There is a lot of speculation about the potential for success for failure of the Sony Reader. Let's face it, nobody really knows yet. Many of us hope for the best because we want to see e-book devices succeed. We are especially excited because the Sony Reader is the first e-book reader that has a really great display, at a somewhat reasonable price, and not only has the backing of a major electronics company, but also has an associated store with easily obtained content.

For Sony to be successful, it needs to be able to get past those that are eager to get one before it's really even introduced very much to the world. It needs to get past the rich, the tech lovers and the curious. It has to reach a base of regular people who like to read.

Experts already give four primary reasons why the Sony Reader will be a niche player and not reach the mainstream readers:

The price of $350 is a steep up-front investment when paper books cost nothing up-front.


There is no backlight


The e-ink display may be gorgeous, but page turns are slow, and it also restricts the interface functionality.


The Sony Connect store uses a DRM'd format controlled by Sony, and therefore without a huge discount on books, people will avoid the Reader.

Those are very convincing reasons on paper why success will be limited. They are hard to argue, because they are so self-evident. In fact, they are rock solid, and I don't even dispute that they will affect adoption. So why am I so upbeat and optimistic about the Reader? Simple, and here's why:

The Sony Reader provides a wonderful book reading experience that will win hearts away from paper books. Period.

I can tell you even by my limited reading opportunities already that for me there is no comparison. I can never go back. I love being able to choose the font size, and being able to get big print if my eyes are tired. I love the way it seems to have a calming effect on my eyes. I love the way I can lay it down and touch a button to turn pages, instead of having to handle that paper book and get hand cramps.

I'd rather read on this device than paper so much that for books only available at the Sony onine store, I would gladly buy DRM'd books for the opportunity to read them on the Sony Reader. And that takes into account the fact that I hate DRM'd e-books, and know they may or may not be available for me to read in the future if I switch reading platforms. But I realize that for now, it's the necessary evil if publishers are going to make the e-books available. It's not ideal, but that's basically the status quo. And until something changes significantly, it's what we live with (or protest against!)

To get that great reading experience and that compact and convenient form factor, people will find that it's worth the "evils" of DRM and prices that seem way too high. Book reading is an investment in one's self. We pay the price for golf clubs or tennis rackets or health club memberships. People are going to be a lot more willing to invest in their mental health than we give them credit for. We can complain all day that prices are too high and DRM is bad, but bottom line is that it's still a great option if the book reading experience is better.

Some will disagree vehemently with me on this, but I expect a lot of people will agree with me. It will be interesting to see, as devices start arriving, if others agree about this after using the Reader. I think that the more time one spends with the Reader, the more people will like it. It's not the sort of product that is going to be tried for a few minutes in a store and win hearts, but then disappoint them after they actually read a book. To the contrary, once they actually read a book on it, I think they will be hooked. And then the Sony Connect store is going to be like their best friend. We'll have to wait a while to see if this is true, but that's the way I see it.

Sony will ultimately have to share the market to some degree with competitors, but the opportunity is there for them to dominate in this new product category. Let's see if they can.

There will always be a thousand reasons why the Sony Reader will fail. And there will be just as many reasons that the device isn't perfect. But the simple bottom line is that the quality of the book reading experience will trump them all. Watch and see!

Bob are you sponsored by Sony per post you make ? :wink:

mori, no team member @ MobileRead is sponsored by anyone, you have my word.

But I admit, we are very excited about the Reader.

To get that great reading experience and that compact and convenient form factor, people will find that it's worth the "evils" of DRM and prices that seem way too high. Book reading is an investment in one's self. We pay the price for golf clubs or tennis rackets or health club memberships. People are going to be a lot more willing to invest in their mental health than we give them credit for. We can complain all day that prices are too high and DRM is bad, but bottom line is that it's still a great option if the book reading experience is better.

You seem to be greatly confused about what "reading experience" is. So I'll help set you straight. ;)

The reason Copyright exists is that reproducing the value of books is very easy - because the value of books has nothing to do with the physical-ness of the book. The value of books is in the words, and the ideas those words represent. Books are really nothing more than an efficient communications medium for transmitting ideas from an author to someone else.

An awful pBook costs $8. A great pBook costs $8. (Based on the paperback that's sitting here on my desk.) I can easily argue that the great book offered me a much better reading experience than the awful book, yet the costs of both books are the same. The price of pBooks is based on physical costs rather than the value of the words contained inside.

So, I would argue that there are 2 components to the "reading experience":
1. The physical-ness (i.e. how easy it is to transport, how big the font is, etc.)
2. The words and ideas.

The physical-ness of the reading experience is why some people paid $700 for an iLiad. It's the reason others paid $350 for a Sony reader.

But it's not a reason to pay paper-price for an eBook.

When I buy an eBook, I am paying for words and ideas. Period. All physical costs are gone.

Therefore there is no justification whatsoever for an eBook to be the same cost (or more) of a pBook. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch.
eBooks should cost 50% of the price of an pBook, maximum - and only for eBooks that contain valuable words and ideas.

When DRM is involved, we are talking about renting access to those words and ideas for a limited time. I can get that today by joining a library that supports eBooks and renting those words and ideas for free. So the value of a DRM eBook is, maximum, $1 - again, only for those eBooks that contain valuable words and ideas.

Companies need to offer value. When they don't, consumers look for alternatives. Sometimes those alternatives are not legal. The current crop of DRM eBooks do not offer value. The success of those businesses so far simply prove that P.T. Barnum was right: There is a sucker born every minute.

Amen to that, rlauzon!

As Alex said about being paid by Sony for posting - of course not. But my enthusiasm has obviously exploded exponentially based on playing with the actual device and reading on it. Mori is right on. I love it and it shows! It's the first e-ink device I've read on, and it's the only one so far in the U.S. that has the backing and infrastructure (including the store) that Sony offers. It's expensive, but affordable. It's a great size. And it's wonderful to use. I like the Sony team and their enthusiasm, I like the hardware, I love the screen, and I think it's the only e-ink device so far with a chance to work for mainstream readers. So I guess everyone will just have to accept my enthusiasm. But I think it's about the most exciting news to ever hit the e-book world!

And while the common and frequent complaints about DRM are completely valid, I stand by my belief that the Sony Reader is such a great reading experience that people will put up with the evils of DRM to get e-books for it. Will the world agree? I can't wait to find out! :)

You seem to be greatly confused about what "reading experience" is. So I'll help set you straight. ;)

The reason Copyright exists is that reproducing the value of books is very easy - because the value of books has nothing to do with the physical-ness of the book. The value of books is in the words, and the ideas those words represent. Books are really nothing more than an efficient communications medium for transmitting ideas from an author to someone else.
...


I couldn't agree more with your words... but you see... what will happen at least in the short term will be the same as with music... in the end you'll pay as much (or considering that nowadays a 18 euros cd either comes with double disc or a DVD, sometimes more) money for a digital music as you paid for the physical CD... Why? Well, Music industries usually argues that since you can get to choose single track you should pay more per track... but since thay charge the same for the whole cd in digital form the correct argument is that they feel a digital copy offers value comparing to CD so they charge more... In creativity (specially in a cartel industry) don't compete economicaly thus they don't need to lower the price for people to buy their stuff... they can even charge more... but in the end if customers feel like they are being ripped-off they'll try to get what they want some other way.

I think that Sony eReader does have potencial... it is a bit more expensive than what I would pay for... (if it would cost 250-300 USD I would buy right away) but what will happen is like what happen with PSP: people will circunvent their drm protection and run their own content.

The lack of backlight in Sony eReader might sound a stupid thing but I believe eReader is trying to appeal for normal people who don't usually read ebooks on screens and those people reads with the light of the room.. even I try to have a small light behind me to read with my palm.

As Alex said about being paid by Sony for posting - of course not. But my enthusiasm has obviously exploded exponentially based on playing with the actual device and reading on it. Mori is right on. I love it and it shows! It's the first e-ink device I've read on, and it's the only one so far in the U.S. that has the backing and infrastructure (including the store) that Sony offers. It's expensive, but affordable. It's a great size. And it's wonderful to use. I like the Sony team and their enthusiasm, I like the hardware, I love the screen, and I think it's the only e-ink device so far with a chance to work for mainstream readers. So I guess everyone will just have to accept my enthusiasm. But I think it's about the most exciting news to ever hit the e-book world!


Aye I agree the Sony Readers sounds like it was made in heaven :wink: but it would still be nice to get some _objective_ news about it, otherwise I'll just go read some Sony propaganda :sleepy:

Anyway I am curious for a review of somebody who has both devices and compares them.

Any iLiad owner in the US that ordered one ?

And while the common and frequent complaints about DRM are completely valid, I stand by my belief that the Sony Reader is such a great reading experience that people will put up with the evils of DRM to get e-books for it. Will the world agree? I can't wait to find out! :)

That's probably true, in the short term. After all, eReader and Fictionwise sell DRM eBooks and seeing as how they still exist and still sell those, people must be buying them. Even iTunes is still selling music.

