When the Kobo reader was announced, they had a local number as their press contact so I was able to go in today for an interview. I got a loaner unit of their new device and had a very interesting two-hour-long conversation with Michael, the head of Kobo. It was so nice to chat with someone who knows his stuff and had real power with the publishers!

We talked about a ton of stuff. I will be doing a big write-up for Teleread in the next few days. But there were two points I wanted to share right away:

1) Their goal is pretty much word ebook domination, with software for every device available in any market everywhere, and content from the major publishers plus local ones wherever they can get deals. They are therefore much more customer service oriented than some other retailers I ave dealt with *cough* fictionwise *cough*

2) He told me to expect it to take 'a couple months' for the agency mess to sort itself out, but not to panic. He said they have already received numerous emails from content partners with price changes just in the last few days---in other words, requests to lower a price. The publishers are basically lemmings who see what the other ones are doing, freak out that they are not doing it, and copy. So some prices have already come down, and Random House was never really in it in the first place. It will take time to sort out, but he thinks it *will* sort out and said that publishers are already friendlier to him than they were last year and are starting to recognize that e-stuff if the future. There is no conspiracy to sabotage the e-market. They just have no idea what they're doing.

Great meeting, super-nice guy. I'll have more later.

There's an interview with Michael Serbinis in the National Post, published on Beethoven's most recent birthday (Dec 16), marking the occasion of the CEO's very first press interview, here: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/afterword/archive/2009/12/16/michael-serbinis-ceo-of-kobo-quot-it-s-just-the-beginning-of-what-s-to-come-quot.aspx

It will be interesting to see how aspirations in Dec pan out in May.

Looking forward to your thoughts on the Kobo reader!

So how is Kobo's reader?

Well, I only have a demo unit so not all the features are implemented yet. It's very sleek, very light and small, very pretty. I think it will be a great entry-level reader for someone who doesn't care about fancy features like text to speech or dictionaries and just wants to read books. I think wifi would have been a better choice over bluetooth, and I am still playing around with the options. We'll see :)

Any word on when they're going to let us use Chapters gift cards to pay for ebooks bought on Kobo? That would be REALLY smart. :) It would also be rather wise considering that Chapters stores will be selling the Kobo unit. If someone was buying one as a gift wouldn't the perfect addon be a Chapters gift card?

To me, Kobo is trying for world domination by using a closed environment with their own ebook format. For example, if I have a DRM-free ePub (say from Baen) how do I get to read it using the Kobo app on (say) an Android phone? So far as I can tell, Kobo mobile apps do not use ePub and can't import non-Kobo ebooks.

I can buy a Kobe ebook and download it as an Adobe ePub, but at that piont I am better off using a non-Kobo ebook device because I won't be fooled into thinking that they have a homogeneous environment across all the devices they support. Amazon does have a homogeneous environment, e.g. syncing and bookmarks works across all devices and apps. I can also use Calibre to produce a "Kindle" ebook (i.e. a MOBI), I can't use Calibre to produce a "Kobo" ebook because its format isn't even documented.

If Kobo is interested in dominating the market then they should add a lot more publishers. I mostly buy from small independent publishers and I find Kobo's selection of books lacking.

Shopaholic- I asked about that and they said that is underway, and not only that, but those will not be the only gift cards they accept. For example if they are selling at Borders in the US, they may accept Borders gift cards too.

Wallcraft- I don't know about phones, but on this device, you CAN load any book you want. There is a Kobo desktop app which came on the device which is not working yet (I only have a test unit and it has not been fully implemented). But drag and drop, I could load any epub I wanted. I am having trouble zooming on some of them, not sure why. But the ones from Mobile Read look great.

Kobo seems way more clueful than just about all of the other retailers so far. They've come a long way; I wasn't impressed with my initial trial of Shortcovers about a year ago, but I think their store is great now. The books work great on my Pre and my EZReader.

To me, Kobo is trying for world domination by using a closed environment with their own ebook format. For example, if I have a DRM-free ePub (say from Baen) how do I get to read it using the Kobo app on (say) an Android phone? So far as I can tell, Kobo mobile apps do not use ePub and can't import non-Kobo ebooks.

I just use another app to read non-Kobo books on my Pre (pReader works pretty well). I realize that's not an ideal solution for everyone.

