without damaging the screen at all, so in theory the 5" JB should (other than direct impact puncture) be indestructible. How do the e-ink screens measure up? I have read a few posts of the 9.7" screens crack from general use because of slight flex when holding the reader.

My Jetbook is not flexible under normal force.

akira28
04-11-2010, 11:11 AM
What, if any, is the difference between reflective LCD techs like Pixel-Q and old techs that were implemented in things like GBA and the like? Other than there being a backlight of course.

It seems that the LCD display has been deliberately optimized for clarity, speed, and battery life. (I am unfamiliar with the technology used in the other devices you mentioned.) From the MR wiki:

Introduction

TMD has developed a TFT LCD that ensures high-contrast images by incorporating a high-resolution VGA display, with 16-level grayscale, and advanced optical performance. The newly developed TFT LCD adopts a new, highly efficient reflective surface and internal reflection technology to maximize such optical performance, providing clear and crisp images, and is able to display small, well-defined characters easily. In addition, the new product has completely eliminated the need for a backlight thanks to the highly reflective optical performance, and thus enables a low power system design, one of the essential requirements for electronic dictionaries and ensures longer battery-powered operation. Furthermore, the new product provides faster display image rewriting compared to other reflective type display technologies, thus enabling displays which are more easily legible even during fast scrolling of texts or during video clips in electronic dictionaries or books.

Specifications

Display size: 5.01-inch
Resolution: 640 x 480 (160 ppi)
Display mode: Monochrome reflective display / Internal reflective display
Contrast ratio: 12:1 (no backlight)
Response time: 20 ms
Levels of gray: 16
Power consumption: 4mW (2-level grayscale), 20 mW (16-level grayscale)
Compared to the usual E Ink display, this panel has a higher contrast ratio (12:1 vs. 8:1) and also relatively low power consumption (20 mW vs. 1mW (E Ink standby) and 750 mW (E Ink active update)). Screen refresh is a lot faster (20 ms vs. 0.5-1s).

LDBoblo
04-11-2010, 11:37 AM
I am not voting because I don't like either very much right now. EPD is too slow, and the reflective LCD is low in resolution and more limited in viewing angle. Neither has amazing contrast, and neither are featured in a device I want.

Improve EPD to solve speed (100-200ms total refresh) and improve contrast a little, and I'll see no need for the LCD. PVI is supposedly working on that, though only demos have been shown.

Until those newest monochrome EPDs are put on 200+ppi TFTs and integrated into real products though, my personal preference sways just ever-so-slightly to the LCD for its speed.

TallMomof2
04-11-2010, 12:16 PM
I think something wrong with your unit...
jetBook vs Kindle screen:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=98

The problem is how I like to read. If I read in very bright indirect light the Jetbook contrast is a little better than the Kindle but I find the metallic reflections distracting and fatiguing. Plus, in order to evenly illuminate the screen I either need to have the light source directly over my shoulder or angle the screen. The eInk screens are not as sensitive to lighting angles.

At my preferred light level and lighting angle, the Jetbook has poorer contrast than my Kindle.

Like I've stated before, my eyesight is poor and my eyes are quite sensitive. My personal preference is for eInk. It's not scientific but it's what works for me.

DawnFalcon
04-11-2010, 12:28 PM
That was the point -- nobody voted against anything.

It's not a poll, Hans, it's a way to berate eInk users for not picking the "superior screen".

Kralik
04-11-2010, 12:48 PM
Aaaaahh, the war has started! :smack:

This has been hashed and rehashed many times before. Why not just say, in a nutshell, the screens are very similar and the advantages are:

LCD: No flash.
e-ink: Longer battery.

Buy whichever device is in your price range and has the features you want.

Lemurion
04-11-2010, 12:56 PM
In my personal opinion these two display technologies are roughly comparable; neither is perfect and each has advantages the other lacks. E-Ink provides better battery life and wider viewing angles, reflective LCD provides a faster refresh and somewhat better contrast (though its contrast advantage can be offset by the limitations in viewing angle).

The end result is that different people will have valid reasons for preferring either.

However, there is one point that a poll like this is missing: People don't simply read ebooks from bare screens floating in mid-air, they read ebooks from screens that are built in to devices.

Currently, as a class, reflective LCD devices are most often aimed at the lower end of the market. The higher end devices rely primarily on E-Ink. This means that unless you are someone to whom the advantages of reflective LCD make a big difference, E-Ink will often be a better choice because it is more likely to come in a better device.

Either screen will work - the real question everyone needs to ask is which device best fits their individual needs at a price point they are willing or able to pay. The answer to this question is not going to be the same for everyone.

akira28
04-11-2010, 01:01 PM
It's not a poll, Hans, it's a way to berate eInk users for not picking the "superior screen".

