View Full Version : Privacy - Is it just me?


TGS
03-22-2010, 06:31 AM
Is it just me or is there a serious question about why would anyone buy a device which entails agreeing to allow the seller to do this?
The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device and other information you provide may be stored on servers in the United States. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.

I dare say this is not the worst example of privacy infringement, but whatever the other advantages of Amazon devices might be, this just stopped me buying one.

mr ploppy
03-22-2010, 08:46 AM
I lost interest in Kindles when I found out they could remotely delete books from your device at any time they want to.

Tamara
03-22-2010, 09:01 AM
It sounds like a lot of that paragraph is aimed at people who may have a kindle plus the Kindle app on other devices so they can keep everything synced up.

Sparrow
03-22-2010, 09:29 AM
The use of the phrase 'such as' would give me pause - they're only giving you part of the picture.

Kali Yuga
03-22-2010, 09:59 AM
Is it just me or is there a serious question about why would anyone buy a device which entails agreeing to allow the seller to do this?
If that is your concern, you might want to move to a shack in Montana and go off the grid. ;) Or at least buy your paper books with cash and get rid of your cell phone. (http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2009/12/sprint-fed-customer-gps-data-to-leos-over-8-million-times.ars)

Online retailers can track your every last move on their sites -- purchase history, what books you browsed on their site, if you came from a specific link. It's not like buying from Sony, B&N or Fictionwise really gives you that much more privacy protection.

For example, let's say I get accused of terrorism. The Feds will pore over every possession I own, paper and digital. If I'm taking notes in the margins of a paper book or in an ebook, they're going to get it. Or if I have a paper copy of The Anarchist's Cookbook that I picked up as a lark when I was in college, it will undoubtedly be introduced in court -- no matter how much dust it has gathered.

I don't see a problem with inquiring about it, but I really don't see anything useful Amazon can do with data that gets synced via Whispernet than via purchase history, or how it's really much worse than what any other ebook vendor can access or generate. Ergo, I don't see much reason for concern, especially in the era of voluntary surrendering of tons of data on Facebook and Foursquare....

CyGuy
03-22-2010, 10:12 AM
I lost interest in Kindles when I found out they could remotely delete books from your device at any time they want to.

I agree completely with this statement. As soon as I heard about this, the Kindle became a no-sale for me.

Mike L
03-22-2010, 10:40 AM
Aren't you all missing the obvious answer: Keep Whispernet switched off.

abookreader
03-22-2010, 12:20 PM
Don't want to fight --- but I'm wondering how this compares to the user agreements with any other device with 3G or wireless access.

Or even the non-wireless access companies where you are purchasing and downloading via a computer. What kind of "rights" do those companies have to peer onto your hard drive?

MovieBird
03-22-2010, 01:10 PM
If that is your concern, you might want to move to a shack in Montana and go off the grid. ;) Or at least buy your paper books with cash and get rid of your cell phone. (http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2009/12/sprint-fed-customer-gps-data-to-leos-over-8-million-times.ars)

:offtopic: but the dating game pretty much requires a cell phone these days. I'm not a fan of being tracked everywhere, but as has been proven throughout history, guys will do anything for a pretty girl.

TGS
03-22-2010, 01:13 PM
If that is your concern, you might want to move to a shack in Montana and go off the grid.
Would love to move to Montana and live in a shack, (and raise me up a crop of dental floss, perhaps), but am unlikely to get a Green Card for shack living or dental floss growing :)

As someone said on an earlier thread - which I would have known about had I bothered to look - it's not (or not only), about them knowing about what I've browsed and bought, but it's about them knowing about what I've done with it after I've bought it that seems more intrusive than the background snooping that we all seem to have got used to.

gastan
03-22-2010, 01:28 PM
Amazon's ability, and unabashed willingness to use that ability, to remotely control your device put the Kindle in the trash heap for me, also.

Maybe I'm just a paranoid old fart, but I don't think young people realize just how important your privacy is. If they did they wouldn't be so eager to spill their life's secrets all over the internet on FaceBook, MySpace, Twitter, etc.. Whenever this subject comes up with younger people, they seem astounded that anyone even worries about stuff like this. They don't seem to understand that once something is voluntarily given away you usually have to fight to get it back -- if getting it back is even possible.

I wouldn't even own a car with an OnStar module installed in it. I own an old, pre-GPS enabled phone and pray daily that it doens't wonk out on me. Perhaps "they" already have myriads of information on me but I don't have to voluntarily give them more or make it easier for them.

CyGuy
03-22-2010, 01:55 PM
I wouldn't even own a car with an OnStar module installed in it.

I must agree with you on this one. Have you seen the commercial where they are able to remotely disable the vehicle? I would walk everywhere before I would own a vehicle with that "feature".

Nakor
03-22-2010, 02:08 PM
Aren't you all missing the obvious answer: Keep Whispernet switched off.

Which would work, but a lot of people buy a Kindle because of Whispernet. Takes a chunk out of the value when you plan to not use it.

Tamara
03-22-2010, 02:13 PM
I must agree with you on this one. Have you seen the commercial where they are able to remotely disable the vehicle? I would walk everywhere before I would own a vehicle with that "feature".

I actually like that feature. You report your car stolen and not only can you find out where it is, it's also disabled so the thief can't use it either.

HarryT
03-22-2010, 02:30 PM
The reason for all this data storage, in case it's escaped anyone's notice, is so that information can be shared and synced between different devices. So if you're reading a book on your Kindle, and then you carry on reading the same book with the Kindle app on an iPhone, you'll automatically start reading at the page you left off at on the Kindle, you'll have all your annotations, etc.

K-Thom
03-22-2010, 02:43 PM
I dare say this is not the worst example of privacy infringement, but whatever the other advantages of Amazon devices might be, this just stopped me buying one.

Well, this means you won't ever buy any device with built-in or linked online store. Because that's the way they have to work.

And Amazon states cleary "may be stored", not "may be used or altered or deleted".

What are you afraid of, actually? Which would be fine with me. It's your sentiment. Just curious.

TGS
03-22-2010, 03:16 PM
Well, this means you won't ever buy any device with built-in or linked online store. Because that's the way they have to work.

Is it? Or are we simply accepting that, because this is the way it is designed to work, this is the way it has to work?

And Amazon states cleary "may be stored", not "may be used or altered or deleted".

What are you afraid of, actually? Which would be fine with me. It's your sentiment. Just curious.

I'm not sure I'm "afraid" of anything, but what I am uncomfortable with is the idea that, as a condition of buying this device I have to give this company the right to do these things. Maybe I want to keep business documents on there for the purposes of reading them away from a computer, maybe I've got legal documents on there, maybe I've got personal information about myself or colleagues on there. There seem to be all sorts of legitimate reasons for not wanting Amazon to be able to access that data. However, there seems to be no way of preventing it - indeed, I am required to agree to allowing it if if I buy the device - if I also use the device for the purpose of downloading and reading books.

DawnFalcon
03-22-2010, 03:22 PM
The reason for all this data storage, in case it's escaped anyone's notice...

Where does it explicitly state that?

Because that's the way they have to work.

Really, a store which has a purchase history of your orders need to know anything at all about the status of content on your device, needs to know about content on the device unrelated to the store and needs to send a record of your location and device status at all times?

This will be news to a lot of device manufacturers.

Ralph Sir Edward
03-22-2010, 03:52 PM
If that is your concern, you might want to move to a shack in Montana and go off the grid. ;) Or at least buy your paper books with cash and get rid of your cell phone. (http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2009/12/sprint-fed-customer-gps-data-to-leos-over-8-million-times.ars)

...




The South Texas brush country is just as empty and is lots warmer.....

Going off the grid is slowly reaching price parity to being on the grid...

Hmm...I wonder if you could get by with prepaid debit cards for online purchases...:chinscratch:

Don't have a cell phone... Waste of money for me. If I did, I'd take the battery out of it unless I planned to use it....

Y'all missed one! Do your downloads at a public wifi hotspot on a cheap, disposable netbook you bought for cash...;)


"The price for freedom is eternal vigilance." Part of that vigilance is not letting everybody and his dog track you whenever they feel like it. Of course, if shiny is more important to you....

Jonas777
03-22-2010, 04:46 PM
I actually like that feature. You report your car stolen and not only can you find out where it is, it's also disabled so the thief can't use it either.

It also allowes disgruntled employees some fun: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Disgruntled-Employee-Disabled-Over-100-Cars-via-Web-System-137854.shtml :smack:

Ralph Sir Edward
03-22-2010, 04:51 PM
It also allowes disgruntled employees some fun: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Disgruntled-Employee-Disabled-Over-100-Cars-via-Web-System-137854.shtml :smack:

One of the many reasons I'm not so trusting....

Kali Yuga
03-22-2010, 06:03 PM
Is it? Or are we simply accepting that, because this is the way it is designed to work, this is the way it has to work?
a) Young whippersnappers these days have different standards for privacy. They're much more willing to share private info, so they are less likely to have concerns.
b) It's a trade-off in exchange for the ability to sync your ebook data to multiple devices.
c) Although I have no doubt that Amazon engages in extensive data mining, I can't imagine they would actually find any useful information in my bookmarks.


Maybe I want to keep business documents on there for the purposes of reading them away from a computer, maybe I've got legal documents on there, maybe I've got personal information about myself or colleagues on there.
a) FYI, Amazon only syncs data about the books you purchase through them. Load your own PDF onto the device, and they will not track or care about it.
b) Keep in mind any work computer, or an email account offered to you by an employer, can be monitored and accessed at any time and for any reason by your employer.
c) Also, lots of data is moving "into the cloud." E.g. Dropbox stores and syncs data to Amazon S3 servers; Google Docs resides on their servers, etc.
d) Oh, and every bit of email you have is sitting on a server somewhere -- and in general an email is about as secure and private as a postcard. So every day, you are likely releasing a ton of private and financial data into the Wild West of the Internets.


There seem to be all sorts of legitimate reasons for not wanting Amazon to be able to access that data. However, there seems to be no way of preventing it - indeed, I am required to agree to allowing it if if I buy the device - if I also use the device for the purpose of downloading and reading books.
This is true, there are legit reasons to be wary and generally speaking you can't prevent it. But there is a trade-off, in that any retailer that allows you to sync notes, last read location etc across multiple devices will essentially demand that same info.

For my part, I see no particular cause for concern. YMMV. But if you're worried about this, I will say you are going to find it harder and harder to deal with an increasingly interconnected world, let alone fill out your census form. :D

vaughnmr
03-22-2010, 06:25 PM
I agree with Kali (now THAT's a big change!), if you have insurance, get medical care, have a bank account or credit card, deal with the government (IRS, driver's license), you are in someone's big database. Amazon is the least of my worries.