You do have to be careful; not all books are available for ePub download, so they would only be available on the phone or PC/web. They seem to be mostly public domain things that are available elsewhere, anyway.

I can buy a Kobe ebook and download it as an Adobe ePub, but at that piont I am better off using a non-Kobo ebook device because I won't be fooled into thinking that they have a homogeneous environment across all the devices they support. Amazon does have a homogeneous environment, e.g. syncing and bookmarks works across all devices and apps. I can also use Calibre to produce a "Kindle" ebook (i.e. a MOBI), I can't use Calibre to produce a "Kobo" ebook because its format isn't even documented.

I left a question for ficbot in the Koboreader thread--can the Bluetooth sync be used to sync the bookmarks etc.?

1) Their goal is pretty much world ebook domination, with software for every device available in any market everywhere, and content from the major publishers plus local ones wherever they can get deals. They are therefore much more customer service oriented than some other retailers I ave dealt with *cough* fictionwise *cough*

Are they planning on ever carrying non-DRM'd ebooks? (I suppose probably not; they'd have to explain the differences, and they don't seem to be set up to do that. As it is, they don't clearly state what format the "mobile" files are.)

2) He told me to expect it to take 'a couple months' for the agency mess to sort itself out, but not to panic. He said they have already received numerous emails from content partners with price changes just in the last few days---in other words, requests to lower a price. The publishers are basically lemmings who see what the other ones are doing, freak out that they are not doing it, and copy.

And I expect that to be *endless* fun to watch. Like a multi-line trainwreck. Because publishers really don't have the business mechanisms set up to watch the day-to-day market and take advantage of small shifts in public preferences, so they're going to be playing catch-up with each others' promotions and bargains.

I am very much looking forward to the opportunity for small publishers to jump heavily into the ebook market with $5-10 non-DRM'd ebooks and the ability to say, "we'll work with you to make sure this is readable on your device, whatever that is!" Small publishers are flexible enough to assign people to ebook customer service; big publishers are still trying to treat them like pbooks: if you've got a problem, go back to the store that sold it to you and deal with their refund policy.

There is no conspiracy to sabotage the e-market. They just have no idea what they're doing.

I don't think there's a conscious conspiracy, but there are attempts to keep the current/previous publishing model (complete with the ~50% returned book rates) as long as possible, and treat ebooks as an entirely *additional* revenue source, unrelated to previous markets. They don't want to allow ebooks to affect print sales, and they don't know how to prevent it other than keeping the prices high enough that nobody chooses ebook over print because of price.

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As it is, they don't clearly state what format the "mobile" files are.
"Mobile" files are ones that you can only download directly via the application on your iPhone, etc.; they're not a file that you can download on your computer and sideload to your device.

But if you buy the 'mobile' book on your mobile, you can then go to the website at home and download the epub.

But if you buy the 'mobile' book on your mobile, you can then go to the website at home and download the epub.
If it's a book with an ePub. Most have them, but not all. (For example, about half of Ian Douglas's books are web/mobile-only.)

I have read a few epub Kobo books on my Sony reader and they looked great. I guess it must use the same DRM as I had no issues loading and viewing it. Do you know if the Kobo reader can sort books through collections? I watched a video in another thread but it looked like it was only sorting by title, author. or last read. This would be an important feature for me.

No collections yet, but I mentioned this and he was already nodding his head :) I think the are focusing on an initial roll-out first and then they will go back and fine-tune.

Any word yet on the incorrect MSRP that causes the end price to be too high?

I bought two Christopher Moore books from them last week in Canadian $ and the CAD price was cheaper then the US one even with the tax. Everything is in a mess right now, but I will just keep moving with the company's who offer the books at the best price. Yes it takes time to shift them to normal formats but in the end it's worth it.

Any word yet on the incorrect MSRP that causes the end price to be too high?

Only that they are making changes as adjustments come in from the publisher, that it will take a few months for everything to straighten out because this is a big change, and to just be patient and don't panic :)

Only that they are making changes as adjustments come in from the publisher, that it will take a few months for everything to straighten out because this is a big change, and to just be patient and don't panic :)
That might fly for stuff that's wrong everywhere, but their flat 9%/10% surcharges on Harpercollins/S&S titles compared to stores located in the US isn't something that should take "a few months" to straighten out!