DawnFalcon,

No has been berated anyone here. Questions were raised as to why the polls were getting swamped from people who appeared to be unfamiliar with reflective LCD. The people who voted for one or the other without experience of both technologies, as the pollster requested, are not the victims. The victims are the people who want an informed discussion but who will miss out from this being turning into a popularity contest.

DawnFalcon
04-11-2010, 01:17 PM
Thank you for illustrating why my point was 100% accurate. You know fullwell that reflective LCD devices are few and not massive sellers compared to eInk ones.

Anyway, as I indicated earlier, for me the defining issue is device software. And that comes down to the best ePub renderer.

Xanthe
04-11-2010, 01:18 PM
The poll itself was poorly worded. It should have been worded as "Which SCREEN technology is the best overall?". That would have eliminated the digressions about battery usage and software features.

There also should have been other answer options, such as "No answer - I've only used an e-ink screen" and "No answer - I've only used an LCD screen", and "Both are about the same" and "I don't know". ;)

DJHARKAVY
04-11-2010, 01:26 PM
How long do the e-ink devices last (continuous reading) anyway?

DawnFalcon
04-11-2010, 01:30 PM
10,000 page terms is a commonly quoted figure.

DJHARKAVY
04-11-2010, 01:31 PM
10,000 page terms is a commonly quoted figure.

Which is how long in terms of continuous reading?

Lemurion
04-11-2010, 01:34 PM
How long do the e-ink devices last (continuous reading) anyway?

I don't know that this question can really be answered, as with very few exceptions these devices will outlast the person reading. As a general rule one can expect the device will last for at least two to three days of reading as much time as a person can find to read provided it's not running something else like a wi-fi or 3G connection at the same time.

DJHARKAVY
04-11-2010, 01:49 PM
I don't know that this question can really be answered, as with very few exceptions these devices will outlast the person reading. As a general rule one can expect the device will last for at least two to three days of reading as much time as a person can find to read provided it's not running something else like a wi-fi or 3G connection at the same time.

And if it is running wifi or 3G?

I'm trying to get a feel for it...

My JBL lasts me over a week before I need to change batteries under normal circumstances.

If I read intensively, it still lasts more than a day.

LDBoblo
04-11-2010, 01:58 PM
And if it is running wifi or 3G?

I'm trying to get a feel for it...

My JBL lasts me over a week before I need to change batteries under normal circumstances.

If I read intensively, it still lasts more than a day.
Assuming no idle draw and no other things like 3G or WiFi, and you turn 1 page per minute constantly, a "normal" ebook reader that boasts 8000 pages will land you theoretically 133 hours of runtime, or about 6 times what the jetBook will manage. The major difference is that if you leave both idle, the jetBook will continue to draw power to maintain its screen image, while E-Ink will not. So if you slow the page turning to 1 every 2 minutes, the E-Ink extends to well over 200 hours of runtime, while the jetBook stays around 20-25.

Of course, this is based on advertising figures, which most devices don't seem to achieve in the real world.

DJHARKAVY
04-11-2010, 02:02 PM
Assuming no idle draw and no other things like 3G or WiFi, and you turn 1 page per minute constantly, a "normal" ebook reader that boasts 8000 pages will land you theoretically 133 hours of runtime, or about 6 times what the jetBook will manage.

Danke...

That's what I wanted to know...

For most purposes, no difference really, because I almost always have access to batteries, but if I am going to be away for a while, might be a problem...

DawnFalcon
04-11-2010, 02:02 PM
I don't really see the need to discuss 3G/Wifi power draw, DJHARKAVY, because the power draw from that is independent of that from the screen, and would be the same for a device with either.

The Sony PRS505 I borrowed for a while lasted me a week as a fairly heavy reader.

DJHARKAVY
04-11-2010, 02:05 PM
I don't really see the need to discuss 3G/Wifi power draw, DJHARKAVY, because the power draw from that is independent of that from the screen, and would be the same for a device with either.

The Sony PRS505 I borrowed for a while lasted me a week as a fairly heavy reader.

The JB and JBL don't use wireless connections to load books, so that doesn't need to be taken into account. I suppose if you turn off the 3G/wifi, it would be the same in those terms, but I rarely turn off the wifi on my enabled devices unless I am specifically trying to save power.

LDBoblo
04-11-2010, 02:26 PM
Danke...

That's what I wanted to know...

For most purposes, no difference really, because I almost always have access to batteries, but if I am going to be away for a while, might be a problem...
Certainly, if one frequently charges devices or batteries and is used to the routine, it's completely fine. Further, if one can turn the device off (or at least power-off the screen), battery life can be conserved.