DawnFalcon
03-22-2010, 06:57 PM
a) FYI, Amazon only syncs data about the books you purchase through them. Load your own PDF onto the device, and they will not track or care about it.

That is not what the privacy policy says, however.

b) Keep in mind any work computer, or an email account offered to you by an employer, can be monitored and accessed at any time and for any reason by your employer.

Don't assume your local law applies everywhere.

c) Also, lots of data is moving "into the cloud." E.g. Dropbox stores and syncs data to Amazon S3 servers; Google Docs resides on their servers, etc.

And if you use them for sensitive material, you'll get sued when people find you've been doing it, yes.

TGS
03-22-2010, 07:43 PM
Whilst I take the point that everyone's at it anyway (data capture that is!), I'm not sure I follow the argument that a bit more of it doesn't matter. I've only been on MR a month and hadn't seen previous threads on the topic, but having looked a bit further it's interesting that some MR Kindle owners were concerned enough about it to try to write a hack to stop it happening, see this thread (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51371).
I guess it does come down to a trade off - if what Amazon offers in terms of service makes it worth agreeing to them doing all this other stuff (and what this other stuff amounts to seems to be less than certain), then that's fine. For me, when I was looking at the Amazon site with a view to buying a Kindle as a second reader this morning I was brought up short by what I was required to agree to. So, for now, I'll continue to side load stuff on to my unconnected, unsynced European IREX DR800 - and feel, naively, a bit safer for that.

Ralph Sir Edward
03-22-2010, 08:06 PM
Whilst I take the point that everyone's at it anyway (data capture that is!), I'm not sure I follow the argument that a bit more of it doesn't matter. I've only been on MR a month and hadn't seen previous threads on the topic, but having looked a bit further it's interesting that some MR Kindle owners were concerned enough about it to try to write a hack to stop it happening, see this thread (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51371).
I guess it does come down to a trade off - if what Amazon offers in terms of service makes it worth agreeing to them doing all this other stuff (and what this other stuff amounts to seems to be less than certain), then that's fine. For me, when I was looking at the Amazon site with a view to buying a Kindle as a second reader this morning I was brought up short by what I was required to agree to. So, for now, I'll continue to side load stuff on to my unconnected, unsynced European IREX DR800 - and feel, naively, a bit safer for that.


And I keep a BeBook (Hanlin V3) for the same reason...

kindlekitten
03-22-2010, 08:06 PM
y'all have an over inflated sense of self importance if you really believe that Amazon gives a rats left testicle about the content on your Kindle. so what if you have all of Harry Potter on it? how is Amazon to know where it came from? anyone is perfectly legally within their rights to tear up those books and scan them in. do you REALLY think anyone is going to spend time proving otherwise? now if you were doing it and SELLING the scanned copies, yeah, they'd probably get a little pissed and do something about it.

some folks really do qualify for aluminum foil hats! sheesh

Bilbo1967
03-22-2010, 08:18 PM
y'all have an over inflated sense of self importance if you really believe that Amazon gives a rats left testicle about the content on your Kindle. so what if you have all of Harry Potter on it? how is Amazon to know where it came from? anyone is perfectly legally within their rights to tear up those books and scan them in. do you REALLY think anyone is going to spend time proving otherwise? now if you were doing it and SELLING the scanned copies, yeah, they'd probably get a little pissed and do something about it.

some folks really do qualify for aluminum foil hats! sheesh

How, exactly, would Amazon know who was and wasn't selling on copies of illegal books held on their Kindle? Perhaps they'd pass on details of all such people just to be on the safe side?

Besides, "When Freedoms are chiseled away......", or does that only apply to freedoms you agree with?

vaughnmr
03-22-2010, 08:21 PM
Sometimes I wonder if these people aren't being paid to say things like this about Amazon. Look at how many other ereaders that either have or will have 3g connections, and will be doing the same thing (Apple, for one). And if you really want to get paranoid, go read the "Terms and Conditions" from just about anything else. People, get a life!

gastan
03-22-2010, 08:26 PM
It also allowes disgruntled employees some fun:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Disgruntled-Employee-Disabled-Over-100-Cars-via-Web-System-137854.shtml :smack:

Any system that is open to being abused will one day be abused, whether it's by your boss, your politicians, or merely your disgruntled boyfriend/girlfriend. People need to remember that and act accordingly. My response is to try and give them as little as I can and to fight any erosion of individual rights however I can.


For my part, I see no particular cause for concern. YMMV. But if you're worried about this, I will say you are going to find it harder and harder to deal with an increasingly interconnected world, let alone fill out your census form. :D

Your reasoning seems to be that there is already a ton of info "out there" so we may as well just give up and let them have the rest. Forget privacy? Forget (for U.S. residents) the 4th and 5th amendments? Forget the 1st amendment? (it won't mean a thing to have "free speech" if people become afraid to use it when everything is stored "in the cloud")

You (and others) see no cause for concern? There are legions of historical examples to prove you wrong. Your attitudes of It Can't Happen Here will serve the next purveyors of dystopia very well. I suspect you were a mere babe in 1984 so welcome to the Brave New World.

TGS
03-22-2010, 08:27 PM
y'all have an over inflated sense of self importance if you really believe that Amazon gives a rats left testicle about the content on your Kindle. so what if you have all of Harry Potter on it? how is Amazon to know where it came from? anyone is perfectly legally within their rights to tear up those books and scan them in. do you REALLY think anyone is going to spend time proving otherwise? now if you were doing it and SELLING the scanned copies, yeah, they'd probably get a little pissed and do something about it.

some folks really do qualify for aluminum foil hats! sheesh

Not sure where all that came from! Nobody had mentioned Amazon knowing about the presence of dodgy books - it was a question of why Amazon would want the kind of access they demand whatever you have on your reader.
Some folks really do fly off the handle! sheesh

vaughnmr
03-22-2010, 08:43 PM
Not sure where all that came from! Nobody had mentioned Amazon knowing about the presence of dodgy books - it was a question of why Amazon would want the kind of access they demand whatever you have on your reader.
Some folks really do fly off the handle! sheesh

Please inform me about the Apple terms when the iPad becomes available...

TGS
03-22-2010, 08:43 PM
People, get a life!

Got one - just trying to keep bits of it - like my reading habits - private :D

K-Thom
03-22-2010, 08:50 PM
Amanzon can't "demand" access to your Kindle, that's the whole point about not getting too nervous about their ToS.

Don't buy eBooks from Amazon, don't turn on Whispernet, and Amazon will never ever know one lousy bit about your reading habits or what you store on your Kindle. It's really that simple.

Still want to upgrade firmware? Download onto your PC, connect Kindle via USB.
Still want to buy eBooks from Amazon? Load them to Kindle for PC (or Mac), rip them, upload them via USB to your Kindle.

Amazon doesn't upload any of your eBooks to their servers ("all your eBooks are belong to us"). There isn't a horde of underpaid members from the outer party who browse through all your files to report any wrongdoing.

This isn't 1984, after all ...

Ramen
03-22-2010, 09:02 PM
I don't really fancy this type of discussion because it typically never changes anything. Still, I'd like to drop a few basic points:
:D

The reason for all this data storage, in case it's escaped anyone's notice, is so that information can be shared and synced between different devices. So if you're reading a book on your Kindle, and then you carry on reading the same book with the Kindle app on an iPhone, you'll automatically start reading at the page you left off at on the Kindle, you'll have all your annotations, etc.

Maybe as an excuse, sure. If that were the intent, Amazon would state something along the lines of "you have X storage allocated to you and we will not access it in any way".

y'all have an over inflated sense of self importance if you really believe that Amazon gives a rats left testicle about the content on your Kindle. so what if you have all of Harry Potter on it? how is Amazon to know where it came from? anyone is perfectly legally within their rights to tear up those books and scan them in. do you REALLY think anyone is going to spend time proving otherwise? now if you were doing it and SELLING the scanned copies, yeah, they'd probably get a little pissed and do something about it.

some folks really do qualify for aluminum foil hats! sheesh

Unfortunately, that argument belongs to a past decade. Nowadays, collecting and mining data has become so cheap and automated that it no longer makes sense to exclude data sets. Just process them all. Nobody will notice the difference (other than better results...).

I kind of react allergic to "I have nothing to hide" and "I don't see what they could possibly use the data for" because it typically stems from ignorance. Again, I really do not want to delve into this any deeper but there are truly staggering things you can currently do with data mining. This is not a subjective point.

Data mining possibilities and costs are technical discussions and the answers are pretty clear. The question here is simply how much does Amazon (and the like) do.

K-Thom
03-22-2010, 09:29 PM
Nope, the question is what for?

All - by any means - crucial information Amazon might ever get to know about you are also known by the company behind your payment method, either your bank or the credit card company. Maybe even AT&T, if you use Whispernet.

WHICH eBooks/authors do you buy. HOW OFTEN do you buy. HOW MUCH do you usually pay. That's data which might be pretty useful for targeting you as a customer.
Ever wonder about all those flyers in the box when you order something tangible from Amazon? That's one of the roads your data goes.
Anything else? Sorry, nope. That's neither naive nor ignorant. Walking through London with each and every of my steps being watched and recorded - now that would really make me nervous ...

Okay, maybe if I buy a pilot's instruction manual for a Boeing 737 and enter a note "keep an eye on crosswinds when heading into the Empire State building", that indeed might cause some trouble, if someone at Amazon would take a look at it ...

DawnFalcon
03-22-2010, 09:31 PM
y'all have an over inflated sense of self importance if you really believe that Amazon gives a rats left testicle about the content on your Kindle. so what if you have all of Harry Potter on it? how is Amazon to know where it came from?

Oh I don't know, the "scanned and proofed by" section you find in most of these books? Bear in mind, if the data is on Amazon's servers, it can be subject to legal discovery.

(Indeed, it's been tried (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9824635-38.html))

What Amazon think is only a small part of the whole issue.

Quite simply, if it's possible to use the data in a certain way and the agreement doesn't exclude that, then you do have to take into account that they are reserving the right to do so. And any collection of data on someone else's servers is subject to their control and privacy standards, and the ownership of that company and their privacy standards can change without the authorisation you have granted them to use that dataset for in the first place lapsing.

"Why do you wish to know that" is a perfectly valid question.

fugazied
03-22-2010, 09:54 PM
I lost interest in Kindles when I found out they could remotely delete books from your device at any time they want to.

Yep that is one of the nastiest features. I find the move from owning books to 'leasing' e-books highly offensive.

