This is an issue we have all talked about before, and it remains an issue.
So far, we have all been hoping for software updates to improve battery life, and they have improved. however, something is still gravely wrong. The Hanlin V8 and the sony Librié both manage to deliver loads of "standby" time. If you put them aside and don't use them the battery apparently doesn't drain considerably faster than it would if you removed it from the device.

the question is whether this will ever be possible with the Iliad. Hardware shouldn't be the problem here, the Iliad doesn't have anything (essential to reading) that the other devices don't. The Hanlin even has a conventional Touchscreen, so it should be even harder to use power-saving there than it is with the Iliad's Wacom (pen out, power on, pen in, power off).

I've seen a very worrying comment from the iRex developers on their forums, which is also the reason why I'm putting htis post up.

View the thread here:
http://forum.irexnet.com/viewtopic.php?p=1901#1901

The line that frightens me is the following:
You assumption is incorrect: although the screen doesn't need power, the processor, usb, mmc/cf slot, etc. requires power when the device is turned on.

Maybe we can finally get some iformation about the Power-Saving limitations of the Iliad in comparison to the Hanlin V8 and the old Librié, so join the discussion there and here and maybe we can get some idea what the Iliad's battery life will be and what it won't.

Apart from the fact that the power-hunger of the Iliad makes us very power-outles ependent, the fact that we have to reload so often reduces the life-span of our batteries quite considerably, and the battery isn't user replaceable...take that into consideration as well.
I really like my Iliad, no question, but the fact that it's power-saving quite possibly isn't going to be the Full on/off mode the other devices support really makes me regret not getting a Hanlin V8. The smaller screen and the ugly exterior don't really make the device more attractive, but it's more paperlike (booklike) properties are definited advantages...

As I have said before: If the Zaurus can go to and resume from suspend in no time I don't know why the iLiad shouldn't be able to do the same.

From the discussions here and at the iRex forum I got the impression they are not going for that approach.

You could do that: Clicking a button re-awakes from suspend, makes the screen update and possibly some pre-caching, then goes back into suspend.

You loose the possibility to run background tasks. (Examples: SMB server to copy files via network; background downloading of content; ...) I could live without that, but apparently others don't.

It looks like they are simply using a powersaving scheme similar to laptops - CPU gets throttled when nothing is to be done. We will know for sure when the SDK is out.


Note: It might be that the buttons aren't accessible in suspend mode (that is, the necessary hardware capability to wake up on button click is missing). Then, it would only be possible with the Iliad v2.

Note: It might be that the buttons aren't accessible in suspend mode (that is, the necessary hardware capability to wake up on button click is missing). Then, it would only be possible with the Iliad v2.

That would be really stupid.

@tribble

It would be stupid...but somehow i'm afraid that#s exactly what's going on here...or am I turning from optimist to pessimist...?

@tribble

It would be stupid...but somehow i'm afraid that#s exactly what's going on here...or am I turning from optimist to pessimist...?

OK, lets move to the meditation thread.

Very worrysome indeed.

The beauty of Linux is that you should be able to put to sleep almost any hardware component to save valuable battery life...

It's time iRex folks comply to GPL and release the sources to the damn thing. Then perhaps some capable Linux hackers will fix what's still broken.

Very worrysome indeed.

The beauty of Linux is that you should be able to put to sleep almost any hardware component to save valuable battery life...

It's time iRex folks comply to GPL and release the sources to the damn thing. Then perhaps some capable Linux hackers will fix what's still broken.


I agree 100%. They have a very narrow window of opportunity before Sony steals their thunder with the Reader, and they have many open source developers waiting to knock out software for it. All we need is access to the platform and a working toolchain (actually all we need is access to the platform and their libraries...) We don't care if it's unfinished or rough around the edges - but if we don't get it soon then they will lose their advantage and this will be disastrous for them.

Also, they need to open up the machine completely - root access, hardware specs, full source code. If they do this, then the open source community will work magic with this wonderful piece of hardware. If they smother us with unnecessary restrictions then we'll get bored and do something else.


Your call, Irex.....

I really like the size of the Iliad, it's weight is okay and the features are cool (even if I don't use them most of the time, it's good to have them there...using the device as a notepad is a cool way of making it paper-like...).

So if they can get the battery life going and maybe make it possible to zoom in PDF files (or rather make it possible for reflowable PDF files to actually reflow...) then I'd be a happy camper...