It takes time and it takes experience to see how bad DRM is and it's only a matter of time before people recognize that they are getting screwed.

The lack of backlight in Sony eReader might sound a stupid thing but I believe eReader is trying to appeal for normal people who don't usually read ebooks on screens and those people reads with the light of the room.. even I try to have a small light behind me to read with my palm.

Having used my iLiad for some time now to read eBooks, I can speak from experience that a backlight for an eInk device is useless. If you need a booklight, you can use the same one that exist for physical books.

Aye I agree the Sony Readers sounds like it was made in heaven :wink: but it would still be nice to get some _objective_ news about it, otherwise I'll just go read some Sony propaganda :sleepy:

Anyway I am curious for a review of somebody who has both devices and compares them.

Any iLiad owner in the US that ordered one ?

I agree. Right now, I am waiting to see the reviews and to actually play with one in a store before seeing if it will work better than my iLiad.

Because of the iLiad, I think that eInk is the technology that will make eBook readers successful. Now it's a matter of price/features/form-factor and which company can make the best unit.

Aye I agree the Sony Readers sounds like it was made in heaven :wink: but it would still be nice to get some _objective_ news about it, otherwise I'll just go read some Sony propagandaOuch! I would like to think my comments are viewed as objective, but enthusiastic. Maybe too enthusiastic. I'm not sure. But for variety, we have threads with lots of links to Sony articles, both slamming it and praising it. If I didn't like it, I would certainly tell you. And I think you will find many of its weaknesses talked about in my writing also.

My feeling, however, is that many people are focusing so much on the little things that they are missing the big picture and the potential for a big success. I'm sure a lot of people did the same thing when giving all the reasons mp3 players would be a niche product and never catch on. Will the Sony Reader catch on? I guess we just don't know yet.

But in a very few days, we will see an abundance of independent views by real users. Enthusiastic and nonchalant, big fans and Reader haters... it will all be revealed in the pages of MobileRead very soon!

I agree that once you have an ebook reader that you love, going back to paper is hard, since the ebook reader gives you so much. The problem for mainstream adoption is and will always still be content and Sony reader makes it worse by adding one more drm cripple to the mix.

I am yet undecided if to get one since I am very happy with my 2 readers and I care a lot about the 3 issues that Sony has (lack of built in light, slow navigation, big enough to be not pocketable the way my Nokia is), but I will try one at a store nearby.

One thing I know is that under any circumstances I will not buy a drm bbeb book from their store, the way I never bought a drm imp book from ebookwise and I have over 800 unique books in my Ebookwise library for example.

Liviu

We are hearing many of the same complaints (from the early adopters) that we heard about the iPod before it was introduced. On paper it looked no better than other products of the era (Creative Nomad?), and according to some was going to fail because it was missing some "critical" features like wireless.

I feel like the Sony Reader is a good compromise (compared to the Illiad which is its only real competitor at the moment), much like the iPod was. Certain early adopters have a picture of what the perfect reader is (Web browser, wireless, backlight, etc) that in reality does not make a difference to the book buying market at large.

They are looking for something that allows them to read books, and generally just has to be better than a book in order to beat expectations. Books obviously do not have backlights, they take several seconds to turn a page (which makes noise, and can wake up a sleeping significant other), and can be big and bulky and thus annoying to take on long trips and read in bed. Of course they don't need batteries, are generally way cheaper than $350, and can be resold. But the reality is that the price will come way down, so that will be solved (for the hardware at least). And Sony really seems to have "solved" the battery issue already. Even if it's only half as good as they say (7500 page flips) I might not charge for weeks. This to me (besides the DRM issue) is the biggest problem with the Illiad. Having to charge every 8 or so hours is just not going to work for something that's supposed to replace a book.

Will the Sony Reader be the new iPod or Nomad for the eBook world? Or will it be another Newton, to far ahead of it's time to catch on?

I was lucky enough to order one the second I saw they were available (well right after I read Bob's review!), and one is currently on it's way to me, so hopefully by next week some time I will have a much better idea of how good this device actually is.

Hi Bob

This is a strange statement~

"The Sony Reader provides a wonderful book reading experience that will win hearts away from paper books. Period."

These devices, iliad and Sony, give a more booklike experience and have the advantage of storage ... but winning hearts because of the experience? As the owner of an Iliad I haven't, nor will I, stop reading paper books which, on the whole, are a better experience (you can speed read across pages, you can flutter the pages and read extracts to find a section, they generally don't break when you drop them etc ...)

These devices won't sell by winning hearts, but by winning minds.

...it would still be nice to get some _objective_ news about it, otherwise I'll just go read some Sony propagandaFair warning. <rant>

Allright, see, now that offends me.

I was there in San Diego too, and I can tell you that to the best of my recollection, and observations, nothing Bob has said about the Reader or its function was in any way innaccurate or slanted.

And no, I don't work for Sony either.

A little background on me -- my first major in college was journalism. A good chunk of the reason I left it was because I was sick of being around all those would be "reporters" who were really out to be editorialists, who couldn't give a straight statement about something they had an opinion on to save their lives.

The things he and I have said about the experience are our opinions, clearly framed as such.

I, and I believe Bob too, have both been as straight as we knew how to be about both the good and the bad things we saw. Is it our fault that Sony seems to have gotten more right than wrong with this device? Should we make up bad stuff just to preserve an inaccurate perception of "balance?"

I refuse to do such a thing. Just like I won't make up good stuff either. Period.

I don't own an iLiad, but I have seen one of the devices, and got to spend about 30~45 minutes with it. Something I repeatedly referred to in my own write-up specifically to give a feel for how they compared. Paul Meows (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7779) now has both devices in his possesion, I hope he'll be sharing some longer-term experiences than I was able to collect. I look forward to seeing them.

I care a lot more for this community than for any product, and I feel an obligation to be as accurate and objective as I can even when I'm trying to be persuasive -- and I'm not even an Editor like Bob is. Further, I can assure you I was not in persuasive mode when writing up my review.

It's up to you. If you want to discount everything we say as slanted just because we found that Sony did a good job, that's your perogative. Yes a lot of that perception is unavoidably subjective, but we put a whole lot of effort into giving you as full an account of what that perception was based on so that you could decide for yourself if those things were important to you. We didn't just say, "oh what a wonderful product!" We told you specifically, in great detail, what we liked and didn't like about it. If that doesn't qualify as objective, then I don't know what would.

Okay, deep breath. </rant> :grin:

@mariodrss: you mentioned that the price seeme about $50-100 too high to you ... does the $50 credit with the Connect Store offset that any in your opinion? I don't figure it ought to be worth a full $50 worth of consideration, as you'd mostly spend it on DRM'd BBeB books (unless you can use it on accessories too, hmmm), but I was curious if it made any difference to you.

You also mentioned circumventing the DRM -- you don't have to circumvent the DRM to run your own content, just use RTF, PDF, TXT.... :smile:


@pdam: I think what Bob was trying to say is that the experience of reading on the Reader is such that folks won't mind adding it to their reading tools, won't insist on always reading paper, that is.

They should use the same niche market Apple used two decades ago: university. Very jesuitic.

I've been following the advent of this new reader off-line for a little while.

I'm very excited about the new eInk readers and have been ever since I'd heard about the new technology some years ago.

My main attraction is being able to get technical documents which are unavailble in paper form. Without the reader, I must either rely on a monitor or print it out. Both options are not attractive to me. The addition of being able to put copyrighted and public domain books on the reader is a real bonus for me.

Many of the so-called "Experts" who poo-poo the lack of backlight are unaware of the fact that reflected light is much easier on the eyes than direct light. I for one do NOT want a back light, my eyes are poor and need all the help they can get.

thanks for reading so far!

I did not expect Sony to run out of Readers so soon, and for so long. ISTR that some high suit in Sony US said they were planning to be the iPod of ebooks, with a similar market share. And now they can only start with 130 Readers? Sony, Sony, Sony. You can get ahead of your rivals in the ebook market, but you don't have enough units. There's the XBOX 360 from last year, the Wii will be here soon, and you get your PS3 out the last, and the more expensive one, and with nowhere near enough units. You clearly like to shoot yourself in the foot. And now you don't let non-US residents buy your Reader. Don't tell me it's copyright restrictions, because that's the ebooks, not the hardware itself.

I have been putting my reading for months, and just can't take it any longer. I have just placed a €150 order in Amazon UK; 1 DVD (Jim Henson pack) and a whole lotta pbooks. That's money Sony ain't seeing from me, because it looks like they will not let me buy ebooks from their Connect Store, as I am a filthy foreigner.

Don't get me wrong, I will buy the Reader sooner rather than later, one way or the other, but buying ebooks would be just too difficult from over here. What shall I do? I will buy the pbooks (more dead trees) and get the ebooks versions by my own means. If that's illegal, I don't care. I have paid for them, so I will bloody well read them wherever I wanna. And you can bite my shiny-- Well, you get the picture.