That might fly for stuff that's wrong everywhere, but their flat 9%/10% surcharges on Harpercollins/S&S titles compared to stores located in the US isn't something that should take "a few months" to straighten out!

I agree. The agency pricing is supposed to mean that the prices will be the same at all stores. They are not because Kobo is in the wrong here.

And speaking of Kobo, the Kobo app for the iPad... how do we get our own content on the iPad to use with the Kobo app other then downloading bought ePub via Kobo's store? Does it support embedded fonts?

Are there any plans to make the firmware itself available? If the Kobo-Reader is an EB600, it should be possible to use their software (which apparently is better than others) on other EB600s ?

[QUOTE=ficbot;858850] ...I will be doing a big write-up for Teleread in the next few days. But there were two points I wanted to share right away:

Did you ever do that write up?

Yes (http://www.teleread.org/2010/04/07/joanna-interviews-kobo-ceo-michael-serbinis/comment-page-1/). And more coming once I send the reader back to them.

Only that they are making changes as adjustments come in from the publisher, that it will take a few months for everything to straighten out because this is a big change, and to just be patient and don't panic :)

I'm a patient guy ... really ... but "it will take a few months for everything to straighten out"? And blindly overpay in the meantime? Or accept that thousands of titles are in limbo because ... ooopsie! IT is sorting it ... ? I may be dead in November by the time they figure out it's ok for me to buy Ian Rankin in Toronto.

BTW ... will I be able to walk into Chapters, plunk down CDN$150 on the counter, and walk out with a KoboReader during my birthday month ... of May?

No collections yet, but I mentioned this and he was already nodding his head :) I think the are focusing on an initial roll-out first and then they will go back and fine-tune.

hmmmmmmm so it is possible for something like this to get added in later eh. I am very close to just going for it with this unit. The 6 inch display for cheap, and man its a slick looking unit.

edit. Did he mention anything about being able to use chapters/indigo gift cards in the future with the kobo store? or coupons?

Here's a very positive review of the kobo reader

http://www.electronista.com/reviews/kobo-ereader.html

My review is up at Teleread now too.

My review is up at Teleread now too.

Thanks for posting that review. Based on it (and a couple of other reviews I've read) I opted to pull the trigger and pre-order one for my wife.

Has Kobo sorted out the Agency prices yet?

My review is up at Teleread now too.

Great review! Thanks! The level of detail is very helpful.

I've also signed up for the beta testing on the additional device testing such as Blackberry.

I will be waiting till I can see a device live ....

here's the first video I have found of the Kobo in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK9Sx_8OkUg

looks real nice. The lag that has been mentioned with page turning etc doesnt seem bad (although I have literally never seen an ereader before so maybe someone can compare and let me know how it stacks up). The changing fonts had some lag but that makes sense to me since it has to recalculate pages and such. Overall just looks like a real nice basic cheap 6" reader.

I would order one now but having seen that black version I think I may want a black one instead of the white! Although the white one looks real nice as well.... hmmmm decisions decisions

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Thanks for posting that. At this price point I think this one might be my first e-ink device.

I like using the up and down button to change font size. It seems as fast as any other eInk reader I've used.

The shipping on the reader to the US is very reasonable ($9.90), along with the price of the reader so I went ahead and preordered one. Hopefully, it will not be a disappointment like the eSlick which I still can't update since it requires a 32 bit version of Windows.

What sold me was the price and Adobe Adept support along with having two fonts and changing font size with the navigation button. Hopefully, it can be made to work with Calibre.

Does anybody know what sort of taxes might be levied on the Kobo if I pre-order it from Canada and ship to the US (California).
I know buying electronics online from a US store and having them shipped to Canada can cost hundreds because of duties, taxes and customs.

Otherwise, I would be ready to pull the trigger right now on that device!

Does anybody know what sort of taxes might be levied on the Kobo if I pre-order it from Canada and ship to the US (California).
I know buying electronics online from a US store and having them shipped to Canada can cost hundreds because of duties, taxes and customs.

Otherwise, I would be ready to pull the trigger right now on that device!

Here I was, thinking that people in the US would be excited about a $150 ereader. I guess not.

Here I was, thinking that people in the US would be excited about a $150 ereader. I guess not.
Or maybe, just maybe, they don't know the ins and outs of importing/exporting electronics?