I am no fan of E-Ink, but I do like the novelty of being able to toss it casually aside without turning the power off, and then pick it up several days later without any real drain and with my last page still displayed. It's really a tiny matter, but it is a nice feature.

akira28
04-11-2010, 04:22 PM
Thank you for illustrating why my point was 100% accurate.

Your accusation was 100% false. Its your sarcastic, passive-agressive, "I'm the victim" statement that I took issue with.

You know fullwell that reflective LCD devices are few and not massive sellers compared to eInk ones.

I have no knowledge of the total sales of Ectaco/Aluratek and never claimed to. What's your point?

Anyway, as I indicated earlier, for me the defining issue is device software. And that comes down to the best ePub renderer.

The subject at hand is the screen technology not the software. :offtopic:

DawnFalcon
04-11-2010, 04:36 PM
Yes, and your research of people who have voted is nothing to do with this? No, it's quite clear what you're doing.

"I have no knowledge of the total sales"

Lol. Get real.

TallMomof2
04-11-2010, 04:52 PM
I'm going to sell my Aluratek. Not because of the screen, even though I prefer eInk the nonreflective LCD is far better than backlit LCD, but because the Aluratek Libre doesn't work with Calibre. I can sideload the books but I'd rather not.

Manichean
04-11-2010, 04:57 PM
I'm going to sell my Aluratek. Not because of the screen, even though I prefer eInk the nonreflective LCD is far better than backlit LCD, but because the Aluratek Libre doesn't work with Calibre. I can sideload the books but I'd rather not.
Did you try asking Kovid to include support? From what I've seen so far, he's usually very quick about it.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just browsed the Calibre forum.

akira28
04-11-2010, 05:19 PM
Yes, and your research of people who have voted is nothing to do with this? No, it's quite clear what you're doing.

Is it? Do you have more accusations and grudges? Please PM me with them and stop wasting people's time. This is my last post on this issue. Apologies to everyone here for dragging this on this long.

:thanks::dtw:

DawnFalcon
04-11-2010, 05:31 PM
Accusations? Grudges? You are the one who made a public poll and then started researching what devices the voters used so you could tell them their opinion wasn't worthy.

If you don't want people to call you on it, don't do it.

(I didn't know you from Jack before, but your little crusade has certainly caught my attention now)

GhostHawk
04-11-2010, 06:54 PM
He didn't say their opinion wasn't worthy, he just commented on where there opinion came from.

Big difference.

HansTWN
04-11-2010, 10:10 PM
How can you leave battery life out of any discussion about e-ink displays? The long battery life is a direct function of the display, and the display only. The fact that the display only draws power when you go to a different page is one of the main features.

If you don't care about charging frequently, then reflective LCD may be fine, though the choices are rather limited.

akira28
04-11-2010, 10:41 PM
How can you leave battery life out of any discussion about e-ink displays?

This is the original poster's request (bold is mine). Nothing was mentioned about battery life.

"Some people claim that Reflective LCD devices such as Aluratek Libre pro & Ectaco jetbook are at par with the e- ink based ones.

Please discuss which technology is better of the two, in terms of strain caused on eyes & page turning capability.
THanks"

The long battery life is a direct function of the display, and the display only. The fact that the display only draws power when you go to a different page is one of the main features.

Isn't battery life also a function of the battery type and size?

If you don't care about charging frequently, then reflective LCD may be fine, though the choices are rather limited.

What do you mean by frequent? I get a few days worth on mine as do others.

HansTWN
04-11-2010, 10:49 PM
Isn't battery life also a function of the battery type and size?

What do you mean by frequent? I get a few days worth on mine as do others.

Of course, there are other factors having an influence on battery life. But all other things being equal you get an increase in battery life by a factor of 6-10 just by using an e-ink screen instead of a reflective LCD.

You get a few days, we get a few weeks.

bob1xxx
04-11-2010, 10:59 PM
I'm going to sell my Aluratek. Not because of the screen, even though I prefer eInk the nonreflective LCD is far better than backlit LCD, but because the Aluratek Libre doesn't work with Calibre. I can sideload the books but I'd rather not.

Really? very time I used cailbre it works fine and just see it as a jetbook?:blink: For me I like my Lbre, the lcd screen is great for me, its compact size I can carry it everywhere I go, I like it support of drm books and I dont consider having to charge it once every 7 days Horrible life draining burden;) and sense I'm using 100% time for reading books (not pdf blue prints of the bismark ;) ) for the money is the perfect e reading device for now....ask me again in six to eighteen months I might have a different answer for you :thumbsup:;)

DoctorOhh
04-11-2010, 11:04 PM
Of course, there are other factors having an influence on battery life. But all other things being equal you get an increase in battery life by a factor of 6-10 just by using an e-ink screen instead of a reflective LCD.