I would rather have a cheap ebook renting/subscription service (inspired in a little thing called "Library"), than pay for a book I will likely only read once. That's the $1 book rlauzon so heartily mentions. When I want to own a book, then I can pay as much as 50% the value of the pbook, but that's all. It's not only paper cost we're cutting down here: there's printing, distributing, middle man, etc. The current ebook model is simply stupid, and I am not biting the bait.

So, to sum up. Yes, the Reader looks perfect to me (if there's backlighting, there's eye stress, so no backlighting thanks), apart from the fact that they won't let me buy one. No, I don't care about DRM'ed ebooks.

And please don't say editorialists are not objective. There's news, and there's editorials. Editorials are someone's opinion. They are not biased, they just have an opinion. So kudos to Bob and the rest of the editorialists (including NatCh) for all the hard work.

(...)

Will the Sony Reader be the new iPod or Nomad for the eBook world? Or will it be another Newton, to far ahead of it's time to catch on?

(...)

Hmm... someone said Newton? :-D

IMHO there is not much chaces that any e-item for reading book will win a real mainstream following, if with mainstream one mean non-tech reader. This have nothing to do with the quality of the ereader technology, but is something related to a mild form of feticism of the mainstream pbook reader. As we geek take pride in our gadgets, almost any non tech pbook reader I spoke, even recognizing the pratical value of the ebooks, said that s/he will never change the physical experience of using a pbook: the smell and the feeling of the paper, and so on.

Obviously I have only a very partial statistic: I'm in Italy, not exactly the spear head of new consumer tech adoption... ;-)

About the eInk vs LCD issue, I read from eReader by almost 12 years: I started with my first Newton (a Sharp ExpertPad...), passed trough the Newton MP 100/110/120/130/2000/2100, the RocketBook (still have it perfectly functioning, first model out... :-) and now use mainly a Clié nx80v for .txt and .pdb files and a iPaq 5450 for .lit stuff. I plan to excanghe the Clié for a Tungsten T3, but I will avoid for now any eink reader. Is not a question of prices: even if the ILiad price is crazy in my opinion, the Sony Reader is almost there. The point is that at the age of 45 a reader without the backlighting is useless for me.

And please don't say editorialists are not objective. There's news, and there's editorials. Editorials are someone's opinion. They are not biased, they just have an opinion. So kudos to Bob and the rest of the editorialists (including NatCh) for all the hard work.Yes, but there's a huge difference between and editorialist giving his opinion in an editorial, and a nominal reporter giving his opinion and billing it as news.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with editorializing (and didn't mean to suggest otherwise :smile: ). But there is something wrong with trying to pretend that editorializing is reporting, it's inherently dishonest. :shrug:

A review necessarily includes some subjective stuff, as it's trying to put the facts in a graspable context, but it shouldn't be all subjective. :grin:

Thanks everyone for all the support and encouragement. I appreciate it. :)

Now on to the business at hand... as your devices start showing up, don't forget to tell us if you think the Sony Reader is going to be a hit or a dud!

"I feel like the Sony Reader is a good compromise (compared to the Illiad which is its only real competitor at the moment), much like the iPod was."

Certainly people don't need perfect to make a product successful, they just need "good enough", which is a horribly subjective judgement. For what I want, the iPod is good enough; for some music purchases the iTunes store, DRM and all, is good enough. Obviously rlauzon would disagree with the judgement.

Paper media will not be replaced, it will be supplemented, in the same way that radio didn't destroy movies, television didn't destroy radio, cable didn't destroy television, et al.

However, and this is a big however, the iPod can be successfully used by any consumer without ever buying a single track from the iTunes store. To use the Sony Reader that is going to be a lot harder, particularly without any native html support.

I'd also like to point out that in spite Apple's ridiculous market share with the iPod, there are competing products from other manufacturers that consumers can choose from, and if you are ripping your own CDs you can easily make those files compatible with all those other devices...except Sony's original DMP :) But what have the early adopters already complained about? No LIT, Palm, MobiPocket, whatever support. And what happens in four years when Sony decides to abandon the Reader because it wants to focus on core profitable markets? You won't be copying those BeB files to your Iliad, that's for sure.

This is not a market that already exists begging for product. This is a market that is going to have to be created and carefully nurtured over a long period of time, but manufacturers just don't seem to have that kind of patience anymore. Maybe the Reader will be the next iPod, maybe it will be the next MiniDisc. It is too early to tell.

Bob, thanks for your amazing coverage of the Sony Reader.

I share your general optimism.

For me personally, I can't say if I "need" the Sony Reader. I already have ebookwise and fbreader on 770, and although I agree it's a great step forward, I have to wonder whether there is better ebook software out there to be matched with suitable hardware. I'm inclined to want to wait until the open source community build some nice tools for content creation before I upgrade.

Also I was surprised to hear that navigation is not through touchscreen but buttons. Ah, shucks!

Wouldn't it be nice if a firmware flash could provide better native support for other formats?

I remain flabbergasted that jinke and Amazon haven't announced dates for their own hardware devices to come out. Buying an ebook reader is like buying a car. You don't do it every year, so if you can hold off for a few months until the TNBT (the next big thing) comes out, sometimes that can pay dividends. Are the Amazon or jinke devices coming out by Christmas? It would be nice to get a clearer idea.

Iffy RSS support is a major limitation for me. (although I haven't heard that either amazon or jinke is offering that either)

I vote for Bob to take the trip to Tianjin to preview the V2 :)

rj

Amazon hasn't officially admitted working on a reader at all. Engadget snaked that out of the FCC files. :grin:

I doubt they'll be out any time soon.

Jinke doesn't seem to be saying much of anything lately. :(

I too don't understand the problem regarding back lighting. After staring at a computer screen for 8 hours every day the last thing I want is yet another active display. If the existing lamps have been doing a fine job for pBooks then they'll provide fine light for eBooks as well. What is the big deal????

HTML and unlimited RSS support will be added at some point; they'd be crazy not to do it. The reader may not be suitable for general web surfing. However there is a lot of static web content that the reader can display just fine. I am sure it is just a matter of figuring out how to handle dynamic content (animated GIFs, Flash, applets, etc.)

Actually the major problem I have is the power supply. I am surprised that no one seems to be bothered by batteries which are sealed inside and cannot be replaced (easily)!?!?!? LiIon battery lifespan is based on a combination of time and usage. Even if a battery is charged/maintained properly and never used it would still fail after 10ish years (well it is hard to say exactly). That means that Sony Reader has an upper lifespan limit of about 10 years. Perhaps it may continue to function with a cable, but clearly the main utility is in the cable-less mode powered by battery.

Perhaps by the someone will come up with instructions on how to open the reader and replace the battery (similar to the current Palms), but it will be tricky and expensive. Spending $350 for a device that will be used for 20-30 years is much easier to justify than for one which will last no more than 10 years.

Therefore, I will purchase V2 or V3 when it comes with the usual AA batteries compartment that enables easy replacement of batteries as they become too old. I would also prefer a much greater builtin memory capacity as I'd like to load a larger book collection.

Oh, and here is another reason why Sony Reader will be successful.

Sony Reader with an expansion card can manage say 1-2K books. Calculate the amount of money spent on book shelves plus the amount of time and effort to assemble/install book shelves plus the amount of space wasted for storage of those 1-2K books. I am guessing the total will be at least $350, maybe more.

Now consider the easy and convenience of locating and displaying a book from this collection using the reader as opposed to finding it on a book shelf. Also consider the convenience of carrying the collection with you to cottage, summer vacation, even a commute to work, as opposed to locating, pulling out of shelves and carrying around pBooks.

This can be construed as a biased perspective. Nevertheless, it is a perfectly valid and frequently occuring scenario. There will be times when I'll pick up 1-2 small paperbacks and take them to the beach instead of the reader. Sure. Still more often I'd prefer to have the collection readily available most of the time.

I'll be patient for Sony to fix the bugs and will purchase one thereafter.

@Bob Russell: don't forget to tell us if you think the Sony Reader is going to be a hit or a dud!

I think it will be more successfull then previous generation of eReaders. It will get more interest and publicity, and hopefully will make more people aware of the eBooks in general.

I think Sony needs to release Letter/A4 sized model for techie ppl, just because most of the current PDFs are formatted to that size. Reflowing is not 100% solution, untill tagged PDFs created properly. Some rudementary search functionality is also needed. Could be priced at $499 level.

The eReaders functionality, imho, should still be very limited to keep battery life and weight/size under control. For advanced features there are always tablets and laptops.

What Sony can do with current model is to add Unicode support, improve CONNECT software for eazier RSS/HTML conversion, add more formats (like CHM for example).

Personally, I don't think backlighting is needed. But all future eReaders should come with warning that reading under bad lighting conditions will ruin ones eyesight. May be even have light level sensor built in to warn that there is not enough ambient light :)

Something along those lines :)

Fictionwise sell DRM eBooks and seeing as how they still exist and still sell those, people must be buying them.