I just remove the DRM on my books which lets me put up with the Kindle.
As for privacy, the Internet and casual web browsing is more of a concern to me than Kindle. Privacy is very hard to come by at this point in time, and most people are busy freely giving away their right to privacy on tools like twitter and facebook.

Kali Yuga
03-22-2010, 10:29 PM
I agree with Kali (now THAT's a big change!)
*gasp* *cough* *choke*

:D

Kali Yuga
03-22-2010, 11:27 PM
Your reasoning seems to be that there is already a ton of info "out there" so we may as well just give up and let them have the rest.
My position is a bit more nuanced than that, although this is partly correct.

• I do believe that the information Amazon has access to is basically unimportant. Very little of it is even worth anyone's effort to data mine, except for something like network reliability stats.
• I do believe it is highly unlikely to be abused by government agencies (or at least, no more than having a paper book with notes in the margins, found during a search of your property).
• I do believe almost all of us are making far more critical information available on a regular basis, especially via email, cell phones, and the like.
• If you're going to be careful about this, you really ought to be careful about a heck of a lot of things, because let's face it, this is actually pretty minor and obscure.
• I do NOT regard these type of privacy concerns as "tin foil hat" territory. I'm only expressing that I am not concerned by this particular circumstance, or similar ones (e.g. Gmail, online backup services etc).


Forget privacy? Forget (for U.S. residents) the 4th and 5th amendments? Forget the 1st amendment? (it won't mean a thing to have "free speech" if people become afraid to use it when everything is stored "in the cloud")
Just FYI, there isn't actually any explicit references to "privacy rights" in the US Constitution, it was more fabricated by the Supreme Court in a series of decisions. IIRC the EU has some explicit privacy rights and protections -- which, by the way, a) afaik extend to Amazon as they sell ebooks across the EU and b) therefore we can presume so far Amazon has not violated.

I also do not see this as some sort of slippery slope that will erode our rights as citizens.

You, uh, aren't going to pull a Glenn Beck now and cry on cue, are you? :D


You (and others) see no cause for concern? There are legions of historical examples to prove you wrong. Your attitudes of It Can't Happen Here will serve the next purveyors of dystopia very well. I suspect you were a mere babe in 1984 so welcome to the Brave New World.
Uh, no.

I'm not going to reveal my age because that's none of yer danged business :D but I'm not 16. There's a tremendous difference between Amazon syncing data on their servers, and the NSA hooking into AT&T's routers.

If you don't want a Kindle because of privacy reasons, you have many options, and feel free to go for one (at the price of not getting wireless downloads, automatic backup of purchases and no multi-device syncs). But really, let's have a tad of perspective, and spare us the hyperbole.

DawnFalcon
03-22-2010, 11:52 PM
Yes, the perspective is that the Amazon policy is drafted very broadly, and that Amazon would not do that by mistake. If you are concerned with these issues, don't get a Kindle. Simple enough.

ChrisC333
03-23-2010, 02:07 AM
y'all have an over inflated sense of self importance if you really believe that Amazon gives a rats left testicle about the content on your Kindle.

some folks really do qualify for aluminum foil hats! sheesh

NO! NO! NO! Don’t wear the tinfoil hat - that’s exactly what THEY want you to do! They don’t protect your brainwaves at all! Our research has proved that they actually act as RECEIVERS for the multi-national thought manipulating cartels. :eek:


Think about it. What do they call those little tracking doodads that they sneak onto your computer - Cookies. And what do some people use tinfoil for baking - yes, it’s Cookies again. Coincidence? I think not..... :chinscratch:


The only way to use your KIndle or (brain) Kurdle as THEY call it - is to wear one of our fully organic head protectors - made from 100% natural cow-dung and adobe, using a recipe passed down for centuries by really cosmic old dead dudes from ancient times. Just remember - iPad is an anagram of Dipa - which means “brain-invader” in Ancient Dead Dude Language. It all adds up! Buy a brain screen hat now while stocks last. Coming soon to a paranoiac near you...


Or you could just act as if it really doesn’t matter a damn if some computer somewhere is mindlessly crunching through billions of bytes of dross about which books people clicked on just so that they can send you an automated email saying:

Greetings Zordan the Insignificant,

People like you have been buying “101 Ancient Dung and Adobe Brain Hat Recipes” by Wise Dead Dude” - would you care to cough up for a copy?

P.S. Our server loved your porn collection - it found a couple of clips it didn’t have yet.


You have been warned.

Personally, I'm relaxed about this....

But then I’m pretty strange.


They know that, you know.... :cool:

sianon
03-23-2010, 09:18 AM
Would love to move to Montana and live in a shack, (and raise me up a crop of dental floss, perhaps), but am unlikely to get a Green Card for shack living or dental floss growing :)

As someone said on an earlier thread - which I would have known about had I bothered to look - it's not (or not only), about them knowing about what I've browsed and bought, but it's about them knowing about what I've done with it after I've bought it that seems more intrusive than the background snooping that we all seem to have got used to.

Have you ever stopped to consider that it is rather an egocentric point of view to think that Amazon would consider you as an individual to be worth specifically monitoring what you read. For heavens sake, you are accessing the internet and every site you visit is being recorded by your ISP and can be accessed if required.

Xanthe
03-23-2010, 09:56 AM
When I buy items in a supermarket, I use my shopper's card for discounts, and all of my purchases are recorded and stored.

When I buy books at B&N or Borders, I use my member's card and all of my purchases are recorded and stored.

When I use my library card, information about the books/audios/DVDs that I borrow are recorded and stored.

If I buy books from Amazon and put them on a Kindle, they already know about those books.

If I walk in any major city or into any public buildings, my image is rcorded on cameras.

My cable system has a record of every TV show or movie I access.

My ISP has a record of all the web sites I visit.

Hotel bonus points cards ensure that all of my out-of-state visits are recorded.

And that's not even considering all the information that can be gleaned from my credit card records.

If I want to leave this country, I'm entered in databases.

There's a record of every legitimate job I've had in Social Security's database.

I have a cell phone, OnStar, and an EZ Pass device affixed to my windshield; I can be physically tracked six ways from Sunday.

Privacy is just an illusion, and has been for decades. I began to give it up when I first got a Social Security card as a teenager, and definitely lost it when I got my first credit card. A complete image of me can be created just from my data spoor. It no longer is a bugaboo for me because I refuse to be worried or ashamed about anything I do. I'm not going to restrict my life over the worry that people will know more about me that I would like them to - they already do; when I'm dead and gone it's not going to matter anyway. Information stored about me can already be used against me, may already have been - who the hell knows? So if Amazon wants to know where I place a bookmark, have at it. That's not going to stop me from getting that device if I really want one.:D

kindlekitten
03-23-2010, 10:03 AM
How, exactly, would Amazon know who was and wasn't selling on copies of illegal books held on their Kindle? Perhaps they'd pass on details of all such people just to be on the safe side?

Besides, "When Freedoms are chiseled away......", or does that only apply to freedoms you agree with?

Any system that is open to being abused will one day be abused, whether it's by your boss, your politicians, or merely your disgruntled boyfriend/girlfriend. People need to remember that and act accordingly. My response is to try and give them as little as I can and to fight any erosion of individual rights however I can.




Your reasoning seems to be that there is already a ton of info "out there" so we may as well just give up and let them have the rest. Forget privacy? Forget (for U.S. residents) the 4th and 5th amendments? Forget the 1st amendment? (it won't mean a thing to have "free speech" if people become afraid to use it when everything is stored "in the cloud")

You (and others) see no cause for concern? There are legions of historical examples to prove you wrong. Your attitudes of It Can't Happen Here will serve the next purveyors of dystopia very well. I suspect you were a mere babe in 1984 so welcome to the Brave New World.

Not sure where all that came from! Nobody had mentioned Amazon knowing about the presence of dodgy books - it was a question of why Amazon would want the kind of access they demand whatever you have on your reader.
Some folks really do fly off the handle! sheesh

Amanzon can't "demand" access to your Kindle, that's the whole point about not getting too nervous about their ToS.

Don't buy eBooks from Amazon, don't turn on Whispernet, and Amazon will never ever know one lousy bit about your reading habits or what you store on your Kindle. It's really that simple.

Still want to upgrade firmware? Download onto your PC, connect Kindle via USB.
Still want to buy eBooks from Amazon? Load them to Kindle for PC (or Mac), rip them, upload them via USB to your Kindle.

Amazon doesn't upload any of your eBooks to their servers ("all your eBooks are belong to us"). There isn't a horde of underpaid members from the outer party who browse through all your files to report any wrongdoing.

This isn't 1984, after all ...

I don't really fancy this type of discussion because it typically never changes anything. Still, I'd like to drop a few basic points:
:D



Maybe as an excuse, sure. If that were the intent, Amazon would state something along the lines of "you have X storage allocated to you and we will not access it in any way".



Unfortunately, that argument belongs to a past decade. Nowadays, collecting and mining data has become so cheap and automated that it no longer makes sense to exclude data sets. Just process them all. Nobody will notice the difference (other than better results...).

I kind of react allergic to "I have nothing to hide" and "I don't see what they could possibly use the data for" because it typically stems from ignorance. Again, I really do not want to delve into this any deeper but there are truly staggering things you can currently do with data mining. This is not a subjective point.

Data mining possibilities and costs are technical discussions and the answers are pretty clear. The question here is simply how much does Amazon (and the like) do.

NO! NO! NO! Don’t wear the tinfoil hat - that’s exactly what THEY want you to do! They don’t protect your brainwaves at all! Our research has proved that they actually act as RECEIVERS for the multi-national thought manipulating cartels. :eek:


Think about it. What do they call those little tracking doodads that they sneak onto your computer - Cookies. And what do some people use tinfoil for baking - yes, it’s Cookies again. Coincidence? I think not..... :chinscratch:


The only way to use your KIndle or (brain) Kurdle as THEY call it - is to wear one of our fully organic head protectors - made from 100% natural cow-dung and adobe, using a recipe passed down for centuries by really cosmic old dead dudes from ancient times. Just remember - iPad is an anagram of Dipa - which means “brain-invader” in Ancient Dead Dude Language. It all adds up! Buy a brain screen hat now while stocks last. Coming soon to a paranoiac near you...


Or you could just act as if it really doesn’t matter a damn if some computer somewhere is mindlessly crunching through billions of bytes of dross about which books people clicked on just so that they can send you an automated email saying:

Greetings Zordan the Insignificant,

People like you have been buying “101 Ancient Dung and Adobe Brain Hat Recipes” by Wise Dead Dude” - would you care to cough up for a copy?