You get a few days, we get a few weeks.

All things being equal you are correct, but they aren't always equal. A case in point I use my PRS-505 and generally top off the charge every 3 or 4 days.

The reason for this is because I'm 51 years old and in order to avoid reading glasses I increase the font size. This increased font size means that for every 1 page in an ePub book I have to flip through about 9-10 screens. That means that for one 400 page ePub novel I will have turned through about 4000 screens.

So you can see that I would be recharging as often with my Sony as I expect to with my Jetbook (recharge about every 20-22 hours of use) I just bought for $99. I concede that for most folks there is a substantial increase in battery life using e-ink but it is not always so cut and dry.

Of course all that said I like the fact that eInk uses minimal power when just sitting around waiting for me to read. My use of the jetbook will require me to turn it on and off much more often.

GA Russell
04-11-2010, 11:18 PM
...But all other things being equal you get an increase in battery life by a factor of 6-10 just by using an e-ink screen instead of a reflective LCD.

You get a few days, we get a few weeks.

Hans, I don't think that this is correct. My understanding is that a moderate user of an eInk device will get four weeks between charges, and a moderate user of a jetBook will get two weeks. I know that I get about two weeks between changing batteries with my jetBook Lite.

Going four weeks without a charge is great, but jetBook aficianadoes here often point out that charging every other week is not an inconvenience.

akira28
04-11-2010, 11:57 PM
Of course, there are other factors having an influence on battery life. But all other things being equal you get an increase in battery life by a factor of 6-10 just by using an e-ink screen instead of a reflective LCD.

You get a few days, we get a few weeks.

Hans,

In all the reviews I've read about the dr800sg its been said that it only gets about one week which is probably about the same as most people get on the Jetbook and that's fine with me. But is the life that much shorter than on your Sony?

HansTWN
04-12-2010, 12:10 AM
Hans,

In all the reviews I've read about the dr800sg its been said that it only gets about one week which is probably about the same as most people get on the Jetbook and that's fine with me. But is the life that much shorter than on your Sony?

What I have read from others in this forum it is about 2 weeks. I cannot comment on this at the moment, since I am downloading a lot of stuff every day via USB (which will recharge at the same time). I am trying out newspaper direct and work PDFs, etc at the moment. The only time I have used it for heavy reading over the weekend without charging at all for 2 days I did not notice any movement in the battery indicator. I will also be using it as a business tool and note book (the Sony cannot do any of that), so my usage cannot be compared.

I had the Sony with me on a 14 day vacation once (with many hours of reading every day) and didn't have to charge it.

TallMomof2
04-12-2010, 11:11 AM
Really? very time I used cailbre it works fine and just see it as a jetbook?:blink: For me I like my Lbre, the lcd screen is great for me, its compact size I can carry it everywhere I go, I like it support of drm books and I dont consider having to charge it once every 7 days Horrible life draining burden;) and sense I'm using 100% time for reading books (not pdf blue prints of the bismark ;) ) for the money is the perfect e reading device for now....ask me again in six to eighteen months I might have a different answer for you :thumbsup:;)

Yes, the Libre is seen as a Jetbook but Calibre doesn't load the files into the root of either the SD or the main memory so my Libre doesn't see them. If I drag those files to the root then I get a message saying that the file cannot be read.

If I load the ebooks directly from the Calibre directory bypassing Calibre then the books can be opened by the Libre. I've noticed that Calibre names the files differently when it downloads the files to the Libre adding "#" to the file name. Maybe that's why the Libre can't read the file. I'm running the latest version of Calibre.

Yes, the ADE support is great and I could easily load even my non secure ePUbs into the ADE software and use that to download to the Libre but I use Calibre for library management and don't want another program just for the Libre. Since it's trivial to remove the ADE DRM I prefer to use Calibre for all my library needs.

The Libre is a nice device just not the right one for my needs.

astra
04-14-2010, 05:35 AM
There is nothing better than e-Ink for me.

The best type of screen for reading for my eyes and superb battery life.

wodin
04-14-2010, 02:50 PM
I have a Sony PRS505, and a JetBook. Regarding readability; they are about equal even though the Sony has a 6" screen and the JetBook is only 5". The Sony's battery life is much better, but the speed of page changes on the JetBook more than makes up for having to charge it more often.