I wrote Fictionwise once and asked why a series of ebooks was not available all in Microsoft Reader LIT Format? Book 1 was MSReader, Book 2 was Adobe DRM and Book 3 was MSReader.

Their reply was that they sold whatever the publisher gave them, even if it didn't seem to make sense.

Don't sell some of the ebooks the publisher gave you and you could expect the publisher to stop sending you titles.

Such is the power of the publishers.

Personally, I don't think backlighting is needed. But all future eReaders should come with warning that reading under bad lighting conditions will ruin ones eyesight. May be even have light level sensor built in to warn that there is not enough ambient light :)

Amen! :D Those "what, no backlight!?" comments just kill me. :p

Me too :-) Always seems such a pointless comment.

Spending $350 for a device that will be used for 20-30 years is much easier to justify than for one which will last no more than 10 years.
Therefore, I will purchase V2 or V3 when it comes with the usual AA batteries compartment that enables easy replacement of batteries as they become too old.


Maybe I am too young (24), but I do not own a single gadget older than, say, 5 years. Anything older than 3 years, I give to my dad. My music player and cell phone are from last year, my camera and PC are from this year...
So, regarding user-replaceable batteries, I think it will be near impossible finding a suitable battery in 10 years. Plus, Ion-Lithium batteries discharge after a few years, so it's no use buying many now for later use. Our capitalist world is like that, it is easier and cheaper buying a new one, than trying to repair / maintain an old one. :shrug:

Let me address the backlight issue as 42 readers of the 60 some who responded on my blog wanted a backlight. We aren't technophiles but we are avid readers. For those who don't know, romance ebooks are currently the most downloaded genre. Look at any ebookstore for the bestsellers. At least half will be romances. Why is that? Because romance readers, on average, buy at least 5 books a month and sometimes up to 20.

We primarily read mass market titles and we are used to carry these things around everywhere we go. The need for a backlight or some integrated light source comes from the fact that we often read in lowlight situations. During movies with our kids, in the car (while someone else is driving of course), in bed with our SOs who frequently complain about the light (hence the huge aftermarket business of booklights).

When moving to a $350.00 ebook reader, the manufacturer has to better the reading experience. It cannot be an even trade. The backlight/integrated light source is something that is important to readers. It is not enough to say that the resolution is as good as paper. So what? I'll buy paper then and use my booklight or lamp. For one thing, you have to justify the cost issue. Romance readers are huge swap, ubs users so they are used to buying their 5-20 books with half of them being 50% off. Second, you have to make it easy as pie. Meaning, that you shouldn't have to convert a file 3 times in order to make it readable on Sony's ebook reader. Alot of ebooks today are sold by epublishers such as Ellora's Cave or Samhain. They don't currently offer their books in BBeB format so customers won't be able to view their existing content or they will have to go through a rigorous conversion methods to get their content on the BBeB.


I am pretty sure that the average reader will be content with their paper hardcovers and paperbacks. It's the AVID reader who is likely to buy this product and it is the AVID reader, not the techno geek loving reader (like me), who needs to fall in love with this product for it to be successful.

@da_jane: Let me address the backlight issue as 42 readers of the 60 some who responded on my blog wanted a backlight

What Sony should have done is to include customized LightWedge (or similar) book light (for free!) and nice case (for free!) to fit both reader and the light. It would solve issues with reading in bad light condition. Making backlight built-in, if possible at all, will ruin battery life, imho.

Here is more info on LightWedge system:
(The light can run for 40 hours on four AAA batteries.)
Home Page (http://www.lightwedge.com/), How it works (http://www.lightwedge.com/how.html), Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/LightWedge-Reading-Light/dp/0641077491), Think Geek (http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/backtoschool/5cf2/)

Disclaimer: I don't work for or being paid by LightWedge :)

It's the AVID reader who is likely to buy this product and it is the AVID reader, not the techno geek loving reader (like me), who needs to fall in love with this product for it to be successful.

This sums it up to me. Most of us reading the forum are pretty comfortable with the idea of reading an e-book and the effort it can take to get a book into a format that can be loaded onto our reader. For me it's been various PDAs for the last 5 years or so. If I can't get it to text I don't read it. I have not had to resort to reading a paper book yet so no worries for geeks like me who are willing to do what it takes to get content. This is not going to work for the public at large.

The ability to share content is important as well. The one thing I miss more than anything due to my switch to using a PDA to read is swapping books with my father. He and I like the same kinds of books and when one of us likes a book it's great to share. Now if I really like a book I have to buy him the paper copy if I want to share. There is hope that the Sony Reader will make a believer out of him but to have to share the same connect store account in order to share books is pushing things (whose credit card will be on the account? How do we split up costs? ...). I guess if I still lived at home it would be easy but that was over 20 years ago... Hopefully there will be an evolution to allowing sharing to work in a fair manor.

Being a PDA reader whose wife goes to sleep before me, the ability to read in the dark without bothering her is a big deal to me. It is something I have now that I'll have to recreate with a clip on light or something. I am confident that I will be able to solve the problem and still have a better reading experience than my eye burning, sucks to read outside PDA gives me. That said I really don't think it's a big deal to paper book readers since they don't have expereince with backlighting. For the Sony Reader to be successful it's the paper readers that are going to need to be converted not us "techno geeks" who have already drunk the cool aid.

I'm really not sure if I think the Sony Reader will be successful. I know I want it to be. I am very sure that it will be successful for my usage. If I can get my wife to use it then it will be a hit for sure. So far she laughs at me for even suggesting that she would want to use it over a paper book. She loves her iPod though :shy:

...customers won't be able to view their existing content or they will have to go through a rigorous conversion methods to get their content on the BBeB.Why? they can stop at RTF and have done with it. :grin:

What Sony should have done is to include customized LightWedge (or similar) book light (for free!) and nice case (for free!) to fit both reader and the light.I mentioned in my review (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7713) that Sony tried to talk lightwedge into making a size for the Reader, LW wants to wait 'til they see Reader sales to justify their (LW's) investment. :shrug:

They did say that the LW is a really excellent lighting device for the Reader, though ... and you don't have to move it for every page turn like you would with a paper book. :huh:

Nathan,

I remember that part of your review, but I forgot what book light maker you've mentioned :)

I mentioned in my review (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7713) that Sony tried to talk lightwedge into making a size for the Reader, LW wants to wait 'til they see Reader sales to justify their (LW's) investment. :shrug:

They did say that the LW is a really excellent lighting device for the Reader, though ... and you don't have to move it for every page turn like you would with a paper book. :huh:

One more reason to hope the Sony Reader is successful! I have a $10 clip on light on order but the LW would be so much better. It would be on my Christmas list if it is created :xmas:

I predict lots of very cool threads talking about the best ways to light things up!

I was about to rant a little, but da jane said most of what I was going to say.

People keep talking about the evils of a "backlight", but that is not what is needed, it is simply a "built-in" light.

For $350, people do not expect to have buy extra things, and aside from the financial aspect of it, they especially do not want to have a temporary, improvised light hanging off the thing that may not transport in the same case. I also do not want to have to change the batteries of a book light, or to have to carry a spare set of batteries for it (which would be 4 batteries for the light referred to in the post above). :(

I can guarantee that the reason there is not a built-in light is hysteria over "battery life". This is really foolish as people expect to put their cell phone and/or PDA in a charger every night, not to mention plugging in their laptop. As long as the battery lasts a full day or two of use, that's enough.

We are talking one LED bulb, after all - no engineering needed. Every IBM Thinkpad laptop for the last 6 years has had an LED bulb bult-in to the top of the LCD panel that shines on the keyboard for use in dark situations. It works great and barely affects the battery life.

PS I have not seen an e-ink display yet, but a review of the Sony Reader claims that it is gray rather than white, and that lack of contrast, combined with the ghosting (however toned down) makes the e-ink display still not ready for "prime time".

Irregardless of that, I think that the only question to be answered in the future is whether a second generation Sony Reader will be produced that a) corrects the criticisms, and b) has a list price of $199 or less.
the quality of the book reading experience will trump them all.
But how many people will ever see the Sony Reader screen ?

The other problem is that it seems likely that the concept of reading a full length book will gradually fade out before books go digital. It came to my attention recently that many high schoolers skim books - even pleasure reading like Harry Potter - rather than read every word cover to cover. It's not an exagerrated cliche to say that the world is now a place of short attention spans and flash over substance.

If I had to predict, I would say that in 15 years, an author will be someone who writes for a online magazine.

As such, a second generation Nokia 770 with a faster processor and more memory may be more successful even than a second generation Sony Reader.

Maybe I am too young (24), but I do not own a single gadget older than, say, 5 years. Anything older than 3 years, I give to my dad. My music player and cell phone are from last year, my camera and PC are from this year...
So, regarding user-replaceable batteries, I think it will be near impossible finding a suitable battery in 10 years. Plus, Ion-Lithium batteries discharge after a few years, so it's no use buying many now for later use. Our capitalist world is like that, it is easier and cheaper buying a new one, than trying to repair / maintain an old one. :shrug:

Yeah, you are too young ;)

I just bought a new notebook PC. Do you know how much time and effort it takes to set it up? Granted a reader is much simpler gizmo. Still there are different eBook formats and moving them to a new reader in 5 years may be a lot of hassle. Besides I suspect that a reader in 5-10 years will be still in a good shape, so I'd hate to throw it away just because of batteries.