It will be for sale in Borders in the US in May. Retail.

Anyone know when pre-orders will be shipped to Canada?

I don't expect to have to pay much if any customs on the Kobo reader. I do a lot of shipping from the US to all over the world and for small ticket items customs duties/taxes tend to be low if there are any at all.

The shipping was less than $10 US so I bet it will shipped via the post office and I've never had to pay customs on any item shipped that way. The only time I had to pay customs was on some expensive musical instruments ($2K +) shipped from Europe via UPS and that was less than 10% of the value.

It will be for sale in Borders in the US in May. Retail.

Where did you hear/read that? That would be AWESOME!
Most reports I saw say LATE summer 2010 ... which, considering it will be out in Canada in 1 week, is pretty ridiculous. I only am considering ordering one from Canada because I again want an ebook reader in that price range (got a refurb Kindle 1 before, which was stolen :()

I don't expect to have to pay much if any customs on the Kobo reader. I do a lot of shipping from the US to all over the world and for small ticket items customs duties/taxes tend to be low if there are any at all.

The shipping was less than $10 US so I bet it will shipped via the post office and I've never had to pay customs on any item shipped that way. The only time I had to pay customs was on some expensive musical instruments ($2K +) shipped from Europe via UPS and that was less than 10% of the value.

That's what I would hope ... but there are horror stories of people ordering electronics from the US (shipping to Canada) who got hit with a $90 customs brokerage fee, etc. I would like to know whether this might also apply the other way around (which would totally kill the appeal of the Kobo).

I don't expect to have to pay much if any customs on the Kobo reader. I do a lot of shipping from the US to all over the world and for small ticket items customs duties/taxes tend to be low if there are any at all.

The shipping was less than $10 US so I bet it will shipped via the post office and I've never had to pay customs on any item shipped that way. The only time I had to pay customs was on some expensive musical instruments ($2K +) shipped from Europe via UPS and that was less than 10% of the value.


I'm afraid not. Canadians have an import limit of $20 Canadian. Anything over and above that is subject to federal taxes (GST), provincial taxes (PST) which vary from province to province and duty depending on where the item being imported is made. If goods are sent through the postal system it's hit and miss as to whether or not they get assessed taxes. With millions of packages being mailed they can't inspect and collect on all of them. If the goods are sent by courier, which this likely would be, then you are guaranteed to get hit with taxes AND brokerage charges from the courier. Couriers sometimes collect before handing over the goods or they'll leave you the goods and send you a bill in the mail.

Brokerage costs are what courier companies charge for the priviledge of clearing your item through customs from one country to another. They're always expensive even for low dollar value items.

If the Kobo reader is being sent to Canadians from inside Canada, then none of the above applies. If it's coming from the US or directly from China or wherever it's been made then the above will apply.

Americans have an import limit of $200 US before their packages are assessed taxes and duty.

I sell stuff on eBay and bring it over the border myself to mail inside the US. I also import items into Canada for resale. I've gotten pretty good at this import/export, customs, tarrif codes and stuff over the years. :)

I heard it from the guys at Kobo themselves. Canada end of April at Indigo, Borders in US in May, Red Group stores in Aus/NZ/Singapore in May or June, and elsewhere to follow.

I'm afraid not. Canadians have an import limit of $20 Canadian. Anything over and above that is subject to federal taxes (GST), provincial taxes (PST) which vary from province to province and duty depending on where the item being imported is made. If goods are sent through the postal system it's hit and miss as to whether or not they get assessed taxes. With millions of packages being mailed they can't inspect and collect on all of them. If the goods are sent by courier, which this likely would be, then you are guaranteed to get hit with taxes AND brokerage charges from the courier. Couriers sometimes collect before handing over the goods or they'll leave you the goods and send you a bill in the mail.

Brokerage costs are what courier companies charge for the priviledge of clearing your item through customs from one country to another. They're always expensive even for low dollar value items.

If the Kobo reader is being sent to Canadians from inside Canada, then none of the above applies. If it's coming from the US or directly from China or wherever it's been made then the above will apply.

Americans have an import limit of $200 US before their packages are assessed taxes and duty.