The Sony’s firmware (and my wife's K2) is very much better than the JetBook’s, but that has nothing to do with the screen technology. Given the choice, and if the firmware was equal, I’d prefer the reflective LCD.

bob1xxx
04-16-2010, 03:03 AM
Do this poll a year to a year and a half from now and I will bet a e reader with reflective lcd with L.e.d back lighting will be the the hands down winner;) They'll be cheaper than e-ink , faster, most will have flexible Grey/ color lcd screens and thank god will be non apple so they will have decent prices :p lol. Yes they'll have shorter battery life you'll have to condensed to charge it every 7 to 10 days but really is that such a horrible burden?;) . The vast majority of things in life are usually livable successful compromises , tech devices are no exception to this rule. For ME right now the Aluratek Libre pro is the best reasonably price e book reader that suits MY personal needs excellently , Hey for someone else who 200 hour battery life is a big deal some slow 1st gen e ink reader would be the hot set up, but at the end of the day what e reader suits your need best is what you should buy:eek:;):D;):thumbsup:

astra
04-16-2010, 04:50 AM
LEDs don't solve the problem for me.
My netbook is backlit by LEDs and I cannot read texts on it for longer than 15 minutes without feeling eye strain.

I work with computers every day, all day long. Working with a computer, such as browsing the Internet, typing in word, editing pictures is a whole different kettle of fish experience. It cannot be compared to "a static" reading of text. At the very least it is different for me. I am not saying I don't get tired but not as fast. Also, it is unavoidable. On the other hand, reading fantasy is a pure relaxation for me and when I read printed books my eyes don't get tired, eInk grants me the same gift.

HansTWN
04-16-2010, 10:41 AM
6 pages in this thread alone -- arguing over something that every man (or woman) must decide for him or herself! I read a lot on LCD screens, I have had old PDAs with reflective screens. But when I have the option, it is e-ink for me. With a good reading light, of course! When it comes to my eyes, I do what feels best to me. The human eye is a complex organ. Age, inherited traits, how you treated them when you were young, where you live, the time of year, what you eat. All that impacts your vision. Nobody really knows what is good and apparently what is good for me is not necessarily true for the next person.

Don't listen to anyone, just try it out yourself.

astra
04-16-2010, 10:56 AM
6 pages in this thread alone -- arguing over something that every man (or woman) must decide for him or herself! I read a lot on LCD screens, I have had old PDAs with reflective screens. But when I have the option, it is e-ink for me. With a good reading light, of course! When it comes to my eyes, I do what feels best to me. The human eye is a complex organ. Age, inherited traits, how you treated them when you were young, where you live, the time of year, what you eat. All that impacts your vision. Nobody really knows what is good and apparently what is good for me is not necessarily true for the next person.

Don't listen to anyone, just try it out yourself.

Hear! Hear!

However, there are always a few who think that if somebody dislikes what they love, they think they can declare very loudly: we are being discriminated!!! Their tiny brains cannot comprehend that majority might like something else, because "How dare they!? Majority is US!!!"

akira28
04-28-2010, 09:34 AM
The above statement clearly violates MR forum rule #1 which states the following:

1. Discuss Things Politely

Our members have developed a strong, constructive online community. To help maintain this friendly, supportive atmosphere, we ask that you follow these standards of politeness.

MobileRead is intended to be a family-safe and work-safe website. Please post accordingly.

Do attempt to state your point of view in a way that avoids misunderstanding. It would be helpful to distinguish between opinion and fact, and to word your post in a way that helps others to understand what you mean. Remember that we are an international community and not all members are posting in their first language.

When things get controversial please disagree with the opinion, not the person.

Don’t say, “You’re an idiot,” or “anyone who thinks that is crazy.” Instead, say, “I disagree,” or better still, “I disagree because…”

Try to understand what someone else is saying before you react. Because we are an international forum, we have a wide diversity of cultural backgrounds, traditions, and legal systems. Remember that other members may have different laws and practices. Also remember that humor often translates poorly across languages and cultures; try to be sensitive to others when you post, and tolerant of others when you read their posts.

A rude comment is still rude, even if you follow it with a smiley, “just kidding” or “I’m only joking” or “This is meant to be humorous.”

Deliberately provoking other members (also known as “trolling”) is prohibited. Members who post provocative or inflammatory posts will be warned. Persistent offenders may be banned. MobileRead reserves the right to limit discussion that is outside the realm of good taste, or uses foul or hateful language. We won’t tolerate any form of hate-speech.

Remember that you can use the “ignore” function to ignore a member whose posts irritate you.



Its a shame that some people are not capable of discussion without resorting to hurling personal insults at others who hold different views. It's more of a shame that the moderators encourage this behavior by not addressing it when it occurs.