P.S. Our server loved your porn collection - it found a couple of clips it didn’t have yet.


You have been warned.

Personally, I'm relaxed about this....

But then I’m pretty strange.


They know that, you know.... :cool:

I had several pointed responses, but it is 0600, I haven't had coffee, and Chris here just did a dandy job.

Ralph Sir Edward
03-23-2010, 10:10 AM
Have you ever stopped to consider that it is rather an egocentric point of view to think that Amazon would consider you as an individual to be worth specifically monitoring what you read. For heavens sake, you are accessing the internet and every site you visit is being recorded by your ISP and can be accessed if required.


Not really. The power of automation....

For example, what if, say JK Rowling wanted all copies of her titles deleted off all Kindles everywhere. Convince Amazon, plug in a data string, punch a button and there you go. Nothing personal, everybody got hammered...

That's the point of the Kindle setup. You grant a push window for amazon to do basically anything they wish. Now they may not wish much, but it's their choice, not yours. Nor do you have to be singled out, you just have to be in the target zone (sic).

suecsi
03-23-2010, 10:29 AM
NO! NO! NO! Don’t wear the tinfoil hat - that’s exactly what THEY want you to do! They don’t protect your brainwaves at all! Our research has proved that they actually act as RECEIVERS for the multi-national thought manipulating cartels. :eek:


Think about it. What do they call those little tracking doodads that they sneak onto your computer - Cookies. And what do some people use tinfoil for baking - yes, it’s Cookies again. Coincidence? I think not..... :chinscratch:


The only way to use your KIndle or (brain) Kurdle as THEY call it - is to wear one of our fully organic head protectors - made from 100% natural cow-dung and adobe, using a recipe passed down for centuries by really cosmic old dead dudes from ancient times. Just remember - iPad is an anagram of Dipa - which means “brain-invader” in Ancient Dead Dude Language. It all adds up! Buy a brain screen hat now while stocks last. Coming soon to a paranoiac near you...


Or you could just act as if it really doesn’t matter a damn if some computer somewhere is mindlessly crunching through billions of bytes of dross about which books people clicked on just so that they can send you an automated email saying:

Greetings Zordan the Insignificant,

People like you have been buying “101 Ancient Dung and Adobe Brain Hat Recipes” by Wise Dead Dude” - would you care to cough up for a copy?

P.S. Our server loved your porn collection - it found a couple of clips it didn’t have yet.


You have been warned.

Personally, I'm relaxed about this....

But then I’m pretty strange.


They know that, you know.... :cool:

:rofl:

kindlekitten
03-23-2010, 01:52 PM
Not really. The power of automation....

For example, what if, say JK Rowling wanted all copies of her titles deleted off all Kindles everywhere. Convince Amazon, plug in a data string, punch a button and there you go. Nothing personal, everybody got hammered...

That's the point of the Kindle setup. You grant a push window for amazon to do basically anything they wish. Now they may not wish much, but it's their choice, not yours. Nor do you have to be singled out, you just have to be in the target zone (sic).

I don't think it can work that way. as I said earlier, if you have done your own scanning, you are fully within your rights to put that copy on your Kindle and Amazon can't do anything about it. sure, they retain info on the stuff you buy, but I don't think they have the ability to read anything on your Kindle that didn't come from them

DawnFalcon
03-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Under the agreement which you've signed up to, though, they have the right to.

TGS
03-23-2010, 02:22 PM
I accept that some people are not concerned about what Amazon might or might not do with their Kindles. Thats's fine - I don't feel any need to question their sanity or cast aspersions on their personalities. What I don't accept is that those same people question my sanity and cast aspersions on my personality because I do have concerns.

Neither I, nor I suspect the pro-Kindle contributors to this thread, apparently actually know what Amazon can do, has done or will do with the data on Kindles. But attempting to ridicule both the concerns and the people who have them is singularly unhelpful. What would be useful is information about Amazon's capabilities to interact with devices and evidence about how they have exercised any such capability.

vaughnmr
03-23-2010, 02:54 PM
I accept that some people are not concerned about what Amazon might or might not do with their Kindles. Thats's fine - I don't feel any need to question their sanity or cast aspersions on their personalities. What I don't accept is that those same people question my sanity and cast aspersions on my personality because I do have concerns.

Neither I, nor I suspect the pro-Kindle contributors to this thread, apparently actually know what Amazon can do, has done or will do with the data on Kindles. But attempting to ridicule both the concerns and the people who have them is singularly unhelpful. What would be useful is information about Amazon's capabilities to interact with devices and evidence about how they have exercised any such capability.

What's kinda tickling my funny bone, is that you've singled out Amazon. No mention of Apple, or B&N, or any of the other sites that could sell you ebooks. Not to mention any of the other web related, government related, or any other commercial related sites (banks, insurance, medical records, drivers license, IRS, Social Security) need I go on... You are too late, they've already got your a**! How about sharing news about the information THOSE sites either sell or share? Or is this just a Amazon bashing thread?

DawnFalcon
03-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Okay, which of the other online bookstores has an agreement involving this level of tracking?

Also, this is a books site, which you may not have noticed, so...yea, discussing booksellers.

Simply because some records are out there does not excuse a company from being overly broad in the details it records about you. You mention things like banks and medical records...where there are laws specifying tight access and security parameters for storing the data. Amazon has none of those. You're smokescreening on an issue some people feel strongly about.

vaughnmr
03-23-2010, 03:23 PM
Okay, which of the other online bookstores has an agreement involving this level of tracking?

Also, this is a books site, which you may not have noticed, so...yea, discussing booksellers.

Simply because some records are out there does not excuse a company from being overly broad in the details it records about you. You mention things like banks and medical records...where there are laws specifying tight access and security parameters for storing the data. Amazon has none of those. You're smokescreening on an issue some people feel strongly about.

Ok, so list the privacy terms of all the other booksellers, and how they differ from Amazon. Include Apple, in another week they will also be involved. All I've heard so far is talk, innuendo. Actually nail the companies down and get them to list the privacy issues, specifically list out your concerns and how they differ from Amazon.

Amazon removed the books from Kindles at the request of publishers, in the case of "1984", due to a copyright issue, and in my mind they did the right thing, but not in the right method, and they learned from that. Probably no other bookseller will repeat that.

Ralph Sir Edward
03-23-2010, 03:30 PM
What's kinda tickling my funny bone, is that you've singled out Amazon. No mention of Apple, or B&N, or any of the other sites that could sell you ebooks. Not to mention any of the other web related, government related, or any other commercial related sites (banks, insurance, medical records, drivers license, IRS, Social Security) need I go on... You are too late, they've already got your a**! How about sharing news about the information THOSE sites either sell or share? Or is this just a Amazon bashing thread?


Some things you can't help, but why open the door for everybody as a matter of policy?

What level of paranoia do you want to be at?

I keep locks on my doors. They won't stop a pro thief, I know that. I'm just discouraging the amateurs. It might be more convenient (to use an old example) to give the milkman the key to the house so he puts the milk directly in the fridge, instead of on the doorstep, but for security reasons, I'll pick it up myself. Nor do I think that this concept is being overly paranoid.

Your mileage may differ...

What I find interesting is the number of people who really don't care who economically (or legally) stalks them. I just hope they don't get their eyes opened the hard way....

tirsales
03-23-2010, 03:32 PM
Well .. do you strip in public? Would you read your diary (provided you are keeping one) out loud on a marketplace? Do you want your neighbors, colleagues and your boss to listen to every phonecall you are doing, reading every email you write, etc?
Answered "no" to any of the questions above? Then you SHOULD value your privacy.

TGS
03-23-2010, 04:29 PM
What's kinda tickling my funny bone, is that you've singled out Amazon. No mention of Apple, or B&N, or any of the other sites that could sell you ebooks. Not to mention any of the other web related, government related, or any other commercial related sites (banks, insurance, medical records, drivers license, IRS, Social Security) need I go on... You are too late, they've already got your a**! How about sharing news about the information THOSE sites either sell or share? Or is this just a Amazon bashing thread?

I've got absolutely nothing against Amazon - in fact I've just ordered £130 worth of pbooks from them because i can't get them as ebooks, and I can't get the pbooks cheaper elsewhere. And I do acknowledge that other book sellers will keep information about my purchasing and probably browsing activity. But I on this occasion I wasn't looking at Amazon to buy a book, I was looking at Amazon with a view to buying a device for reading books. If all that Amazon required me to agree to was for them keep details of my purchases of ebooks I would have no more grounds for complaint than I do against other ebook sellers. But they don't - they require of me that I agree to them having continued and ongoing access to the device after I have bought it, at times and for purposes they deem fit. Their intentions might be entirely innocent but I have no way of telling because I don't know what their intentions are - but even whilst not knowing this I am required, as a condition of buying a Kindle, to agree to them having that access. So, for me, that is a condition I'm not willing to accept.

And I don't own any Apple devices, so have now idea what access they would require to them if I did.

kindlekitten
03-23-2010, 05:48 PM
Under the agreement which you've signed up to, though, they have the right to.

prove it

Ben Thornton
03-23-2010, 06:24 PM
For me, it would be messing about with the content that would be the worry, rather than recording purchases. I'd hate to be half-way through reading something and have it disappear. The practical answer would be to remove DRM etc. and squirrel a copy away, I suppose, were that legal.

DawnFalcon
03-23-2010, 06:40 PM
Amazon removed the books from Kindles at the request of publishers, in the case of "1984", due to a copyright issue, and in my mind they did the right thing

If you support an action which should of seen a criminal case and a considerable fine against them, well, lecture time then I'll ignore you in this thread:

Just because you're happy, as Sanya Thomas put it, hanging your ass out online, doesn't mean everyone is. People are different, and what you dismiss is very important to other people. Cavalierly dismissing people's objections on privacy because of your own views is closed minded.

DawnFalcon
03-23-2010, 06:40 PM
prove it

Read the agreement.

"information related to the content on your Device and your use of it"

Not "content you have bought from us", "content on your device". Remember, I am not talking about what Amazon does, I am talking about what the agreement allows them to do.

Solicitous
03-23-2010, 07:29 PM
Have you ever stopped to consider that it is rather an egocentric point of view to think that Amazon would consider you as an individual to be worth specifically monitoring what you read. For heavens sake, you are accessing the internet and every site you visit is being recorded by your ISP and can be accessed if required.

Amazon monitoring just one person is all but a worthless effort, but you get Amazon monitoring 2 million customers and suddenly you have some very very valuable data. I myself don't like the idea of a company being sent information on what I am reading, for how long, current page etc etc.