Regarding LiIon, that is my point. Switch to standard AA NiMh batteries that will be around for a very long time and you no longer have to worry about finding the right LiIon pack. They are sold everywhere, so even without a charger you can always find disposable AAs.

I do wonder just how easy/difficult it will be to transfer different eBook formats to a new device in 5-10 years, either from Sony or another company.
If it used AAs, then at least I'd have a choice to switch or stay with the old reader.

Yeah, you are too young ;)

Hey, thanks, that is what I all wanted to hear! It makes me happy! :baby:

Anyway, I got my first PC when I was 12, I bought my first discman when I was 17 (after at least 2 walkmans). It's not that I have buying gadgets these last years, it's that I have always invested a lot of my money (well, before, a lot of my presents) in gadgets.

Regarding ebook formats, as far as I care, there are only RTF (and DOC and ODT if you must), HTM, TXT and PDF. Those will stay for some time, and those will be the ones I will be using, thanks.

Regarding batteries, that's the status quo. If you can just recharge your gadget as easy as that, you will not buy a new one, and that's not good for the market.

I want the Reader to be a success and I will do everything I can to help the hardware, if they let me. But I am not interested in DRM'ed ebooks. It's happenning more and more these days in Europe, folks are more interested in media readers than in the media itself. The Government is charging us for media storage (and printers, and Internet connections), too, just in case we try something sneaky.

So, I will keep buying pbooks and then connecting to the IRC to get them in my reader.

LThe need for a backlight or some integrated light source comes from the fact that we often read in lowlight situations. During movies with our kids, in the car (while someone else is driving of course), in bed with our SOs who frequently complain about the light (hence the huge aftermarket business of booklights).

I agree with da_jane in part. Also for such reading, the size (that can fit into a shirt pocket) is important for that type of reading whenever you get a moment.

That said, I am anxiously awaiting my Sony Reader so I can have 1) a larger screen, & 2) be able to read in bright sunlight.

For me an ideal reader would have all three characteristics, a light, small size, large screen that can be read in sublught. How about a roll up scroll type screen that would fit in a pocket, roll out to a nice size with optional light? :scholar:

Therefore there is no justification whatsoever for an eBook to be the same cost (or more) of a pBook. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

Did you not read what he had to say? People will pay for a better physical experience. If the above were true then no one would ever buy, say, expensive stereo speakers. After all, the content is the same on cheap speakers, no?

But music is much easier to listen to on good speakers and reading may well be much more pleasant on an ereader than with a paper book. Anyone who has tried to spend hours holding a heavy hardcover should realize this.

Anyone who has tried to spend hours holding a heavy hardcover should realize this.

Hey, maybe I will finally be able to read TLOTR! If the Reader can make me do that, then there is no limit! :smug2:

People keep talking about the evils of a "backlight", but that is not what is needed, it is simply a "built-in" light.

For $350, people do not expect to have buy extra things, and aside from the financial aspect of it, they especially do not want to have a temporary, improvised light hanging off the thing that may not transport in the same case. I also do not want to have to change the batteries of a book light, or to have to carry a spare set of batteries for it (which would be 4 batteries for the light referred to in the post above). :( Okay, now that's a point I don't dispute. I don't find it as compelling as you or others may, but I agree that it is an issue that has to be decided by potential buyers.

I can guarantee that the reason there is not a built-in light is hysteria over "battery life". This is really foolish as people expect to put their cell phone and/or PDA in a charger every night, not to mention plugging in their laptop. As long as the battery lasts a full day or two of use, that's enough.I've done a lot of reading on my Pilot, it's really annoying to have to wait for it to recharge so I can read more, or to strangle on the charging cord. I submit that a Reader isn't like a cell or PDA that gets used in relatively short spurts, and can be done without for a couple of hours while it charges with no loss of usefullness. It's more like, well, a book. If you get to the climax of a book, you don't want to stop and charge the rascal for a couple of hours before you find out what happens next! I expect to have to figure out when the best times to charge my Reader are (like when I'm going somewhere for a couple-three hours that I'm not going to be reading), and remember to plug it in. But that's a far cry from having to charge it on a daily basis, and it's a lot more of an issue to me than not having a built in light. Another thing folks will have to sort out for themselves. :shrug:

PS I have not seen an e-ink display yet, but a review of the Sony Reader claims that it is gray rather than white, and that lack of contrast, combined with the ghosting (however toned down) makes the e-ink display still not ready for "prime time".

Ghosting on e-ink is roughly equivalent to ghosting on a paper page, so I'd say it's as ready for prime time in that regard as paper is. :grin:

Seriously, though, I recall that the ghosting is worse after an image has been displayed for a while, but reduces to almost gone after a few page turns. Kind of an enertia effect, I guess.

But how many people will ever see the Sony Reader screen ?As many people as I can show it to, speaking for myself. :grin:

Several folks have implied that all (or most, or many) of the costs inherent in pbooks go away with ebooks. I would dispute that. Don't get me wrong, I think ebooks should be less expensive than they are now. But costs don't go away. Some costs are holdovers, some are new (this is not an exhaustive list):


author payment
publisher payment (this one might be the one that should go down)
bandwidth cost for the connect store (they pay for every byte we download)
backup costs - we want these things available for years, and I would get mad if I suddenly couldn't download books I bought - and the disk storage and backup costs are not negligible
computers to host the site
administrators to run the site
programmers to write the software for the site (and the ones who are writing the stuff for the Sony Connect Reader stuff need to be paid less - that software reeks!)


I'm sure I'm missing some, but this should make the point that the brick-and-mortar costs and the paper/binding costs do not simply go away - they get shifted to other costs so other people can take their cut. Electrons might not cost anything, but the electron support network does.

Several folks have implied that all (or most, or many) of the costs inherent in pbooks go away with ebooks.

It's not an implication. It's fact.


author payment - With paper books, that's $1 per book.
publisher payment (this one might be the one that should go down) - Since publishers no longer have value, this payment goes away.
bandwidth cost for the connect store (they pay for every byte we download) - Spread out over all the books sold, this cost is small. How much bandwidth does Google take up? And they only make money from Ads.
backup costs - we want these things available for years, and I would get mad if I suddenly couldn't download books I bought - and the disk storage and backup costs are not negligible - No, but they are extremely small. Disk storage is very cheap today.
computers to host the site - Small. It's spread out over all the books, plus all the other sites being hosted on those computers. Large data centers keep these costs very low.
administrators to run the site - Goes with the computer costs.
programmers to write the software for the site (and the ones who are writing the stuff for the Sony Connect Reader stuff need to be paid less - that software reeks!) - Software is already written. Companies like Fictionwise are already using it. Even if the company wants to have customer software, it's still spread out over all the books sold and is very small.


I'm sure I'm missing some, but this should make the point that the brick-and-mortar costs and the paper/binding costs do not simply go away - they get shifted to other costs so other people can take their cut. Electrons might not cost anything, but the electron support network does.

Facts:

Paper costs more than electrons
Making a copy of a pBook significantly costs more than making a copy of an eBook.
Transporting a pBook to a customer costs far more than transporting an eBook to the customer.
The eBook market cuts out the useless middleman of Publisher - who takes a large cut of the profits of pBooks.

Don't rule out publishers so quickly. Publishers provide editors, illustrators, layout designers, aid in distribution, etc. They help turn an amateurish product into a professional one. Sure, the bookbinder and the shippers (UPS/FedEx) are no longer needed, but almost everyone in the pbook production pipeline has an analogue in the ebook pipeline. I would hate to see the professional aspects of pbook publishing be eliminated. Don't replace my New York Times with the Weekly World News.

Don't rule out publishers so quickly. Publishers provide editors, illustrators

True, but I would argue that these services don't bring direct value to the consumer. They bring value to the author - to help him create a product that sells better. Therefore they are part of the cost of doing business. If the author decides to use these services, those costs should come out of the author's pocket.

Yes, ultimately we the consumers will end up paying for those services, but authors who use those services will compete with authors who don't, so the costs will be kept as low as possible.

layout designers, aid in distribution

Since layout is is a detriment in eBooks, a layout designer brings no value.
And distribution for eBooks is simple and cheap, so no aid is needed (not by a publisher anyway).

Today, publishers bring value in that they can get the book from the author's head to the consumer's hands in a cost-efficient way. That value disappears with eBooks.

True, but I would argue that these services don't bring direct value to the consumer. They bring value to the author - to help him create a product that sells better. Therefore they are part of the cost of doing business. If the author decides to use these services, those costs should come out of the author's pocket.