I sell stuff on eBay and bring it over the border myself to mail inside the US. I also import items into Canada for resale. I've gotten pretty good at this import/export, customs, tarrif codes and stuff over the years. :)

Guess my customers have been lucky but the only item I shipped to Canada in 10 years that was taxed was an $$$ guitar and that was sent FedEx.

If the Kobo couriers my reader for $9.90 I'll be surprised. It's only a $149 item. I bet they stick it in the mail.

I heard it from the guys at Kobo themselves. Canada end of April at Indigo, Borders in US in May, Red Group stores in Aus/NZ/Singapore in May or June, and elsewhere to follow.

That's great news! I can wait a little bit longer. Curious though that Indigo has a pre-order page and Borders hasn't said or announced anything on their website.

I'm afraid not. Canadians have an import limit of $20 Canadian. Anything over and above that is subject to federal taxes (GST), provincial taxes (PST) which vary from province to province and duty depending on where the item being imported is made. If goods are sent through the postal system it's hit and miss as to whether or not they get assessed taxes. With millions of packages being mailed they can't inspect and collect on all of them. If the goods are sent by courier, which this likely would be, then you are guaranteed to get hit with taxes AND brokerage charges from the courier. Couriers sometimes collect before handing over the goods or they'll leave you the goods and send you a bill in the mail.

Brokerage costs are what courier companies charge for the priviledge of clearing your item through customs from one country to another. They're always expensive even for low dollar value items.

If the Kobo reader is being sent to Canadians from inside Canada, then none of the above applies. If it's coming from the US or directly from China or wherever it's been made then the above will apply.

Americans have an import limit of $200 US before their packages are assessed taxes and duty.

I sell stuff on eBay and bring it over the border myself to mail inside the US. I also import items into Canada for resale. I've gotten pretty good at this import/export, customs, tarrif codes and stuff over the years. :)

Thank you for the information. The Kobo is shipped from Canada (AFAIK) to the US.

Well I put in an order for a Kobo yesterday. I wanted the black version but theres no set release date for that one and I can't wait!

Seems to be a whack of misinformation in the last several posts about "import taxes" etc for bringing things by mail / courier into Canada. You pay regular taxes: you pay that if you buy across the street here, too. You paying a delivery fee (duhhh!) unless the vendor is swallowing those costs / hiding them somewhere else. There may be a "handling fee" added by the courier -- Canada Post charges $5 for "customs clearance"; certain courier companies charge usurious rates for one-off customers -- I've seen $30 and more. Bust actual "taxes" that are associated with bringing stuff across the border: many, many goods are "zero rated" including almost everything from the US.

Anyway ...

There are two articles about the imminent launch of the Kobo in today's National Post:

Q&A with Heather Reisman
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=2944756

and

Call It An ehReader
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=2945820

If you're interested in the device, they're both worth a quick read.

Seems to be a whack of misinformation in the last several posts about "import taxes" etc for bringing things by mail / courier into Canada. You pay regular taxes: you pay that if you buy across the street here, too. You paying a delivery fee (duhhh!) unless the vendor is swallowing those costs / hiding them somewhere else. There may be a "handling fee" added by the courier -- Canada Post charges $5 for "customs clearance"; certain courier companies charge usurious rates for one-off customers -- I've seen $30 and more. Bust actual "taxes" that are associated with bringing stuff across the border: many, many goods are "zero rated" including almost everything from the US.


Not to argue with you or anything but I did not post any misinformation. Actually, you have some information wrong. I said essentially that regarding the taxes (GST & PST) except that what you call a handling fee is actually called Brokerage Fees. Brokering is the process of clearing an item through customs when being imported from another country. Couriers - UPS, Fedex, DHL, etc - always charge brokerage fees unless the shipping service selected includes it, most don't. That's a service that they charge for and where they make a lot of money. There are lots of complaints about that online from Canadians.

Duty is based on where the product being imported is made not where it comes from, where it's made. Just because it comes from the US doesn't mean anything. It has to be made in the US to be duty free not just shipped from there. The Kobo is not made in the US.

Here's a 2007 Toronto Star article on the subject. It's a few years old but the same pretty much still appies.

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/281890

"Duties can range from zero to more than 18 per cent, depending on the product and where it's made, according to the Canada Border Services Agency, the federal agency responsible for assessing duties."