I am only singling out Amazon as an example as they are the primary company mentioned in this thread. No doubt there are many many others that data mine.

kindlekitten
03-23-2010, 07:54 PM
Read the agreement.

"information related to the content on your Device and your use of it"

Not "content you have bought from us", "content on your device". Remember, I am not talking about what Amazon does, I am talking about what the agreement allows them to do.

bullshit. here's the whole thing;

1. The Device and Related Services
The Kindle Device (the "Device") is a portable electronic reading device that utilizes wireless connectivity to enable users to shop for, download, browse, and read books, newspapers, magazines, blogs, and other materials, all subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. The "Service" means the wireless connectivity, provision of digital content, software and support, and other services and support that Amazon provides Device users.

2. Wireless Connectivity
General. Amazon provides wireless connectivity free of charge to you for certain content shopping and downloading services on your Device. You may be charged a fee for wireless connectivity for your use of other wireless services on your Device, such as Web browsing and downloading of personal files, should you elect to use those services. We will maintain a list of current fees for such services in the Kindle Store. Amazon reserves the right to discontinue wireless connectivity at any time or to otherwise change the terms for wireless connectivity at any time, including, but not limited to (a) limiting the number and size of data files that may be transferred using wireless connectivity and (b) changing the amount and terms applicable for wireless connectivity charges.

Coverage and Service Interruptions. You acknowledge that if your Device is located in any area without applicable wireless connectivity, you may not be able to use some or all elements of the wireless services. We are not responsible for the unavailability of wireless service or any interruptions of wireless connectivity.

Your Conduct. You agree you will use the wireless connectivity provided by Amazon only in connection with Services Amazon provides for the Device. You may not use the wireless connectivity for any other purpose.

3. Digital Content
The Kindle Store. The Kindle Store enables you to download, display and use on your Device a variety of digitized electronic content, such as books, subscriptions to magazines, newspapers, journals and other periodicals, blogs, RSS feeds, and other digital content, as determined by Amazon from time to time (individually and collectively, "Digital Content").

Use of Digital Content. Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

Restrictions. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, bypass, modify, defeat or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content.

Subscriptions. The following applies with respect to Digital Content made available to you on a subscription basis, including, but not limited to, electronic newspapers, magazines, journals and other periodicals (collectively, "Periodicals"): (i) you may request cancellation of your subscription by following the cancellation instructions in the Kindle Store; (ii) we may terminate a subscription at our discretion without notice, for example, if a Periodical is no longer available; (iii) if we terminate a subscription in advance of the end of its term, we will give you a prorated refund; (iv) we reserve the right to change subscription terms and fees from time to time, effective as of the beginning of the next term; and (v) taxes may apply to subscription fees and will be added if applicable.

4. Software
Definitions. The following terms apply to the Device and to (a) all software (and the media on which such software is distributed) of Amazon or third parties that is pre-installed on the Device at time of purchase or that Amazon provides as updates/upgrades to the pre-installed software (collectively, the "Device Software"), unless you agree to other terms as part of an update/upgrade process; and (b) any printed, on-line or other electronic documentation for such software (the "Documentation"). As used in this Agreement, "Software" means, collectively, the Device Software and Documentation.

Use of the Device Software. You may use the Device Software only on the Device. You may not separate any individual component of the Device Software for use on another device or computer, may not transfer it for use on another device or use it, or any portion of it, over a network and may not sell, rent, lease, lend, distribute or sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Software in whole or in part.

No Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, Disassembly or Circumvention. You may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, modify, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Device or the Software, whether in whole or in part, create any derivative works from or of the Software, or bypass, modify, defeat or tamper with or circumvent any of the functions or protections of the Device or Software or any mechanisms operatively linked to the Software, including, but not limited to, augmenting or substituting any digital rights management functionality of the Device or Software.

Automatic Updates. In order to keep your Software up-to-date, Amazon may automatically provide your Device with updates/upgrades to the Software.

Export Regulations. You agree to comply with all export and re-export restrictions and regulations of the Department of Commerce and other United States agencies and authorities, and not to transfer, or encourage, assist or authorize the transfer of the Software to a prohibited country or otherwise in violation of any such restrictions or regulations.

Government End Users. The Software is a "Commercial item" as that term is defined at 48 C.F.R. § 2.101, consisting of "Commercial Computer Software" and "Commercial Computer Software Documentation," as such terms are used in 48 C.F.R. §12.212 or 48 C.F.R. § 227.7202, as applicable. Consistent with these provisions, the Software is being licensed to U.S. Government end users (a) only as a Commercial item and (b) with only those rights as are granted to all other end users pursuant to the terms and conditions of this Agreement.

5. General
No Illegal Use and Reservation of Rights. You may not use the Device, the Service or the Digital Content for any illegal purpose. You acknowledge that the sale of the Device to you does not transfer to you title to or ownership of any intellectual property rights of Amazon or its suppliers. All of the Software is licensed, not sold, and such license is non-exclusive.

Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.

Patents. The Device and/or methods used in association with the Device may be covered by one or more patents or pending patent applications.

Changes to Service. Amazon reserves the right to modify, suspend, or discontinue the Service at any time, and Amazon will not be liable to you should it exercise such right.

Termination. Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate without notice from Amazon if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement. In case of such termination, you must cease all use of the Software and Amazon may immediately revoke your access to the Service or to Digital Content without notice to you and without refund of any fees. Amazon's failure to insist upon or enforce your strict compliance with this Agreement will not constitute a waiver of any of its rights.

Disclaimer of Warranties. YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE SERVICE, DEVICE, DIGITAL CONTENT AND SOFTWARE IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. EXCEPT FOR THE ONE-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY, THE SERVICE, DEVICE, DIGITAL CONTENT AND SOFTWARE ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND AND AMAZON AND ITS SUPPLIERS AND LICENSORS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ACCURACY, QUIET ENJOYMENT AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD-PARTY RIGHTS. NO ORAL OR WRITTEN INFORMATION OR ADVICE GIVEN BY AMAZON OR AN AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE OF AMAZON SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY. THE LAWS OF CERTAIN JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE DISCLAIMER OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES. IF THESE LAWS APPLY TO YOU, SOME OR ALL OF THE ABOVE DISCLAIMERS, EXCLUSIONS OR LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU, AND YOU MAY HAVE ADDITIONAL RIGHTS.

Limitation of Liability. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY LAW, NEITHER AMAZON NOR ITS SUPPLIERS OR LICENSORS SHALL BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES FOR BREACH OF ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY, BREACH OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE, STRICT LIABILITY OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY RELATED TO THE SERVICE, DEVICE, DIGITAL CONTENT OR SOFTWARE, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF LOSS OF PROFITS, REVENUE, DATA OR USE OF THE DEVICE OR SOFTWARE OR ANY ASSOCIATED PRODUCT, EVEN IF AMAZON HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN ANY CASE, AMAZON'S AGGREGATE LIABILITY UNDER THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT ACTUALLY PAID FOR THE DEVICE. THE LAWS OF CERTAIN JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. IF THESE LAWS APPLY TO YOU, SOME OR ALL OF THE ABOVE EXCLUSIONS OR LIMITATIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU, AND YOU MAY HAVE ADDITIONAL RIGHTS.

Washington Law Applies. The laws of the state of Washington, without regard to principles of conflict of laws, will govern this Agreement and any dispute of any sort that might arise between you and Amazon.

Disputes. ANY DISPUTE ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING IN ANYWAY TO THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE SUBMITTED TO CONFIDENTIAL ARBITRATION IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON, EXCEPT THAT, TO THE EXTENT YOU HAVE IN ANY MANNER VIOLATED OR THREATENED TO VIOLATE AMAZON'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS, AMAZON MAY SEEK INJUNCTIVE OR OTHER APPROPRIATE RELIEF IN ANY STATE OR FEDERAL COURT IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON, AND YOU CONSENT TO EXCLUSIVE JURISDICTION AND VENUE IN SUCH COURTS. The arbitrator's award shall be binding and may be entered as a judgment in any court of competent jurisdiction. To the fullest extent permitted by applicable law, no arbitration under this Agreement shall be joined to an arbitration involving any other party subject to this Agreement, whether through class arbitration proceedings or otherwise.

Severability. If any term or condition of this Agreement shall be deemed invalid, void, or for any reason unenforceable, that part shall be deemed severable and shall not affect the validity and enforceability of any remaining term or condition.

Amendment. Amazon reserves the right to amend any of the terms of this Agreement at its sole discretion by posting the revised terms on the Kindle Store or the Amazon.com website. Your continued use of the Device and Software after the effective date of any such amendment shall be deemed your agreement to be bound by such amendment.

Ben Thornton
03-23-2010, 08:10 PM
That does look mostly harmless, to be honest.

My gripes with a Kindle would be device lock-in, lack of folder support and no touch screen - this doesn't look like much of an issue compared to those.

vaughnmr
03-23-2010, 09:08 PM
If you support an action which should of seen a criminal case and a considerable fine against them, well, lecture time then I'll ignore you in this thread.

I'm not exactly sure what you're telling me, but I suggest you look into what actually happened. One of the big issues was the loss of someone's annotations that were also removed when the book "1984" was deleted due to copyright violations (unknown to Amazon at the time they sold it), and that resulted in a lawsuit against Amazon. After that, I think that all e-book sellers tightened up their actions.

Kindlekitten, you won't get thru to these people, they can't hear thru tinfoil.

DawnFalcon
03-23-2010, 10:29 PM
I'm not exactly sure what you're telling me, but I suggest you look into what actually happened. One of the big issues was the loss of someone's annotations..

Yes, precisely that - theft (which does fit here, of course) and fraud. And I am of the strong opinion that such cases should be prosecuted in the public interest. A few tens of millions of pounds of fines to demonstrate that would not go amiss, afaik.

(To be clear, I have very little tolerance for any corporation committing fraud.)


kindlekitten - The line I quoted gives them the right to do so. I'd try reading it rather than posting the entire agreement, which not relevant to the point: It does not modify the meaning of the sentence at all, and hence I question why you posted it.

You don't think it's important. Fine. Then why the heck are you trying to make it out that it's not important to anyone, when there are issues which more than a few people here have pointed DO matter to them, to the degree of affecting their purchasing decisions.

It's selfish and short sighted of you to demand that everyone see things your way on the matter.

kindlekitten
03-23-2010, 10:40 PM
I'm not exactly sure what you're telling me, but I suggest you look into what actually happened. One of the big issues was the loss of someone's annotations that were also removed when the book "1984" was deleted due to copyright violations (unknown to Amazon at the time they sold it), and that resulted in a lawsuit against Amazon. After that, I think that all e-book sellers tightened up their actions.