DawnFalcon
04-28-2010, 11:47 AM
Yes, because your creepy witch hunt against people who answered the poll you made is really polite. Oh, wait, it's not.

astra
04-28-2010, 01:12 PM
The above statement clearly violates MR forum rule #1

That's how I feel when my, personal, opinion on a particular subject is being insulted by being labelled a discrimination.

LDBoblo
04-28-2010, 01:22 PM
Is it really so wrong to expect participants of a poll between 2 choices to actually know what both choices are and, heaven forbid, have experience with both of them?

Perhaps it wasn't clarified well enough early on...I think the guy just wanted informed opinions. Seems reasonable enough. Some people voting apparently don't even know what reflective LCD is; they just see LCD and think "backlight no bad evil eyestrain!" Not particularly helpful.

Addendum: All that said, I think perhaps the OP is a little on the defensive side, assuming that ownership is knowledge and complaining that people who vote against it don't own it...

DawnFalcon
04-28-2010, 01:52 PM
Is it really so wrong to expect participants of a poll between 2 choices to actually know what both choices are and, heaven forbid, have experience with both of them?

Yes, when it's not spelled out. It's creepy and intrusive to have the poll owner to actively root through people's profiles to see what devices they're currently claiming they have to berate them!

akira28
04-28-2010, 06:01 PM
That's how I feel when my, personal, opinion on a particular subject is being insulted by being labelled a discrimination.

No one did anything of the sort. What you are saying is a smoke screen for your desire to be able to insult anyone here with impunity. It was your own derogatory statement that may have labeled you as an e-ink bigot.

Your reasoning is faulty an your statements are hypocritical. On one hand you want your opinion heard, but on the other hand you treat people who voice a different opinion than yours with sarcasm and scorn. Yes, you have labeled yourself.

astra
04-28-2010, 06:30 PM
You just proved my point.
Thank you very much.

akira28
04-28-2010, 08:27 PM
You just proved my point.
Thank you very much.

Thanks for proving mine.

DoctorOhh
04-28-2010, 11:05 PM
The above statement clearly violates MR forum rule #1 which states the following:

...~~~...

Its a shame that some people are not capable of discussion without resorting to hurling personal insults at others who hold different views. It's more of a shame that the moderators encourage this behavior by not addressing it when it occurs.

The thread has been dead for 12 days and you start it up again by complaining about a relatively innocuous post. What does this accomplish? :smack:

To add to the topic, I recently bought two jetBook Lites for my kids. I had a chance to use one and I decided that I prefer my 505 eInk screen because the jetBook Lite screen has too much of a glare problem. I'm sure I could get used to it with a little time but it does stand out in the short run.

akira28
04-29-2010, 02:03 AM
The thread has been dead for 12 days and you start it up again by complaining about a relatively innocuous post. What does this accomplish? :smack:

dwanthy:

Just to set the record straight it was astra who renewed the personal insults on the 4/16. (Please note that 1. It was my intention not to engage with DawnFalcon again and 2. DawnFalcon and astra are apparently one in the same.) You and I have a different view on what is and what is not innocuous. I don't believe MR members should have to tolerate these types of abuses. Maybe some people would laugh them off but what does that accomplish? Aren't you better off asking DawnFalcon-astra why she/he/they initiated the attacks, continued pressing, and then renewed them out of the blue?

To add to the topic, I recently bought two jetBook Lites for my kids. I had a chance to use one and I decided that I prefer my 505 eInk screen because the jetBook Lite screen has too much of a glare problem. I'm sure I could get used to it with a little time but it does stand out in the short run.

Thanks for your view.

DoctorOhh
04-29-2010, 02:45 AM
The thread has been dead for 12 days and you start it up again by complaining about a relatively innocuous post. What does this accomplish? :smack:

Just to set the record straight it was astra who renewed the personal insults on the 4/16.

The record is that 12 days after this thread stopped you saw fit to re-engage by claiming offense from what one MR member said to another MR member.

There was no personal attack! :smack:

You quoted the rules,Deliberately provoking other membersPoking someone after 12 days is deliberately provoking. There just isn't anything to be gain by it.

I think you might want to consider...
Remember that you can use the “ignore” function to ignore a member whose posts irritate you.


It is easy to do.

Aren't you better off asking DawnFalcon-astra why she/he/they initiated the attacks, continued pressing, and then renewed them out of the blue?

The only member who "came out of the blue" is you.

There is a slogan/saying in the States, friends don't let friends drive drunk. I think the saying could reasonably be modified to say, friends don't let friends post off meds.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts in other threads.

astra
04-29-2010, 05:44 AM
dwanthy:

Just to set the record straight it was astra who renewed the personal insults on the 4/16.