"Importing goods into Canada requires the payment of duties and taxes. These fees include PST, GST, duties and other taxes on goods (e.g. excise tax)," UPS Canada said in an email. "UPS Customs Brokerage rates and provides payment to Canada Customs for these fees to expedite clearance at the border on behalf of its importers," UPS says. "UPS provides a charge for this service."

Not to argue with you or anything but I did not post any misinformation.

...

Duty is based on where the product being imported is made not where it comes from, where it's made. Just because it comes from the US doesn't mean anything. It has to be made in the US to be duty free not just shipped from there. The Kobo is not made in the US.

I wasn't singling you out. The point is, any duty and tariffs paid as a single importer are the same as paid buying it across the street. There's nothing "extra" with the exception of handing and shipping fees. Also, in practice, if it's brought in from the US and made in China, the tariff applies as if it came from the US. Practically everything is made in China or its neighbours and tariffs for electronic goods are zero. Some folks worry about getting hit with "high duty and taxes"; they do not ... they get hit with the identical taxes you pay locally.

Did you find the two article about the Kobo, which is the point of this thread, interesting or helpful?

I wasn't singling you out. The point is, any duty and tariffs paid as a single importer are the same as paid buying it across the street. There's nothing "extra" with the exception of handing and shipping fees. Also, in practice, if it's brought in from the US and made in China, the tariff applies as if it came from the US. Practically everything is made in China or its neighbours and tariffs for electronic goods are zero. Some folks worry about getting hit with "high duty and taxes"; they do not ... they get hit with the identical taxes you pay locally.

Did you find the two article about the Kobo, which is the point of this thread, interesting or helpful?


Sorry but your information is incorrect. The taxes you pay on import are what you pay if you bought it at your local store, yes. Duties are extra over and above taxes and depend on the item and where it's made. Brokerage is something else altogether.

Tariffs apply depending on where the item is made NOT where it comes from as you've stated. I've been importing and exporting for my own business for the last 10 years. I've done it myself for the last 8. Prior to that I paid someone to do the paperwork. Prior to that, I did it as part of my job for a manufacturing company. I buy goods from US companies that are made in China, Indonesia and the Phillippines. I pick them up in the US and when I import them into Canada I am charged duty based on the country the goods are made in. More commonly referred to as country of origin.

Yes the point of the thread is the Kobo reader but you're giving out very wrong information when it comes to importing it and it needed to be corrected. I know of what I speak. I've been doing it for a long time, almost 20 years in all. Sorry for the intrusion.

Here is a Kobo eReader video review.

imjZjUEObOI

Sorry but your information is incorrect. The taxes you pay on import are what you pay if you bought it at your local store, yes. Duties are extra over and above taxes and depend on the item and where it's made. Brokerage is something else altogether.

I apologize. I am not making myself clear.

Yes, for commercial shipments, origin of manufacture, not origin of shipment, is the key driver. Computers, cell phones and similar devices are zero-rated items for duty from the US, China and many other places. That's why the "duty" some folks are fussing about is irrelevant. You are paying the same duty (in this case $0) if you purchase it in a local store -- you just don't see it because it's embedded in the sticker price.

For one-off imports, the brokerage fee is the distinguishing charge that matters, depending on the shipping method. Folks buying Google Nexus One phones, as example, bought from the Google US website but made by HTC in Asia, are imported into Canada duty free. E-readers, like the Kobo, would follow the same model.

Of course, we're buying Kobos from a local source so none of this discussion of duty matters. These policies do kick in buying things like Android tablets direct from Hong Kong on ebay. But again, this class of goods are in the duty free category.

Here is a Kobo eReader video review.

I notice the text is left justified. One of the things i like about the Kindle 2 is that everything is full justified. I'm not sold on the blue plastic button. What were they thinking? Could that be any uglier?

However my sense of curiosity is quite aroused and I expect I will pop into my local Chapters/Indigo late next week to play with one. It may be worth the $169.49 (my local taxes included) to be the first kid on the block to own one. ;)

This could be a good addition to my Kindle. Less screwing around with Public Library books. The MobiPocket Public Library books are only a minor inconvenience to get on my Kindle.

The ONLY feature mentioned that I would miss is the word look up. I have changed the dictionary on my Kindle to be a purchased Spanish-English translation dictionary.

I may wait for introduction into the US market. But, a 2 hour drive to Vancouver is tempting.

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