Kindlekitten, you won't get thru to these people, they can't hear thru tinfoil.

yeah I know, can't blame a girl for trying.

Yes, precisely that - theft (which does fit here, of course) and fraud. And I am of the strong opinion that such cases should be prosecuted in the public interest. A few tens of millions of pounds of fines to demonstrate that would not go amiss, afaik.

(To be clear, I have very little tolerance for any corporation committing fraud.)


kindlekitten - The line I quoted gives them the right to do so. I'd try reading it rather than posting the entire agreement, which not relevant to the point: It does not modify the meaning of the sentence at all, and hence I question why you posted it.

You don't think it's important. Fine. Then why the heck are you trying to make it out that it's not important to anyone, when there are issues which more than a few people here have pointed DO matter to them, to the degree of affecting their purchasing decisions.

It's selfish and short sighted of you to demand that everyone see things your way on the matter.

I have read it. several times. it does NOT say what you are implying.

ChrisC333
03-23-2010, 10:52 PM
That does look mostly harmless, to be honest.

My gripes with a Kindle would be device lock-in, lack of folder support and no touch screen - this doesn't look like much of an issue compared to those.

+1

I like a bit of privacy as much as the next person - I live in the middle of a treed 5 acre block, and I have a No Junk Mail sign on the mailbox. But I also like to try and keep some perspective and balance about these things.


Every time I'm in public, people are making snap judgements about me based on the data they gather. It's an unavoidable part of life. They'll use the way I look, my age, how I'm dressed, my ethnicity, the car I drive, what my voice sounds live and so on. And I do the same to them. The judgements can be wrong, but for the most part the consequences aren't much of a big deal. Nor are they usually irreversible.


Companies tend to write the sort of stuff that we're talking about here for two major reasons:

1) To protect their own back-sides from litigation. This can come from the oddest of angles, so the wording tends to be pretty broad.

2) For commercial reasons. This can take a few forms but mostly it means building a customer data base in order to try and sell them more stuff. Properly done this is cheaper and more effective than paying for blanket ads that reach millions of people who won't ever be interested anyway.


The point here is that I'm not giving Amazon permission to search my house or use my Kindle for some unspecified malicious purposes. There's no commercial advantage in them pissing me off, and what are they going to do? Threaten to tell the blokes at the pub that they found a Jane Austen book on my Kindle and blackmail me for their silence? Start a separate site to publish all the lamest and weirdest things they found on a Kindle? There's also no mileage for them in doing this 'hands on' - the price of wages would far outweigh any possible extra sales - it could only be done cost-effectively by mashing the data through a program that tried to pick what you might like to buy next.

I actually LIKE them to make suggestions on what I might like to look at, based on my prior record. One of the downsides of the hundreds of thousands of titles online is the difficultly in ploughing through it all in search of fresh material. If they can help, then I'd say THANK YOU! If I don't like their suggestions I just ignore them.

Suit me anyway. :)

ChrisC333
03-23-2010, 11:11 PM
These are also from the Amazon Kindle site:

Browsing History

Your Browsing History is meant to help you keep track of some of the items you've recently viewed, searches you've recently made, and product categories you've recently visited.

If you do not enjoy this feature and want to turn it off, simply click Turn Off Browsing History in the box to the left. Turning this feature off will turn it off for anyone who uses your Web browser. If you'd like to re-enable Your Browsing History for your browser, return to this page and click the Turn On Browsing History button that will appear.

Advertising


Amazon strives to give you choices about how information about you is collected and used. This feature allows you to choose not to see personalized advertisements on Amazon.com or personalized Amazon ads on other websites. It also allows you to choose not to have certain information about you collected from websites other than Amazon.com and its affiliated sites. For more details about these choices, please read on.

That all seems reasonable and rational to me. "Personalising" seems like trying to get a handle on what I'm likely to respond to, and attempting to minimise wasting both their time and mine by pushing stuff I'm not likely to want.

It doesn't feel like they're 'spying' on me in any way that I should fear. The 'attention' they're paying me might be phoney and computerised - with all the depth of a "Have a nice day!" at the checkout - but I really can't seem to work up any indignation about it. :)

Chris

kindlekitten
03-23-2010, 11:19 PM
the tinfoil hat crowd are convinced that Amazon is going to pull a big brother and pull any ill gotten acquisitions from their Kindles willy nilly. *sigh*

Solicitous
03-23-2010, 11:27 PM
Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.


Dude, he's actually right, this is the relevant paragraph. Basically it is giving examples of the content of data being sent back to Amazon, but is not limited to those listed. In short Amazon can collect any data from your Kindle that they see fit. Got a law document on there and am making notes in relation to a case?...they can take that.

The bit I especially like in the document is;

No Reverse Engineering, Decompilation, Disassembly or Circumvention. You may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, modify, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Device or the Software, whether in whole or in part, create any derivative works from or of the Software, or bypass, modify, defeat or tamper with or circumvent any of the functions or protections of the Device or Software or any mechanisms operatively linked to the Software, including, but not limited to, augmenting or substituting any digital rights management functionality of the Device or Software.

You breach the terms and conditions of sale if you open it up and replace your own damn battery. Amazon are well within their rights to suspend your service if you do not use Amazon to replace your battery, even for an out of warranty unit.

DawnFalcon
03-23-2010, 11:28 PM
I have read it. several times. it does NOT say what you are implying.

I am not implying, I am stating. Because it is plain English, and it is perfectly plain. I'm sorry, but your invocation of the insanity defence really isn't helping my case that you're simply demanding everyone view this your way.

And yes, I'm sure your brave tinfoil brigade which you are leading so valiently is claiming that. Once more, I have never claimed so - I have repeatedly stated otherwise. What I am saying, once again, in the futile hope that you will read this time rather than dismissing anything I type as contrary to your ideology, is that it is permitted by the agreement, rather than that Amazon are currently doing any such thing or have plans thereunto.

However, this doesn't excuse the overly broad policy, which should be corrected to make it plain the limits Amazon will restrict themselves to. That would, as this thread shows, gain them customers.

ChrisC333
03-24-2010, 12:24 AM
the tinfoil hat crowd are convinced that Amazon is going to pull a big brother and pull any ill gotten acquisitions from their Kindles willy nilly. *sigh*


Interesting point. Some copyright holders would probably be pleased if they did. I wonder how it stands up though?


Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that Amazon/Kindle are booksellers rather than publishers. Middle-men in other words. If I was running Amazon, these would be two of my objectives:


1) Maximise the sales of books. I’d certainly try to do this by trying to match my pitches to the reader’s likely preferences.

2) Minimise any problems with the publishers and authors who supply the content.


With regard to the second point, I really wouldn’t want to waste a lot of time and resources on acting as unpaid policeman or nanny for all the other parties. However, I would want to protect myself from allegations by my suppliers that I’d failed to take reasonable steps to shield their property from theft. I’d be especially cautious about being left open to charges that I had facilitated rip offs - even unintentionally.


A case recent went through the Australian courts in which a group of very powerful movie interests sued a local ISP for failing to stop some of their subscribers from using the Internet to illegally download copies of movies. They weren’t accusing them of providing the software or sites - just of failing to prevent that kind of traffic via their network. A big demand.


So I still can’t really see anything in this but Amazon attempting to steer a prudent line between their suppliers and their customers. I don’t imagine that they would themselves want to get involved with deciding what content was ‘illegal’ and deleting it, and would probably resist pressure from publishers to actively behave as their police force.

However, my guess is that they would want to keep firm control over how many devices you can download your book to. If they didn’t then you could simply get all your mates to hook up to your account and download dozens of copies onto multiple devices (I currently have 3 devices authorised - none of which are an actual Kindle - they are 2 PCs and an iTouch ). So ‘electronic surveillance’ of the books you got from them seems inevitable (and reasonable enough). My understanding is that the publishers themselves set down how many devices they allow you to ‘authorise’ and may limit how many times you can freely re-download before it cuts out (at which point you can give a reason and apply for it to be extended). I don’t know if this is up-to-date or if it varies much between publishers and selling sites.

Would they really want to open such a controversial can of worms by wiping stuff? I doubt it. I don’t imagine they’d really want to get involved in policing anything other than the e-books they had already sold to us.

That’s my guess anyway. :)

PKFFW
03-24-2010, 12:29 AM
Yes, precisely that - theft (which does fit here, of course) and fraud.....
I'd be interested in hearing why you believe the term "theft" fits with regards to the mentioned case.

Cheers,
PKFFW

kindlekitten
03-24-2010, 01:39 AM
Dude, he's actually right, this is the relevant paragraph. Basically it is giving examples of the content of data being sent back to Amazon, but is not limited to those listed. In short Amazon can collect any data from your Kindle that they see fit. Got a law document on there and am making notes in relation to a case?...they can take that.

The bit I especially like in the document is;



You breach the terms and conditions of sale if you open it up and replace your own damn battery. Amazon are well within their rights to suspend your service if you do not use Amazon to replace your battery, even for an out of warranty unit.

d00d; this is THE paragraph that needs to be paid attention to;

]Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.[/I]

they are NOT reading everyone's Kindles! basically what they can do is send a sort of digital handshake to items obtained from Amazon. other than that they have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE!!! what it is!!!!

I am not implying, I am stating. Because it is plain English, and it is perfectly plain. I'm sorry, but your invocation of the insanity defence really isn't helping my case that you're simply demanding everyone view this your way.

And yes, I'm sure your brave tinfoil brigade which you are leading so valiently is claiming that. Once more, I have never claimed so - I have repeatedly stated otherwise. What I am saying, once again, in the futile hope that you will read this time rather than dismissing anything I type as contrary to your ideology, is that it is permitted by the agreement, rather than that Amazon are currently doing any such thing or have plans thereunto.

However, this doesn't excuse the overly broad policy, which should be corrected to make it plain the limits Amazon will restrict themselves to. That would, as this thread shows, gain them customers.

I forgot this the idiot that renames himself whenever he has an argument with someone. he's what makes pig wrasslin' so attractive. carry on with your tin foil

Interesting point. Some copyright holders would probably be pleased if they did. I wonder how it stands up though?


Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that Amazon/Kindle are booksellers rather than publishers. Middle-men in other words. If I was running Amazon, these would be two of my objectives:


1) Maximise the sales of books. I’d certainly try to do this by trying to match my pitches to the reader’s likely preferences.

2) Minimise any problems with the publishers and authors who supply the content.


With regard to the second point, I really wouldn’t want to waste a lot of time and resources on acting as unpaid policeman or nanny for all the other parties. However, I would want to protect myself from allegations by my suppliers that I’d failed to take reasonable steps to shield their property from theft. I’d be especially cautious about being left open to charges that I had facilitated rip offs - even unintentionally.