Yes, ultimately we the consumers will end up paying for those services, but authors who use those services will compete with authors who don't, so the costs will be kept as low as possible.

So that means only authors who can afford to pay an editor and proofreaders will be able to put out polished material. Authors themselves are the least qualified to judge their own work.

One of the reasons I appreciate editors (and proofreaders, who I forgot to mention), is that they make text more readible. I do admit to a bit of the grammarian in me, but it's out of a desire for quality. Whenever I read a sentence containing a spelling or grammatical error, it's like driving over a pothole. A truly malformed sentence can derail a train of reasoning. Proofreaders eliminate this garbage, making the text smoother. Editors make corrections, too, but at the conceptual level, to help the author state their ideas more clearly. In the end, they both provide a valuable service.

However, there are other reasons to get rid of the publishers: to let new talent shine through. We all have heard the tales of the musician who couldn't get signed on a major record label, so they tried to distribute CDs (or LPs) on their own, and couldn't get anywhere. Now, the Internet has MySpace, where musicians can post their own music for anyone in the world to listen to, giving them a chance to be heard. One could argue that the popularity of the iPod has helped independent musicians to get noticed, and a similarly popular e-reader could help independent authors get noticed. But to do that, someone would have to create a MySpace for authors, a "MySay". (Ok, I just realized that blogs fit this need.)

Still, budding authors need assistance to move from amateur to professional level, and until there is a web-based resource of proofreaders, editors, and the like, publishers (and magazines and journals), will be the best option for producing quality.

Of course, if you're not interested in quality, why are you buying books? There must be hundreds of amateur authors out on the Internet. Just wander around, and you find someone writing about anything, without regards to quality or standards. Don't like what you read in the standard news? Then read the Drudge Report, where fact-checking is optional. Can't wait for the next Harry Potter book? Then download the Chinese knockoffs--but don't complain to Rowling when her next novel blatantly contradicts what happened in the knockoff.

When will folks realize that you get what you pay for? If what you get is free, then you're lucky if it's good.

I'm going to shut up now, because I'm starting to rant, and I really don't want to get into an ad hominem flame war.

It's probably worth noting that the average cost of a paperback book to produce is about 50p (UK money) or about $1. Distribution costs also have to be taken into consideration

't replace my New York Times with the Weekly World News.At least the journalistic integrity would only take a small hit. :mad: (sorry, couldn't resist)

Something missing in all that "new costs" list is electricity to run all that equipment. That's got to be a bite. Even spread out over all the books, it's a 24/7 expense, and it never stops adding up.

I tend to agree more with William about the value of Publishers than with rlauzon -- I think they do add (quite a lot of) value, both intext quality, and in being able to have some sort of expectation as a starting place. For example, I read a number of Baen's offerrings, I know what sort of quality that publisher generally turns out, I know what sorts of genre's they carry. When I see a Baen logo on a book, I know that there's a better than average possibility that I might be interested in that book, even if I've never heard of the author. It makes me more likely to take a look at the thing.

There are, of course, other ways to do the same thing, the ranking/reccomender system discussed elsewhere on M.R. for instance, but this is one we have now, and it is a help.

I do think that the present arrangement has concentrated too much control/power into the hands of the Pubs. Baen isn't a good example here, because they seem to be more enlightened in this regard than other pubs, but just the same. I'd like to see a system that provides the services that Pubs provide, without giving them such a strangle-hold on the industry. :shrug:

Compared to the readers and the authors, the Pubs are the minority, why should they have most of the power in the equation, even with the value they add? In the paper world, it makes more sense, with the investment needed to publish a book there, but in the e world, the costs aren't significantly different to publish 10 copies than they are for 1000. With a reduction in assumed risk, it seems to me that they should see a reduction in control.

Several folks have implied that all (or most, or many) of the costs inherent in pbooks go away with ebooks. I would dispute that. Don't get me wrong, I think ebooks should be less expensive than they are now. But costs don't go away.When you realize that the cost of manufacturing and shipping the physical book is one of the smallest parts of the total price, ebook pricing begins to seem almost in line. A paperback typically costs less than $1 to print and ship, a hardcover around $2. Some of the larger marginal costs - author royalities and retailer discount - are the same for both pbooks and ebooks. Ebooks also have certain fixed costs which need to be distributed over what is current as much smaller run, as ebooks do not sell nearly as well as pbooks. Additionally they have to share the amortization of some larger fixed cost with their pbook bretheren - such as publicity and advertising.

All totalled, the marginal cost for ebooks is perhaps a couple of dollars less than pbook, so it should balance out if the ebooks are sold for a dollar or two less - and, surprise!, a lot of them are. :D

To add my two cents, I believe that both William & RLauzon are correct.

The distinction I see is that RLauzon is arguing that the...post production services of a publisher are unnecessary in the e-book world, and so those costs should go away. We close the binderies, lay off or transfer the workers who set type, load paper, and actually *make* the physical book. No big factories creating physical content, less payroll, less overhead.

William Moates is concerned that the...pre-production services of a publisher are not lost. Publishing house gets lots of unsolicited stuff, and I wager that a good number of bidding authors need help to hone their skill, and the rest mostly stink.

An editor, a proofreader, and a fact checker need not, I think, work just for the big scary 800 pound publishing company. They could incorporate as a small consulting group, working free lance for authors. Hire an IT manager, and they can start getting content out.

I think that the latter is a perfectly cromulent business model, and I believe that there is a link of this forum to a situation like that happening. A software company here in Chicago became their own online publisher.

There are any number of professionals who were faced with obsolesence(sp), and had to adapt or more elsewhere. This is a fact of life, especially in business. Unless people acquire new skills or try new methods, they fail.

Getting back to the debate, it seems that every one agrees that e-books are cheaper to produce. If this is the case, it is quite infuriating to be saddled with the cost of another product when I want to buy something, and to receive less of a product or less quality because of the form I want it in.

If I buy a Ferrari, mine should not cost $19,000 more because I want it in white, not red.

So that means only authors who can afford to pay an editor and proofreaders will be able to put out polished material. Authors themselves are the least qualified to judge their own work.

I'm saying that authors will cope in a cost effective way.

When you realize that the cost of manufacturing and shipping the physical book is one of the smallest parts of the total price, ebook pricing begins to seem almost in line.

Huh?

That's not what the people in the publishing industry are telling us.

They are saying that of that $7.95 paperback, the author gets about $0.70.

So, if it only costs $1 to print a paperback, costs for the publishers are up to $1.70. That means that the retailer and the publisher are splitting $6.25 per book.

That doesn't seem correct.

I'm saying that authors will cope in a cost effective way.

...assuming they have any money at all.

Huh?

That's not what the people in the publishing industry are telling us.

They are saying that of that $7.95 paperback, the author gets about $0.70.

So, if it only costs $1 to print a paperback, costs for the publishers are up to $1.70. That means that the retailer and the publisher are splitting $6.25 per book.

That doesn't seem correct.

What isn't correct is your assumption here that every book published actually gets sold, which obviously isn't the case. Aside from that, there are also marketing and publicity costs.

A few things to remember;

With pbooks there is a constant, sunk, setup cost whether the production run is large or small. Ebooks don't require this setup printing cost & could allow smaller runs of speciality books at a cheaper price, thus allowing a greater range of books to reach the market.
With pbooks there is the cost of the retailer, his facility & employee paychecks and his profit (as well as his losses due to not selling his inventory - said losses may be born by the publisher). These costs do not apply to ebooks.
Some (maybe most) of the computer resources that ebooks require are already in place with the publishers. He just will need a new paradigm on computer usage.
The shift towards ebooks & away from pbooks would be gradual. This may mean that ebooks start out at a higher cost due to new, untried methods but should eventually drop significantly.

Do any of us really understand the economies here? I certainly don't. I'm not even sure _they_ know!

I disagree, slayda, with the notion that there aren't any retail costs for e-books. Even if the Pub or Author, for that matter decides to sell the e-books themselves, they'll have to have some infrastructure to handle that. Even if they purchase pre-made e-commerce package and run it off-the-shelf, there'll be the cost of the package and hardware to run it on, and folks to keep it all running, etc. :shrug:

Would it be greatly reduced? Surely, but it'd still be there.

I disagree, slayda, with the notion that there aren't any retail costs for e-books. Even if the Pub or Author, for that matter decides to sell the e-books themselves, they'll have to have some infrastructure to handle that. Even if they purchase pre-made e-commerce package and run it off-the-shelf, there'll be the cost of the package and hardware to run it on, and folks to keep it all running, etc. :shrug:

Would it be greatly reduced? Surely, but it'd still be there.

What I meant, Nathan, was that the muptiple retail stores could be elliminated. Ebooks would, IMO, be web based stores. Yes there would still be some retail cost but much reduced.

Don

Huh?

That's not what the people in the publishing industry are telling us.

They are saying that of that $7.95 paperback, the author gets about $0.70.

So, if it only costs $1 to print a paperback, costs for the publishers are up to $1.70. That means that the retailer and the publisher are splitting $6.25 per book.