I don't think they will give the open-source community enough info to reshape the basic OS itself and I don't know whether they should. I'll wait till I see 2.7, if I see something hopeful happening then, I'll give them more time. If it still runs out of power just as quickly, whther you actually use it or not, then I'll go really mad and scream at them. It won't help, but I'll do it anyway... :rolleyes5

I'd really hate to swap the nicely done Iliad for a cheap-looking Chinese device, but if the Chinese device gives me what I need (battery life, some input options and a cover/protection right out of the box) then...maybe...we'll see...^^

I don't think they will give the open-source community enough info to reshape the basic OS itself and I don't know whether they should.
I guess if you saw the difference between "Sharp ROM 2.something" and current Opie releases (for the Zaurus), your answer would be different. :)

The issue with the Iliad not able to do proper power saving was what made me to buy a Librie, and I am very happy with it.

The other reason was the Iliad being closed for developers. That was a bad management decision. Once you are a market leader you can do what you want, even introducing your own formats.

I am sad of not having that piece of hardware that is the Iliad, but for what I see in the forums,I think I have done the right decision. With the Librie (once one understands it) I can read anywhere and I do not have to worry about batteries.

What I still do not know is why they decided to go for the 2.4 kernel. The 2.6 kernel has a much better power management. And new development on the 2.4 tree is almost dead.

Anyway, till they do not open the device to developers those questions will only be guesses. I wonder even if what the irex guys say is the truth.

Note: It might be that the buttons aren't accessible in suspend mode (that is, the necessary hardware capability to wake up on button click is missing). Then, it would only be possible with the Iliad v2.

I just thought, at least ONE button must be accessible in suspend, doesnt it? The Power on/off switch. Or am i wrong?

Anyway, till they do not open the device to developers those questions will only be guesses. I wonder even if what the irex guys say is the truth.

I take your word and I hope that now that the Librie is completely open for development, (thanks to reverse engineering by A. Jennings) you will look for ways to contribute to it!! In turn, this will put pressure on other sellers (iLiad, Amazon) to help developers instead of being afraid of them.

I... completely - root access, hardware specs, full source code.

The Apple II came with the complete schematics of the electronic circuit board.

What I still do not know is why they decided to go for the 2.4 kernel. The 2.6 kernel has a much better power management. And new development on the 2.4 tree is almost dead.

the references for the usb chip they are using speak only about the 2.4 kernel, so a jump to 2.6 depends on someone actually doing a module to drive this USB chip, which is a very peculiar beast from Phillips.

In any case, also the Librie kernel was 2.4.

Unfortunatelly that is what usually happens. A sad story is the first sharp zaurus. It can run a 2.6 kernel, but the sd slot was developed by sharp and it is still closed (therefore enforcing the openzaurus releases to come with a 2.4 kernel and a propertary precompiled module).

As for the Librie, I still consider it as closed. And I give thanks that I can at least use it. Not to mention that strange format they use. But it serves me well. I can take it anywhere, it has screen protection, it is small and it does not drain the batteries.

We should also remember that the Librie is quite an old device. For a new one I would have hoped a 2.6 kernel would be used. But I would also have hoped the irex guys to submit patches with bug fixes for the opensource software they have modified... And that is something that I am not aware off.

If irex would have started as Nokia did, with a buggy device (N770) but giving a strong emphasis in development, while keeping some of the core applications closed, then I am sure things would be much different.

We should also remember that the Librie is quite an old device. For a new one I would have hoped a 2.6 kernel would be used. But I would also have hoped the irex guys to submit patches with bug fixes for the opensource software they have modified... And that is something that I am not aware off.
They promised to releases the sources... some time. From what I understood, the main problem iRex folks have with going open-source, such as Nokia did with the 770, is that they cannot convince the publishers that their content is save. You know, the old story... security through obscurity.

They promised to releases the sources... some time. From what I understood, the main problem iRex folks have with going open-source, such as Nokia did with the 770, is that they cannot convince the publishers that their content is save. You know, the old story... security through obscurity.
Do you think they realise that this won't work for infinite time, especially on a open-source/GPL system? They are required to release the sources, at least to the kernel and everything thats linked against a GPL library.
And as we all know, GPL-violations had a lot of success stories in it's not all to long history.

:wink:

edit:
I like the closing of this paragaph at gpl-violations.org:

Won't this GPL stuff cost me a lot ?
...
It will only cost you a lot if you set out to violate the license.

What Nokia did was to go straight for Opensource (with scratchbox-maemo). However the set of applications they considered core were not published (opera, news app, radio and media player come to my mind). If Irex has done a proper implementation of the software then they should have a clear division betwen what is open and what is not and do what Nokia did

Not to mention that modules do not have to be open.