The hole you are digging for yourself is deeper and deeper.

Where is a personal insult in my post:
However, there are always a few who think that if somebody dislikes what they love, they think they can declare very loudly: we are being discriminated!!! Their tiny brains cannot comprehend that majority might like something else, because "How dare they!? Majority is US!!!"

It is an insult. It insults people who behave the way I described. Unless you belong to the group, how can it insult you, even if we liked different types of screen?
Ah, right. You associate yourself with the group I mentioned, don't you? ;)

DawnFalcon
04-29-2010, 12:59 PM
2. DawnFalcon and astra are apparently one in the same.)

Moderators, please check this out. If we are, ban us. If they are not, ban akira. Thanks!

akira28
04-29-2010, 11:49 PM
The record is that 12 days after this thread stopped you saw fit to re-engage by claiming offense from what one MR member said to another MR member.

Restating the forum rules is hardly an offensive act.

There was no personal attack! :smack:

According to the forum rules it was.

You quoted the rules,Poking someone after 12 days is deliberately provoking.

Quoting the forum rules does not equate to a poke or provocation by any sense of the words.


I think you might want to consider...


It is easy to do.

That can be also be done by DawnFalcon-astra and yourself.





The only member who "came out of the blue" is you.

There is a slogan/saying in the States, friends don't let friends drive drunk. I think the saying could reasonably be modified to say, friends don't let friends post off meds.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts in other threads.

For someone who criticizes provocations, it is very troubling that you are trying to invoke them here. And I will not return your sarcasms. I am willing to end this, are you?

DoctorOhh
04-30-2010, 12:33 AM
The record is that 12 days after this thread stopped you saw fit to re-engage by claiming offense from what one MR member said to another MR member.

Restating the forum rules is hardly an offensive act.

You may wish to have a friend clarify the quoted statement. I didn't say your action was "an offensive act."

I made certain assumptions :o, my apologies if English isn't your native language.

There was no personal attack! :smack:
According to the forum rules it was.

In my reading of the "personal attack" it was clear that the statement did not directly refer to you in any way, shape, or fashion. I don't want to assume anything a second time so just to be clear...

per·son·al adj.

1. Of or relating to a particular person; private: "Like their personal lives, women's history is fragmented, interrupted" (Elizabeth Janeway).
2. a. Done, made, or performed in person: a personal appearance.
b. Done to or for or directed toward a particular person: a personal favor.
3. Concerning a particular person and his or her private business, interests, or activities; intimate: I have something personal to tell you.
4. a. Aimed pointedly at the most intimate aspects of a person, especially in a critical or hostile manner: an uncalled-for, highly personal remark.
b. Tending to make remarks, or be unduly questioning, about another's affairs: As the student debate got heated, it got personal.
5. Of or relating to the body or physical being: personal cleanliness.
6. Relating to or having the nature of a person or self-conscious being: belief in a personal God.
7. Law Relating to a person's movable property: personal possessions.
8. Grammar Indicating grammatical person.

Again, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts in other threads.

Xanthe
04-30-2010, 12:56 AM
Perhaps it would be better for all if this thread was locked....

DoctorOhh
04-30-2010, 01:06 AM
Perhaps it would be better for all if this thread was locked....
:ditto:

HansTWN
04-30-2010, 01:11 AM
Maybe we change the title to "the thread that will not die" or the "Jetbook promotion" thread so that we can finally give it a rest.

akira28
04-30-2010, 01:36 AM
Perhaps it would be better for all if this thread was locked....
:thanks:

akira28
04-30-2010, 01:56 AM
Deleted

akira28
04-30-2010, 01:58 AM
Maybe we change the title to ... "Jetbook promotion" thread

Yeah, but everyone already knows all the hostilities were a only a put-on.:rolleyes:

Snapply
05-01-2010, 02:19 AM
you might as well burn your money if you're getting an lcd ebook reader

DoctorOhh
05-01-2010, 03:02 AM
you might as well burn your money if you're getting an lcd ebook reader

If that's the case I guess I should have burned $200 instead of buying my 2 kids each a jetBook.

I love drive-by posts by people that have something productive to add to the conversation. :rolleyes:

I own an eInk Sony PRS-505 and bought a Non-backlit LCD jetBook for my daughter. I found it to be an inexpensive ($99) perfectly acceptable ereader. So much so I bought my son one too.

Don't get me wrong I prefer my eInk reader because there is less glare then the jetBook screen, but the truth is they are fine ereaders.