That doesn't seem correct.Ok, here's how it generally breaks down:

A $7.95 paperback wholesales to the retailer for $3.50 - $4.00, and may even have been supplied to a distributor first for $2.80 - 3.40.

Of that, say $3.50, the publisher pays $1 for printing and shipping, $0.75 for royalties, leaving a marginal gross profit of $1.75 per titles. Out of that needs to come the costs for development, formatting, publicity, administration, an allowance for returns and remainders, and profit.

Now, an ebook publisher, producing only ebook titles, can save on the printing and shipping. Unfortunately you cannot eliminate the retail channel, since most readers want a selection of books from multiple publishers, and won't be interested in visiting each publishers' website to find their titles. And, if you are using ANY retail channel, then as a publisher you cannot undercut your retailers and sell for less on your website, not unless you want to alienate your dealers.

The amortized costs for publicity, development, editing, formatting and administration have to be spread across the entire "print" run - and at the moment, ebooks are a niche market and as such have fairly high shared costs compared to print books because there are fewer electronic copies being sold.

But, don't take my word for it - start up your own publishing company and give it a try. :D

A $7.95 paperback wholesales to the retailer for $3.50 - $4.00, and may even have been supplied to a distributor first for $2.80 - 3.40.

Of that, say $3.50, the publisher pays $1 for printing and shipping, $0.75 for royalties, leaving a marginal gross profit of $1.75 per titles. Out of that needs to come the costs for development, formatting, publicity, administration, an allowance for returns and remainders, and profit.

OK. I see how you are coming up with your numbers now.

Now, an ebook publisher, producing only ebook titles, can save on the printing and shipping. Unfortunately you cannot eliminate the retail channel

Here's where you are (partially) wrong. You are right in that you cannot eliminate the retail channel. But the costs of retail are greatly reduced for eBooks.

Retail costs for a physical product are for shelf space, stocking fees, taxes for stock on hand, etc. Most of those costs disappear for eBooks, and the rest of those costs are greatly reduced. So instead of taking a $3.50 cut, a retailer takes $1 for an eBook.

since most readers want a selection of books from multiple publishers, and won't be interested in visiting each publishers' website to find their titles. And, if you are using ANY retail channel, then as a publisher you cannot undercut your retailers and sell for less on your website, not unless you want to alienate your dealers.

You're in pBook mode still.

Since copying of an eBook is effectively free, an author can offer it through many retail channels at once. There is no shortage of copies like there is in the pBook world.

The amortized costs for publicity, development, editing, formatting and administration have to be spread across the entire "print" run - and at the moment, ebooks are a niche market and as such have fairly high shared costs compared to print books because there are fewer electronic copies being sold.

Yes, that's today. We are talking about tomorrow when eBooks are the norm.

Also related to this is the selling of eBooks today at greater than hardcover prices.

Retail costs for a physical product are for shelf space, stocking fees, taxes for stock on hand, etc. Most of those costs disappear for eBooks, and the rest of those costs are greatly reduced. So instead of taking a $3.50 cut, a retailer takes $1 for an eBook.

If I were a retailer, I'd take issue with that statement. I still have to pay for office space, employees, operating facilities, server hosting, bandwidth, electricity, cooling, disaster recovery services, benefits and health care, legal fees, city taxes, county taxes, state taxes, federal taxes, fica, local telco, long distance telco, cleaning services, office equipment services...the list goes on and on.

We don't handle any physical inventory at our office, and still running the office and the data center alone is pretty expensive. I don't think Fictionwise has ever fessed up to their sales figures, but I somehow doubt they're selling millions of titles a month.

Here's where you are (partially) wrong. You are right in that you cannot eliminate the retail channel. But the costs of retail are greatly reduced for eBooks.

Retail costs for a physical product are for shelf space, stocking fees, taxes for stock on hand, etc. Most of those costs disappear for eBooks, and the rest of those costs are greatly reduced. So instead of taking a $3.50 cut, a retailer takes $1 for an eBook.I agree that marginal retail costs for ebook are significantly less than pbooks if only in storage and retail space. The problem is that, for now, because the market size is slight, the amortized fixed costs are much higher on the per item basis. Ebook stores sell fewer copies than pbook stores. Granted, they could lower the price and hope to make it up on volume, but the current total market size versus the total purchasing market size would have to be a great deal larger to recoup the loss.

As ebooks mature and the market grows, I would expect to see $3.99 or $5.99 ebook "paperbacks" a la iTunes. Even so, you would need to have a large reading market, and I'm just not that confident that in the future the percentage of people who read for pleasure will stay even at its current rate. :(

Since copying of an eBook is effectively free, an author can offer it through many retail channels at once. There is no shortage of copies like there is in the pBook world.Not undercutting your dealer is not an issue of supply, it's an issue of business survival. Trust me, you do not want to undercut the people who are selling your product for you or they will simply stop carrying your line. It's one of the ultimate no-nos in business. The only way you can ever do it without burning your bridges is by "fencing" your deal so that casual customers are unaware or ineligible. And that can offend customers. Ah life!

Also related to this is the selling of eBooks today at greater than hardcover prices.I agree, but I can also understand some of where the publishers come on this. If a book is not selling very well, the publisher may not want to bother with releasing a "paperback" priced version, if only because of the cost of a new ISBN number.

One of the downsides of ebooks is that, unlike pbooks where unsold copies are "remaindered in place" - i.e. sold for a fraction of their list price in order to save the cost of shipping them back - it's actually more expensive it terms of time and labour to reduce the price of an existing ebook. And since there is no anticipated savings on shipping or remaindered copies, there's little incentive to decrease the price.

Personally, I wish the publishers would get smart and adjust their ebook prices in line with whatever their current market price is for the same title. I know I'd buy more books if that were the case because I hate feeling ripped when buying a book.

I don't think Fictionwise has ever fessed up to their sales figures, but I somehow doubt they're selling millions of titles a month.

There was a discussion on the yahoo e-book community group about that and Fictionwise takes 50 or 55% of the "cover price". The e-authors posting there felt it was acceptable for the exposure, since Fictionwise is to a large extent the e-book retailer of reference for now at least for unencrypted stuff.

So I tend to agree that it's going to be very hard to make a living (authors, retailers...) in the e-book business at low price points, and conversely, people do not want to pay too much for e-content. That to me is the ultimate dillema for e-books, more than drm and the Tower of Babel in formats.

Liviu

I agree that marginal retail costs for ebook are significantly less than pbooks if only in storage and retail space. The problem is that, for now, because the market size is slight, the amortized fixed costs are much higher on the per item basis. Ebook stores sell fewer copies than pbook stores. Granted, they could lower the price and hope to make it up on volume, but the current total market size versus the total purchasing market size would have to be a great deal larger to recoup the loss.

*Sigh*

Author writes book (probably on a word processor). Provides file to publisher. Publisher clicks twice and - viola - eBook.

Where's the "amortized fixed costs" for an eBook?

If the publisher wants to set up their own eBook store, then that is their decision based on whether or not they think they can make money. It's like McDonalds saying "we are going to charge double for a hamburger for the next year cuz we need money to build a new restaurant."

But those costs are avoidable since they can rent someone else's infrastructure. They do so today at places like eReader, but the prices that they charge for the eBook is more than the price of the hardcover paper version.

There's no excuse for that.

One of the downsides of ebooks is that, unlike pbooks where unsold copies are "remaindered in place" - i.e. sold for a fraction of their list price in order to save the cost of shipping them back - it's actually more expensive it terms of time and labour to reduce the price of an existing ebook. And since there is no anticipated savings on shipping or remaindered copies, there's little incentive to decrease the price.

I'm sorry, but are we in the same reality?

There is no such thing as an "unsold copy" of an eBook. Copies are made as people buy them - for almost no cost. Reducing the price of an eBook is as simple as going in to the web interface to the database and changing the price.

There was a discussion on the yahoo e-book community group about that and Fictionwise takes 50 or 55% of the "cover price". The e-authors posting there felt it was acceptable for the exposure, since Fictionwise is to a large extent the e-book retailer of reference for now at least for unencrypted stuff.

So I tend to agree that it's going to be very hard to make a living (authors, retailers...) in the e-book business at low price points, and conversely, people do not want to pay too much for e-content. That to me is the ultimate dillema for e-books, more than drm and the Tower of Babel in formats.

pBook - Author makes $0.70 per book sold. Let's be generous and say $1.00.

eBook - Most Fictionwise books that I've seen are about $4. If Fictionwise takes 50%, then the author gets the other $50 or $2 per eBook sold.

It seems to me that $2.00 > $1.00.

Now, I agree that today it will be impossible for an author to make money off an eBook but that's simply because the market is small today.

When eBooks start selling like paper books do today, then that's a different story.

*Sigh*

Author writes book (probably on a word processor). Provides file to publisher. Publisher clicks twice and - viola - eBook.

Where's the "amortized fixed costs" for an eBook?I don't wish to belittle you, but your concept of "publishing" an ebook is ...um... a little simplistic.