With those two arguments in mind they could have done something secure but that complies to GPL.

What I still do not have very clear is...

When they release the source... Will they release the source of all the versions they have produced or just only the last one?

If they clearly violate GPL (and admit it)... Why are they making us wait? They should release what they have soon.

From what I've seen they've written very little original code of their own, nearly everything is open source. Which should make most all the key parts of the platform available when they publish the source.

The Librie has its own quirky little windowing system (not X) and they wrote their own book format w/ DRM and their own navigation app. Very little of the key system features were cobbled together off open source.

They are required to release the sources, at least to the kernel and everything thats linked against a GPL library.

Which is why most libraries are released under the LGPL, which allows linking from commercial closed-source software. So they don't need to publish the sources of, say, pageBar, if it just links to Xlib and gtk.

Which is why most libraries are released under the LGPL, which allows linking from commercial closed-source software. So they don't need to publish the sources of, say, pageBar, if it just links to Xlib and gtk.
Would have no problem with that. I'm not a evangelist crying to want to have everything covered by GPL. :wink:
I was thinking of the base system, not the iRex add-ons.

pdf and html browsers are, I think, not just libraries but heavily patched forks of the original minimo and xpdf. I could be wrong about minimo.

I know there are many very informed people on these forums...so...I've got a question for you...

I own a PocketPC, it's an old one, I got it for 40€ at a closing down sale. It is named "Yakumo Delta 300 GPS" and is basically a pretty meidocre PDA with a not-too-good GPS added in.
I used this device as an interim reading device to get used to reading ebooks instead of paper-books before the launch of the Iliad.

Now, let's get to the question...

This PocketPC can do something quite amazing...If I read a book, it saves the last-seen page. This is something the Iliad can do as well. My Pocket PC however can display the last-viewed page if I switch the device off and on again. Switching the device on takes roughly 1 second (from all-off to last-displayed-page).
If I switch the device off (or let it turn itself off) and just leave it lying htere, the battery will slowly degrad, but it takes about 4 weeks to go completely flat.

The real question is...can this be done with Linux as well? The Processor is the same type as the one the Iliad uses (but it's only 300Mhz if I remember correctly). I used an SD card for my books with the PDA.

The reason I ask is, that if this is possible with a linux device, then I'd ask iRex to do the following:

Add a little switch in the "Settings" menu that let's us decide which boot-mode the Iliad uses.

Give us Normal and Book mode.

In Normal mode, do what you do at the moment.
In book-mode don't load network, wifi, Wacom and whatever else is non-essential.
Activate Quick-Suspend (page-load complete, power off or suspend to RAM, whatever the PDA does). As soon as the PageBar is used, power-up, flip page, power down.
If there is no Hardware Limitation in the Iliad, this would give us about 3-4 weeks of "Standby" and a lot of pageturns in reading mode...

This would be an interim solution until iRex manages to get the PowerSaving working under regular conditions.

Now, tell me if/how this would be possible for a Linux device or what kind of problems there are that Linux has and Windows Mobile doesn't...
Thanks.

This PocketPC can do something quite amazing...If I read a book, it saves the last-seen page. This is something the Iliad can do as well. My Pocket PC however can display the last-viewed page if I switch the device off and on again. Switching the device on takes roughly 1 second (from all-off to last-displayed-page).
If I switch the device off (or let it turn itself off) and just leave it lying htere, the battery will slowly degrad, but it takes about 4 weeks to go completely flat.

It wasn't "off". It was suspended. There's a big difference.

The real question is...can this be done with Linux as well? The Processor is the same type as the one the Iliad uses (but it's only 300Mhz if I remember correctly). I used an SD card for my books with the PDA.

Yes. My Zaurus SL-C760 does this. The "power" button suspends the system when pressed, powering off the screen, remembering the memory state and powering down the procesor.

The reason I ask is, that if this is possible with a linux device, then I'd ask iRex to do the following:

But we aren't supposed to need to do this. The iLiad, being a single use device, should suspend when not in use for a period of time. A button pressing event should "wake" it.

From experience with many devices, I can tell you that the LCD and backlight use up the vast majority (and I mean VAST - like 75%+) of the power of the battery. eInk devices do not have an LCD and backlight and, so, the only power savings left are the processor and any peripherials.

In book-mode don't load network, wifi, Wacom and whatever else is non-essential.

Heck, I'd like the ability to just turn these off and leave them off.