LDBoblo
05-02-2010, 05:12 AM
I wonder how much development of reflective LCD is still going on. I would love to see some next generation stuff coming out. Lots of epaper on the way to production and to market, but other than ChLCD, we don't hear much about LCD on that front.

GhostHawk
05-02-2010, 09:35 AM
You @!#$#^%$^& !#@$^%&&*( you woke it up again!

astra
05-02-2010, 01:51 PM
I wonder how much development of reflective LCD is still going on. I would love to see some next generation stuff coming out. Lots of epaper on the way to production and to market, but other than ChLCD, we don't hear much about LCD on that front.

Beware, akira28 is watching you!

ardeegee
05-02-2010, 03:31 PM
If that's the case I guess I should have burned $200 instead of buying my 2 kids each a jetBook.


Are you using rechargeable batteries? If not, I'd think you would quickly burn through the extra 50 bucks each you'd have paid for a pair of PRS300s buying batteries.

DoctorOhh
05-02-2010, 09:40 PM
Are you using rechargeable batteries? If not, I'd think you would quickly burn through the extra 50 bucks each you'd have paid for a pair of PRS300s buying batteries.

An excellent point, rechargeable batteries work fine in these readers and yes I am using them.

akira28
05-02-2010, 09:51 PM
I wonder how much development of reflective LCD is still going on. I would love to see some next generation stuff coming out. Lots of epaper on the way to production and to market, but other than ChLCD, we don't hear much about LCD on that front.

Sharp had some impressive looking reflective displays last June, both monochrome and color. Sadly we have not yet seen these come to market in the form of an ereader.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20090605/171330/

grumbles
05-03-2010, 01:17 PM
Well... I have a Sony PRS-505, PRS-300 and an Aluratech Libre. All are quite legible but I prefer the e-ink to the lcd.

The lcd suffers from the problems all lcd displays have. To get maximum contrast I have to view the screen at an angle. If I look at it straight on, the contrast is no better than e-ink.

The lcd has a slight greenish-yellow cast to it in contrast to the neutral very light gray of e-ink.

Battery life is longer for e-ink but that just means that I have to charge the Libre more often.

LCD displays update faster but e-ink isn't really any slower than I turn the page in a book so I don't see that as an issue.

I have no issue with reading on either an lcd of any type or e-ink. I spend up to 12 hours a day with a computer (22-24" screen) with no problems. All that is required is to set the contrast and brightness correctly. And the correct strength of reading glasses for the conditions.

Resolution is very important (in terms of pixels per unit length). The 5" lcd has about the same resolution as the 6" e-ink. The 5" e-ink display is much better and appears sharper.

That said, I prefer e-ink for reading, colour would be nice.

There are other factors as well. The "fit and finish" of the Sony readers is far better than the Libre. The Libre feels cheap and shoddy. I expect the poorly designed cover for the memory and usb connections to break and fall off no matter how careful I am.

If (when) I get a new reader, the display is only a small part of the criteria I will use to choose with. But my preference, all esle being equal, would be for e-ink.

Note: LCD display do NOT have a refresh rate. The refresh rate only refers to the number of times an electron beam draws the screen on a CRT. This parameter has no meaning for the lcd display.

cheers
the grumbling curmudgeon

LDBoblo
05-03-2010, 04:10 PM
Note: LCD display do NOT have a refresh rate. The refresh rate only refers to the number of times an electron beam draws the screen on a CRT. This parameter has no meaning for the lcd display.
LCDs are indeed actively refreshed/redrawn. To claim otherwise is silly semantics.

grumbles
05-03-2010, 06:07 PM
LCDs are indeed actively refreshed/redrawn. To claim otherwise is silly semantics.

Yes they are but this has nothing to do with the refresh rate that is set in the video driver. It is not silly semantics.

If you decrease the refresh rate with a CRT, you will start to notice a distinct flicker on the screen, first in your peripheral vision (most sensitive to movement) and then in your central vision. This is a physical change in the nature of the display.

With an LCD the intervals between screen updates will lengthen as the refresh rate drops but there will be no screen flicker as the result of the drop in refresh rate. The screen will look the same.

Since the display has to convert the vga signal to whatever internal format the display uses, there is probably a maximum frame rate that the display can handle. Exceeding this rate may result in missing information but it will not change the naure of the display and certainly not introduce flickering like reducing the refresh rate on a CRT.

If someone has trouble reading lcd dispalys, the refresh rate has nothing to do with it.

cheers
the grumbling curmudgeon

Magnesus
05-05-2010, 06:32 AM
Sharp had some impressive looking reflective displays last June, both monochrome and color. Sadly we have not yet seen these come to market in the form of an ereader.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20090605/171330/

And don't forget about Pixel Qi.