A case recent went through the Australian courts in which a group of very powerful movie interests sued a local ISP for failing to stop some of their subscribers from using the Internet to illegally download copies of movies. They weren’t accusing them of providing the software or sites - just of failing to prevent that kind of traffic via their network. A big demand.


So I still can’t really see anything in this but Amazon attempting to steer a prudent line between their suppliers and their customers. I don’t imagine that they would themselves want to get involved with deciding what content was ‘illegal’ and deleting it, and would probably resist pressure from publishers to actively behave as their police force.

However, my guess is that they would want to keep firm control over how many devices you can download your book to. If they didn’t then you could simply get all your mates to hook up to your account and download dozens of copies onto multiple devices (I currently have 3 devices authorised - none of which are an actual Kindle - they are 2 PCs and an iTouch ). So ‘electronic surveillance’ of the books you got from them seems inevitable (and reasonable enough). My understanding is that the publishers themselves set down how many devices they allow you to ‘authorise’ and may limit how many times you can freely re-download before it cuts out (at which point you can give a reason and apply for it to be extended). I don’t know if this is up-to-date or if it varies much between publishers and selling sites.

Would they really want to open such a controversial can of worms by wiping stuff? I doubt it. I don’t imagine they’d really want to get involved in policing anything other than the e-books they had already sold to us.

That’s my guess anyway. :)

unless someone can make a case that Amazon helped steal content through their negligence, this just isn't going to be an issue. they can't read through all of our Kindles. among other things, Hollywood is using them extensively for scripts. Amazon wouldn't be allowed to get into them. I've loaded sensitive work related PDFs on them. damn straight the Army would have had my ass by now if they thought they were being looked at

scveteran
03-24-2010, 04:40 AM
The use of the phrase 'such as' would give me pause - they're only giving you part of the picture.

No. They are covering their back in case they have changes to the software and it adds some minor data.

BTW, this seems innocent enough to me and I have no objection to it. Of course I don't automatically assume that everything is a conspiracy and that they are out to get you.

TGS
03-24-2010, 11:36 AM
So, I noticed than no-one seems to really know what Amazon can or does do with their access to Kindles, so I asked them and this is what they said:


As described in the section you quoted, the logfile contains "data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device)". The logfile is used by our technical team to diagnose any possible problems your device may have.

Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights are also stored by us so you can use Whispernet to synchronize that data on all your Kindle devices and applications. An example of this would be if you wanted to synchronize the furthest page read of a book you were reading on your Kindle DX, on your Kindle for iPhone.

So, there you go!

kindlekitten
03-24-2010, 11:42 AM
that's pretty clear to me. Ladies and Gentlemen it is now safe to remove your tinfoil!

Kali Yuga
03-24-2010, 01:22 PM
What I don't accept is that those same people question my sanity and cast aspersions on my personality because I do have concerns.
Just to reiterate, I for one don't think you're nuts. I'm just trying to point out why I do not share your worries.


Neither I, nor I suspect the pro-Kindle contributors to this thread, apparently actually know what Amazon can do, has done or will do with the data on Kindles.... What would be useful is information about Amazon's capabilities to interact with devices and evidence about how they have exercised any such capability.
Actually, we have a pretty good idea what Amazon and competitors like Apple can do and have done.

Both of these companies, and almost certainly B&N and any other ebook reader with 3g capabilities and syncing materials to the cloud, do the following.
- keep a record of what you've purchased
- track your browsing habits on their sites and online stores
- keep track of last page read, notes, and marks at time of sync
- record location data (as does your cell phone) for reliability purposes
- remotely wipe materials you have purchased through the official outlets (e.g. Apple can remotely kill iPhone / iPad apps at any time) in specific circumstances, e.g. an app is actually malware; if your iPhone gets stolen and you use .Me, you can remotely wipe it; a book turns out to violate copyrights)
- update firmware

Most of this has been exhumed via the Orwell "1984" issues and a few other enterprising individuals' research.

So far there is no indication whatsoever that they keep track of any materials you put on the Kindle outside of their official / Whispernet services. They certainly don't sync it for you.

Almost every online retailer is also data mining their sales, which they use for their own internal purposes. They also turn around and sell this data to the publishers. This applies to any product you purchase online, not just books. I'm pretty sure credit card companies, credit agencies, demographic research companies, web email services, search engines etc are all engaged in similar pursuits.

I concur there is a certain lack of transparency here. And if it bugs you, buy something else -- though keep in mind whoever you're buying books from is still up in your business. In practical terms, I do not see any significant additional loss of privacy as a result of Whispernet and similar syncing technologies.

Therefore, I'd say that duking it out with your significant other on Facebook (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/fashion/18facebook.html?scp=4&sq=facebook&st=cse) is a far worse threat to your privacy than the Kindle.

TGS
03-24-2010, 01:48 PM
But....just to be clear I have sent a follow-up to ask Amazon specifically whether, if I have, for example, work related PDFs on a Kindle, whether they can see them. If they come back and say they can't I might even buy one!

TGS
03-24-2010, 02:12 PM
And this is what they said

Beyond the specific information quoted in our previous response for logfiles that we use when you contact us for troubleshooting, and the bookmarks, highlights, and notes that you can choose to sync to our servers for use across multiple devices, we are not able to see individual files you place on your Kindle.

Personal documents that you place on your Kindle remain anonymous. They are not something that we see or "see into," even in the event that we do need to pull specific logs for device troubleshooting. If they are of a compatible format such as PDF then you can transfer them directly to your Kindle via USB and bypass our conversion & delivery service as well.

=X=
03-24-2010, 02:27 PM
But....just to be clear I have sent a follow-up to ask Amazon specifically whether, if I have, for example, work related PDFs on a Kindle, whether they can see them. If they come back and say they can't I might even buy one!

You know you don't have to registered your device, my Kindle is not registered.

The drawback is there is no auto sync and no ability to email your documents to the kindle, but everything else works the same. I can use the TTS, bookmarks and clippings on all of these books (except for the PDF books). The 3G connectivity works... and not having to pay for 3G to read blogs and downloading books for free(FeedBooks/MobileRead) is quite nice!

I'm currently working on being able to download my books from home on the kindle.

I laugh every time I hear somebody criticize the Kindle being tied to one store. I'm reading on my kindle all the books I bought from different stores outside of the Kindle, originally for the SONY PRS-505. Since most of my books where PDF and MOBI, I'm actually saving more time using the Kindle since I don't have to convert the MOBI to LRF.

To date I've only bought two books on the Kindle store, one of them was Topaz the other was DRM-Free.



=X=

kindlekitten
03-24-2010, 02:36 PM
And this is what they said

can it get anymore clear? seriously. permission to remove tinfoil granted

TGS
03-24-2010, 02:45 PM
can it get anymore clear? seriously. permission to remove tinfoil granted

Point taken...but - just to have the last word :D - what convinced me is asking Amazon what they actually do and can do. Polemic and ridiculing (on both sides of the "debate") didn't really serve to move the discussion on.

kindlekitten
03-24-2010, 02:51 PM
*shrug* sometimes you just don't need to buy a whole lot of trouble. aslo understanding a digital handshake helps an awful lot

DawnFalcon
03-24-2010, 05:09 PM
I'd be interested in hearing why you believe the term "theft" fits with regards to the mentioned case.

Because the legal definition fits, of course.

scveteran - Regardless, "such as" means that it's only an example and they are not limited in any way to those. There is no reason for such, they can and should include every intended use and of course there is a section allowing them to change the agreement - they'd simply have to update it for future uses.

TGS - Except... the agreement text is all that matters, they're not bound by anything else. Sorry.

DawnFalcon
03-24-2010, 05:30 PM
d00d; this is THE paragraph that needs to be paid attention to;

Well yes, that's the paragraph which was already posted in this thread.

information related to the content on your Device and your use of it

ANY information. Not "Amazon-purchased" content, content. Again, this is not tinfoil hat time, that's your ball, it's "this is overly broad and should be altered". Sheesh.

they are NOT reading everyone's Kindles! basically what they can do is send a sort of digital handshake to items obtained from Amazon. other than that they have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE!!! what it is!!!!

Once again, what they can do in a technical sense is quite irrelevant to what I'm saying. (And can be changed anyway, if they so desire)

damn straight the Army would have had my ass by now if they thought they were being looked at

Actually, Ereaders with 3G are treated identically to cell phones ("you may not") in the UK, when it comes to classified documents. It's nothing really to do with Amazon ofc...

PKFFW
03-24-2010, 06:07 PM
Because the legal definition fits, of course.
I don't see how.

Cheers,
PKFFW

DawnFalcon
03-24-2010, 06:32 PM
Under UK law, deleting copyrighted data belonging to someone else is theft, if the other party has a copy of the data - which they do (even if their copy was deleted at the same time). It's also unauthorised access under the computer misuse act and fraud, of course.

ChrisC333
03-24-2010, 08:00 PM
So, I noticed than no-one seems to really know what Amazon can or does do with their access to Kindles, so I asked them and this is what they said:

So, there you go!

Good job! :thumbsup:

Here's an example that might demonstrate some of how it works in practice:


A couple of days ago I got locked out of a book that I’d legally purchased a few days before and only partly read. If I was inclined to conspiracy theories I might well have got all excited by this. However, I’m not. So I worked through and fixed it. This is how it went:


1: Book wouldn’t open when I click on it in the Kindle reader software on the notebook that it had been originally downloaded to.

2. Message comes up politely asking me to delete the book and download it again. No explanation of what the problem is, or instructions how to re-load.

3. Decide that this could be one of those “If all else fails read the instructions” moments, so I go to the site and read some of the bits I’d skipped before.

4. Wonder what I might have done to provoke the incident. Recall that I had also installed the Kindle software on a desktop PC to test out how it looked on a full sized screen, and that I’d copied a couple of books across using a thumb-drive (including the book in question). Hadn’t authorised the second PC at that time. Aha! That could be the difficulty. :o

5. Deleted the book from both PCs, authorised the 2nd one and then downloaded the book back onto the notebook that I've been reading it on. Problem fixed, and my Amazon/Kindle account now shows PC, iTouch and PC2 as my devices.

6. When I opened the same book on my iTouch, I didn't need to re-download the book, but it did then sync with the server and ask me if I want to move forward to the page I’d read up to on the other device. Accept the offer and continue reading from where I left off.