Activate Quick-Suspend (page-load complete, power off or suspend to RAM, whatever the PDA does). As soon as the PageBar is used, power-up, flip page, power down.
If there is no Hardware Limitation in the Iliad, this would give us about 3-4 weeks of "Standby" and a lot of pageturns in reading mode...

I believe that if iRex knew how to do this, they would have done it already. This is what I would expect in an eBook reader.

Now, tell me if/how this would be possible for a Linux device or what kind of problems there are that Linux has and Windows Mobile doesn't...

As I said, there should be no issues with this. My Zaurus, running Linux, already does this (more or less).

What your PPC does is called "suspend-to-ram" (shutting off everything except the RAM and supporting circuits). If the iLiad would be able to do that, it could go to STR after switching the page, using the advantage of e-ink displays to keep the content without needing energy.

This is not a problem of using a Linux OS. But I think, like with normal PCs you are driver-wise better off with Windows, simply cause the hardware vendors or MIcrosoft provide you with drivers. Since I'm not into embedded Windows or Linux, I can't really say what the situation is there, just speculation.

Just take a Sharp Zaurus or a Siemens SIMPad (running OpenSIMPad), both are running linux, have a touchscreen and do suspend-to-ram. The iLiad however seems to have some hardware that doesn't make it easy to implement this, but I would not think it is totally impossible. I don't want to repeat it ever and ever but we all know that someone from iRex already mentioned in their forum that they have trouble with some of the hardware components.

Also your idea with the 2 boot options is probably not impossible, however it would need to be implemented. Most embedded devices have only one boot mode or something like "reset-to-factory" by pressing one button at boot-up.

If I switch the device off (or let it turn itself off) and just leave it lying htere, the battery will slowly degrad, but it takes about 4 weeks to go completely flat.

The real question is...can this be done with Linux as well?The (Linux-using) Sony Reader is a good arguement that it can be done, CommanderROR, or at least pretty close. It goes from "off" (a PDA like suspend state) to "back where you were" in ~4 seconds.

We won't have final word on the power management 'till folks have had them long enough to tell that, but the battery meter didn't budge after about 5 hours of pretty hard usage. I gather that 5 hours of non-usage puts the iLiad down to about 38% charge? Clearly it isn't the OS that's the problem there. :sad:

the wifi and wacom be turned off when not being used, what else is left to suspend cpu, memory cards support?

When it comes to start up performance one of the first things I want to look at is how iRex has the MSystem's Disk On Chip setup.

This devices seems to be running in a very incredibly slow mode of operation. Minimo , xpdf and the system boot take simply ages to load into RAM off the MSystem's device.

They've already admitted on their forum to running the iLiad in USB 1.1 1.1Mbps mode instead of 11Mbps mode, to make it more "stable". I'm wondering if they've hamstrung main storage in a similar means e.g. turned down the speed to make it more stable as well.

I've never seen Linux take so long to boot from FLASH.

I've never seen Linux take so long to boot from FLASH.

My Zaurus takes longer to boot up and everything on that is in Flash. Note that's a boot from a shutdown, not a suspend.

I've designed 3 embedded linux systems and none took this long to boot, with slower CPU's. If they have the MSystem's tuned down then it's costing us battery. The faster we can load and go, the sooner the system can get back to sleep.

Remember that iLiad boot is strange in the sense that they first boot into a bash script, and then this script boots into init.

And I never ever did that (boot into bash). :)

Nor can I really think of why I would, now that you mention it...

The guys int the Sony Forum are having trouble measuring their battery-life. The Device seems to refuse to consume any energy...:-)

Since the Sony Reader is also a Linux device, battery-life in these regions should be possible for the Iliad as well.

Let's hope iRex devote some resources to working on this soon...

Oh yes, please. I would soooooo dig that :)

Its quite funny to see the Reader people have trouble measureing their battery life. Thats a problem i would like to have. :D

How about we collect what we already know:


both devices use the same display technology (E Ink)
the iLiad screen is bigger (8.1") than the Sony Reader screen (6") -> Q: is battery negatively influenced by a bigger E Ink screen?
the iLiad offers 16 gray levels, the Sony only 4 -> Q: is the battery negatively influenced by the number of gray levels?
both devices run on Linux -> Q: kernel versions?, loaded modules?
the iLiad has WiFi 802.11b -> Q: in power-savings mode, can it be completely turned off?
the iLiad uses a WaCom Penabled touchscreen ->Q: in power-savings mode, can it be completely turned off? By how much does it affect battery life?
the iLiad uses a Li-ion 1100mAh battery -> Q: what is the capacity of the battery used by the Sony?
the CPU of the iLiad is an Intel XScale 400MHz PXA 255 -> Q: in power-savings mode, CPU could be throttled down to 200MHz, is this already working with the latest software? What CPU does the Sony use?