But I think you know that, and at this point your are arguing for argument's sake.

If you really don't know what is entailed in the publishing process, well, I just can't help you. I'm not up for delivering a graduate seminar in publishing.

I'm sorry, but are we in the same reality?

There is no such thing as an "unsold copy" of an eBook. Copies are made as people buy them - for almost no cost. Reducing the price of an eBook is as simple as going in to the web interface to the database and changing the price.I guess you didn't grasp the concept I was trying to highlight. With pbooks, because there ARE unsold copies, you will often see the titles on sale since it is cheaper for the publisher to drastically reduce the price and have the retailer sell them ("remainder in place") as opposed to shipping them back to the publisher for credit ("remainder return"). You do know, I trust, that most physical bookstores operate on something of a consignment system?

What I was trying to point out is that since that issue doesn't pertain to ebooks - i.e. there are no unsold copies to be shipped back - there is often no incentive to radically reduce the price. Since leaving the book out there floating in the ether costs so little, why bother reissuing an ISBN number for a new lower-priced version, or giving the retailer a huge discount in hopes that a few more copies would sell. The marginal profit on the new copies would need to recoup costs and time spent, and, until the market grows, those additional sales are not particularly spectactular.

Not undercutting your dealer is not an issue of supply, it's an issue of business survival. Trust me, you do not want to undercut the people who are selling your product for you or they will simply stop carrying your line. It's one of the ultimate no-nos in business. The only way you can ever do it without burning your bridges is by "fencing" your deal so that casual customers are unaware or ineligible. And that can offend customers. Ah life!

There is a reason that Disney is the only studio selling movies on iTunes, and the grapevine says that reason is called "WalMart". If by selling a few million on iTunes you give up selling tens of millions at retail, you're gonna go retail.

Furthermore, has anyone done any market studies to see if reducing the price of ebooks would actually increase sales? Sounds counter-intuitive, but I'm willing to bet that if the current $25 hardcover best seller were sold for $1 as an ebook, there would be a big discussion about what under-valuing a product does to its market perception.

pBook - Author makes $0.70 per book sold. Let's be generous and say $1.00.

eBook - Most Fictionwise books that I've seen are about $4. If Fictionwise takes 50%, then the author gets the other $50 or $2 per eBook sold.

It seems to me that $2.00 > $1.00.

Now, I agree that today it will be impossible for an author to make money off an eBook but that's simply because the market is small today.

When eBooks start selling like paper books do today, then that's a different story.

Leaving aside the volume issue, the problem with this argument is that it assumes that the author publishes directly through Fictionwise, and that's not the case. You gotta be published somewhere else even if only electronically, to list at Fictionwise unless you list lots of books as far as I know. Maybe someone like Lulu would be a better choice for your argument, they take 20% I think and you set the price, but then it comes back to filtering. Who is going to find out about your book? People go to Fictionwise for a reason...
Unless there is a coop system or an "universal ranking" based on preference, or something, as an unkwnown author you need a filter through which you get exposure. Publishers do this, mostly not that great, but still right now is what we have.

Liviu

Experts already give four primary reasons why the Sony Reader will be a niche player and not reach the mainstream readers:

The price of $350 is a steep up-front investment when paper books cost nothing up-front.


There is no backlight


The e-ink display may be gorgeous, but page turns are slow, and it also restricts the interface functionality.


The Sony Connect store uses a DRM'd format controlled by Sony, and therefore without a huge discount on books, people will avoid the Reader.



I've had mine for a little over a week and I'm already into my second book, The Second Confession by Rex Stout. I think the Sony Reader can be successful if its marketed right and if they expand the library of titles. Only 4 of Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe series is available while Random House has the entire line available in paperback, conversion should be simple. I emailed Random House asking if they had plans to do this but no response yet.

As for the points above:

2. Backlight, what everyone else has said, its better without it.

3. I've had to adjust to making sure I actually read the very last line before I turn the page, in a real book I read it while I'm turning. But I consider that small potatoes. Reading is the slowest medium and the fact a page turn takes a half-second instead of an 1/8 of a second isn't a problem.

1 and 4 are directly related. Yes there is a cost if you're buying new books but older books actually run a little less than paperbacks. There's also the fact that there are thousands of works of classic literature available for free through Project Gutenberg. Plus, while the PG files work on the reader, you can get them more 'reader friendly', through manybooks.net. There's a major selling point here: Parents with junior high students. If they buy their kid this now thats 8-10 years of free access to all the classical required reading they'll face through high school and college. Another major selling point is the Renaissance. Everyone wants to have that big leatherbound collection of classical works. Few people have the space or funds to have it. Now they can and who knows, they might actually read some it. The only drawback here is hopefuly newer models will let you store really large collections on the device (without a memory stick) and be able to sort it easily.

Furthermore, has anyone done any market studies to see if reducing the price of ebooks would actually increase sales? Sounds counter-intuitive, but I'm willing to bet that if the current $25 hardcover best seller were sold for $1 as an ebook, there would be a big discussion about what under-valuing a product does to its market perception.

Regardless of the actual cost and profit, a significantly cheaper ebook version will make the pbook look expensive by comparison, which is not the kind of impression a publisher wants to make. And as you rightly point out, reducing the price might not yield more sales, let alone more profit.

@ Maccool:

I think that you are dead-on regarding this being a wise investment for parents--provided that children can be trusted with a $350 electronic device. Of course, it seems a glut of junior high schooler now own/want their own cell phone &/ iPod, so there could be hope.

Wonder if SONY would be willing to give group/bulk discounts. If the marketing department sought out PTA's and Departments of Education, they could carve out quite a large niche. That is, providing that they do not step on the toes of the publishers. Maybe a tie in with Scholastic Reader? They could have a RSS feed for the the Reader....

At any rate, Great point Maccool

Author writes book (probably on a word processor). Provides file to publisher. Publisher clicks twice and - viola - eBook.


Let me know what that two-click method is when you get a chance...I'm sure a lot of us here would pay money for that ;)

I don't wish to belittle you, but your concept of "publishing" an ebook is ...um... a little simplistic.

Then enlighten us.

But I think you know that, and at this point your are arguing for argument's sake.

Partially. I am not that intimate with what goes on in the Publishing industry. Just what I hear people from Baen and other say.

Yes, I am keeping things simplistic but that's because, as a customer, the only thing that a Publisher does is make getting a book cost effective (as compared to the monks who used to hand-copy books).

Any other function of a publisher brings me, a customer, no value.

What I was trying to point out is that since that issue doesn't pertain to ebooks

Sorry. That's what I get for posting before the coffee kicks in. 8-)

Let me know what that two-click method is when you get a chance...I'm sure a lot of us here would pay money for that ;)

Fire up OpenOffice. Load in eBook. Click on SaveAs PDF. Then OK.

Done.

Fire up OpenOffice. Load in eBook. Click on SaveAs PDF. Then OK.

Done.

Is this an ideal world of eBooks we're talking about? Or why eBooks should be cheaper as it stands today?

Fire up OpenOffice. Load in eBook. Click on SaveAs PDF. Then OK.

Done.

And... you would end up with a pretty crummy eBook. Although you might not think there is any "value-added" by the publisher, I can think of several things. In your example the author submits the book in electronic form and a couple of buttons are pushed, and that's all there is to it.

What about editing? Or formatting? Spelling and grammar checking, etc. Surely you don't think an author is going to have a book anywhere near ready for publication when he submits it to the publisher, do you?

Transforming a book from the author's initial submittal into a professionally edited, formatted, and styled document ready for presentation to the public is some of the value added by the publisher (at least that which I can think of off the top of my head.)

Yes, I am keeping things simplistic but that's because, as a customer, the only thing that a Publisher does is make getting a book cost effective (as compared to the monks who used to hand-copy books).

Any other function of a publisher brings me, a customer, no value.Oh wow.

Ok, if you truly feel that publishers bring no value to the table, especially with ebooks, than you should be quite satisfied getting your fiction fix, if any, off of the internet newsgroups and other places where authors distribute their work directly.

Feel free to wade through the mass of tortured prose of such swell quality, and chuckle at my gullibility for spending cash to read something that has been filtered, edited, packaged and publicized. What, you think those functions only bring value to the writer, not the reader? Um, once again, feel free to spend your time wading through the unedited stuff. :D

Transforming a book from the author's initial submittal into a professionally edited, formatted, and styled document ready for presentation to the public is some of the value added by the publisher (at least that which I can think of off the top of my head.)And don't forget things like packaging and publicity which raises the awareness of the mere existance of the title, and the fact that most successful ebooks need to be released in a number of formats. PDF is fine, but there's LIT, LRF, Mobipocket, eReader, etc, etc.

Goodness, just look at the number of people complaining about typos in books at the connect store! A good publisher and editor try to minimize these if they can. If there was no editing, proofreading et al, the quality wouldn't even rank up there with Fictionwise's multiformat books, which are, in my opinion, pretty bad already.