It all seems reasonable to me. They presumably have an obligation to the publishers not to allow downloads to unlimited devices from my account, so I needed to follow the right steps to authorise my gear. I could have found my place without the sync, but it’s quite a neat feature and certainly saved me a bit of time. :)

Cheers,

Chris

TGS
03-24-2010, 08:15 PM
aslo understanding a digital handshake helps an awful lot

Yeah, but not understanding digital handshakes is not a personality defect, it's just something that someone hasn't had the need to understand up until that point.

kindlekitten
03-24-2010, 09:26 PM
Actually, Ereaders with 3G are treated identically to cell phones ("you may not") in the UK, when it comes to classified documents. It's nothing really to do with Amazon ofc...

no they're not. at least not in the US and I highly doubt if you have any clear knowledge of British Army Regs.

Yeah, but not understanding digital handshakes is not a personality defect, it's just something that someone hasn't had the need to understand up until that point.

understood. I attempted to get to this earlier but someone elses tin hat antics distracted me

DawnFalcon
03-24-2010, 09:55 PM
Yea, it's amazing how your own antics with tin foil are distracting when you're chasing an argument which was never made.

And UK. Not "America", not "British Army", UK. Civil service policy. Sorry, no, we're really NOT a state of America here...

PKFFW
03-24-2010, 10:02 PM
Under UK law, deleting copyrighted data belonging to someone else is theft, if the other party has a copy of the data - which they do (even if their copy was deleted at the same time). It's also unauthorised access under the computer misuse act and fraud, of course.
Ah, a case of it being theft where you live but not where I do.

Not sure about the USA and that would be the real issue since Amazon could only have deleted the content from US kindles since whispernet doesn't work elsewhere. Therefore it may or may not be classed as theft there depending on the law.

Cheers,
PKFFW

kindlekitten
03-24-2010, 11:11 PM
Yea, it's amazing how your own antics with tin foil are distracting when you're chasing an argument which was never made.

And UK. Not "America", not "British Army", UK. Civil service policy. Sorry, no, we're really NOT a state of America here...

you let the assumption;

Actually, Ereaders with 3G are treated identically to cell phones ("you may not") in the UK, when it comes to classified documents. It's nothing really to do with Amazon ofc...

be that it was the British Army as that was the main point of my post you were attempting to refute.

regardless.... you are a sore loser, a small id, and certainly not worth my trouble. this discussion is DONE. Amazon answered. no big brother, move on, find another conspiracy to play with

DawnFalcon
03-24-2010, 11:43 PM
I'm pleased you acknowledge your flaws, it's always refreshing when a malefactor owns up. But no, I never made any reference to the British Army, you invented that out of thin air. I wasn't trying to "refute" anything either, I was pointing out that in the UK, it is considered an issue.

There is, of course, no conspiracy. That's your ball. The "problem" is simply a broadly and badly written user agreement, which could use clarifying. The issue stands, and for anyone who is not closed-minded and indeed bigoted in the extreme can see - from comments in this very thread - that it is something which can affect purchasing decisions.

kindlekitten
03-25-2010, 02:02 AM
*yawn*

Ben Thornton
03-25-2010, 08:32 AM
I don't want to get into the middle of a spat, but I work (and have worked over the years) with various parts of UK government, and it is true that you should only use approved devices to store anything above unclassified. I would like to use my reader to proof documents, but I never would even for the lowest classification relating to non-military aspects of government, because I could lose my job by doing so. To use such a device, we would need to get an approved version with appropriate encryption and key management.

So, it surprises me that you are OK to use a Kindle to read US military documents - unless it's all unclassified, in which case that would be fine, of course.

I suspect that there are crossed wires here somewhere.

kindlekitten
03-25-2010, 09:26 AM
it was treated like a laptop. the level of security depended upon what could be put on it. so it was acknowledged it was a mobile device, ie; could leave the premises, but as far as anyone remotely accessing the information... that wasn't an issue

scveteran
03-25-2010, 09:46 PM
Yes, precisely that - theft (which does fit here, of course) and fraud. And I am of the strong opinion that such cases should be prosecuted in the public interest. A few tens of millions of pounds of fines to demonstrate that would not go amiss, afaik.

(To be clear, I have very little tolerance for any corporation committing fraud.)


kindlekitten - The line I quoted gives them the right to do so. I'd try reading it rather than posting the entire agreement, which not relevant to the point: It does not modify the meaning of the sentence at all, and hence I question why you posted it.

You don't think it's important. Fine. Then why the heck are you trying to make it out that it's not important to anyone, when there are issues which more than a few people here have pointed DO matter to them, to the degree of affecting their purchasing decisions.

It's selfish and short sighted of you to demand that everyone see things your way on the matter.

I guess she is selfish and short sighted if she tries to get people to believe the world is round too. After all she is trying to get people to see reality when they want to believe something else.

scveteran
03-25-2010, 09:53 PM
I'd be interested in hearing why you believe the term "theft" fits with regards to the mentioned case.

Cheers,
PKFFW

If I remember correctly he believes it is ok to steal content from publishers if it is DRMed or that it is not in the right format. Yet he calls what Amazon does theft. This is really confusing.

scveteran
03-25-2010, 10:02 PM
Under UK law, deleting copyrighted data belonging to someone else is theft, if the other party has a copy of the data - which they do (even if their copy was deleted at the same time). It's also unauthorised access under the computer misuse act and fraud, of course.

That you misunderstand things so much and make so many accusations is just sad.

As many claims as you have made against Amazon, you should be grateful they are not the evil empire you think they are. Otherwise they would own everything you have and leave you with a huge judgement.

scveteran
03-25-2010, 10:09 PM
Ah, a case of it being theft where you live but not where I do.

Not sure about the USA and that would be the real issue since Amazon could only have deleted the content from US kindles since whispernet doesn't work elsewhere. Therefore it may or may not be classed as theft there depending on the law.

Cheers,
PKFFW

Not theft in the UK either. DawnFalcon thinks that everything Amazon, specifically and any large corporation in general, does is a crime. He has no real understanding of the the legal documents he looks up.

If you look through the posts, you will see this. Along with his incredible ability to argue with everyone.

scveteran
03-25-2010, 10:22 PM
it was treated like a laptop. the level of security depended upon what could be put on it. so it was acknowledged it was a mobile device, ie; could leave the premises, but as far as anyone remotely accessing the information... that wasn't an issue

As someone who was in the Army and worked with the NSA on cryptographics, I am really sure that a Kindle would not never be an official approved device to store classified material that leaves the facility, the constant watch of personel that hold the appropriate security clearance, and/or appropriate safe approved by the command.

That is not just because it doesn't have the appropriate technology to encrypt and decrypt the files. It is also because it is not TEMPEST approved.

That said, it may be your bosses allow you to use it. It still doesn't make it the official approved.

I will also admit that I have been out of the loop for years and things may have changed for the worse at the NSA and INSCOM, but I doubt it.

Edited to add our unofficial doctrine for my old unit: "In God we trust. All others we watch."

kindlekitten
03-25-2010, 10:52 PM
As someone who was in the Army and worked with the NSA on cryptographics, I am really sure that a Kindle would not never be an official approved device to store classified material that leaves the facility, the constant watch of personel that hold the appropriate security clearance, and/or appropriate safe approved by the command.

That is not just because it doesn't have the appropriate technology to encrypt and decrypt the files. It is also because it is not TEMPEST approved.

That said, it may be your bosses allow you to use it. It still doesn't make it the official approved.

I will also admit that I have been out of the loop for years and things may have changed for the worse at the NSA and INSCOM, but I doubt it.

Edited to add our unofficial doctrine for my old unit: "In God we trust. All others we watch."

I never meant to infer it was approved for classified documents. like I said, it was treated like a laptop, a mobile unsecure device. the point I was ineffectively trying to make was that the military wasn't worried about the contents being looked at by Amazon. the normal restrictions and protocols afforded any mobile device were afforded it

scveteran
03-25-2010, 11:02 PM
I never meant to infer it was approved for classified documents. like I said, it was treated like a laptop, a mobile unsecure device. the point I was ineffectively trying to make was that the military wasn't worried about the contents being looked at by Amazon. the normal restrictions and protocols afforded any mobile device were afforded it

Thank you for the clarification.

DawnFalcon
03-26-2010, 01:06 AM
Not theft in the UK either. DawnFalcon thinks that everything Amazon, specifically and any large corporation in general, does is a crime. He has no real understanding of the the legal documents he looks up.

Nope, you're just creating conspiracy theories out of thin air and attributing them to be to cover your own patent inadequacies in logic, when they're your conspiracy theories. In reality, of course, there is no conspiracy (only varying degrees of incompetence which can look the same to conspiracy-minded individuals).

I'm sure Amazon will be very interested that you consider them inherently criminal, mind you.

Also, incidentally, posting repeating as you do is extremely rude. The multi-quote option exists for a reason. Of course, you'll twist this around and whine about it...

kindlekitten
03-26-2010, 01:44 AM
Nope, you're just creating conspiracy theories out of thin air and attributing them to be to cover your own patent inadequacies in logic, when they're your conspiracy theories. In reality, of course, there is no conspiracy (only varying degrees of incompetence which can look the same to conspiracy-minded individuals).

I'm sure Amazon will be very interested that you consider them inherently criminal, mind you.

Also, incidentally, posting repeating as you do is extremely rude. The multi-quote option exists for a reason. Of course, you'll twist this around and whine about it...

some people don't know how to use it, and others have a slightly different thought process and posting style. unless someone died and made you ettiquette chief at the MR Boards, I think your rudeness epithet is a lot of pot calling the kettle black

PKFFW
03-26-2010, 04:04 AM
some people don't know how to use it, and others have a slightly different thought process and posting style. unless someone died and made you ettiquette chief at the MR Boards, I think your rudeness epithet is a lot of pot calling the kettle black
As DF has pointed out to me previously, apparently one has to go by the rules of some forum board titled "Elitist Jerks" when considering the ettiquette requirements of MR. If something is considered rude over there it seems to be DF's contention that it is also deemed rude here at MR. I'm not sure why that is but there you have it.

Apparently over at "Elitist Jerks" signing your posts is considered rude and as such, by DF's logic, that means it is also considered rude here at MR. I can only assume the same must go for not using the multi-quote function.

Cheers,
PKFFW

TGS
03-26-2010, 04:15 AM
I don't know if I've got "bragging rights" as the originator of this thread, but it's just becoming a slanging match. I'm not really in favour of censorship but I wonder if now's the time for the Mods to close it.

Patricia
03-26-2010, 08:28 AM
I don't know if I've got "bragging rights" as the originator of this thread, but it's just becoming a slanging match. I'm not really in favour of censorship but I wonder if now's the time for the Mods to close it.

OK. Thread closed, as requested.


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