Reader uses kernel 2.4.17 (n12) and CPU Dragonball MXL from Motorola.

Since the Sony Reader is also a Linux device, battery-life in these regions should be possible for the Iliad as well.

They may be both Linux devices but there the simularities end... The Illiad has much more bolted onto it (wifi, stylus, touch sensitive) and has a much larger screen... Comparing the Illiad and the Sony Reader is like comparing Apples and Oranges...

Let's hope iRex devote some resources to working on this soon...

As far I recall they always have done and are due to be improving this with the next release...

And I guess the Sony uses a Sony battery. This may reduce its overall lifetime ;-)

And I guess the Sony uses a Sony battery. This may reduce its overall lifetime ;-)
Whose... yours or that of the Sony Reader? :tongue2:

@jaed

The similarities don't end there. All the additional features of the Iliad can be turned off when you don't use them, so the only factor is the CPU and the larger screen. the CPU should not be a major problem since it will also be in idle mode most of the time if you use the Iliad like a Sony Reader (e.g. just for reading).
The larger screen is an unknown factor, just like the additional gray-levels. Apart from that, you can compare the devices very well.

the CPU should not be a major problem since it will also be in idle mode most of the time if you use the Iliad like a Sony Reader (e.g. just for reading).
You can find the technical papers for the CPU here:
http://www.intel.com/design/pca/products/pxa255/techdocs.htm

But isn't it too hypothetically? Do we know the capacity of the iLiads and the Sony battery to have a comparison? Maybe one of the both devices is better in energy saving and loses this benefit because of low dimensioned batteries.

@jaed

The similarities don't end there. All the additional features of the Iliad can be turned off when you don't use them, so the only factor is the CPU and the larger screen. the CPU should not be a major problem since it will also be in idle mode most of the time if you use the Iliad like a Sony Reader (e.g. just for reading).
The larger screen is an unknown factor, just like the additional gray-levels. Apart from that, you can compare the devices very well.

So... If you turn off the additional hardware, and make assumptions for a larger screen and a different sized battery, and a slightly different cpu, its a similar device...? :D

Well in all fairness, the two devices are similar in the way that they claim to be e-readers. And from e-readers - especially with E Ink technology - one should expect a decent battery life.

Well in all fairness, the two devices are similar in the way that they claim to be e-readers. And from e-readers - especially with E Ink technology - one should expect a decent battery life.

Definitely...! At least its better than my first mp3 player... It used to consume an AA battery in four hours...! :p

Its quite funny to see the Reader people have trouble measureing their battery life. Thats a problem i would like to have. :DIt is quite a nice dilemma. :grin:


Reader uses kernel 2.4.17 (n12) and CPU Dragonball MXL from Motorola.
Where did you dig that up from, igorsk? I've been trying to figure that out for a while now. :beam: (I've reposted your info in the Sony forum (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=41214#post41214) )


Do we know the capacity of the iLiads and the Sony battery to have a comparison?I think the iLiad's is known, though I can't recall it off the top of my head .... 7500 mAh maybe?

I've been trying to dig up the Sony's battery capacity for some time now, and met with a complete lack of success so far. I haven't worked up the nerve to just open the case and look yet. :grin:

It doesn't help that there are no exposed screws or other fasteners that I can find, other than a couple that appear to hold the memory card slot in place and ONE on the back, which doesn't look like it could hold the case together. :(

Where did you dig that up from, igorsk? I've been trying to figure that out for a while now. :beam: (I've reposted your info in the Sony forum (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=41214#post41214) )
From version.h of course :)

Ah. So I guess we can look forward to some additions to the Developers Forum (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=115) in the near future. :grin:

It is quite a nice dilemma. :grin:

Damn, i hope someone can help you out of that :)


I think the iLiad's is known, though I can't recall it off the top of my head .... 7500 mAh maybe?


OMG, my eyes still hurt. Man, i wish. Actually the iLIads battery is 1100 mAh. Thats almost 7500. They should have put in 7500 mAh, then we wouldnt have to worry about power management so much.

Ah, yes. That would be why 7500 didn't sound quite right to me .... :wink:

From version.h of course :)
The beauty of open source :D