Richard Herley's post about offering his books for free and getting many downloads but not many payments had me wondering about people who download a free book and don't pay for it. Why not? Select more than one reason if you want to, but if you can leave a comment about which reason was the primary one, that would be so interesting.

1) I downloaded it but haven't read it yet
2) I did not read it because the book is 'not my thing'
3) I read at minimum a sample, but the book was not to my liking
4) I meant to send a donation but I forgot
5) I meant to send a donation but do not use Paypal (or whatever given option)
6) Why send money when the author is giving it away for free
7) Other

I kept forgetting to give Jeff Carver (Starrigger) a donation for months after downloading the Chaos Chronicles. After downloading Sunborn, which I still haven't read yet, I remembered that I had been meaning to leave a tip in the jar. Once I did, I felt much better. I'm planning on leaving another tip after I read Sunborn as well.

The problem with donationware for me, is that I'm at the website when I download the book, but I'm using my Reader when I finish the book, so I have to remember to "pay" for the book if I liked it sometime later. Some times I do, most times I don't (despite the best of intentions)

Well, the one time i wantted to do this, i was disapointed by paypal not allowing to leave a message.

I generally do remember to send one later if I intend to, but there are books (such as Herley's) which I did not download in the first place because they are just not my thing and I am learning to devote my reading energy to quality books I will really enjoy and not to just 'filler' I got because it was there.

There are a few freebies I have downloaded and just not gotten to yet, but when I do read them, I will probably leave a tip if I enjoy them.

Just to be clear, polls like this aren't going to give you any actual or usable information.

• Sample size is way too small
• Sample is not representative (as you aren't polling the downloaders, or the population at large)
• Sample population is self-selecting (i.e. only people who are on MR and are interested in the topic will even bother to read the post, let alone vote)

Granted, it's cheaper than hiring Gallup. ;) But I don't think you'll find any real answers this way.

Because I didn't enjoy it in one case.

In others, because they were just bad.

I didn't tip Jeffrey Carver for his free books, but I bought the rest of his works, where does that put me?

As a courtesy I always leave a small donation when I download the book. If I like the book then I go back afterwords and donate more (if possible).

I downloaded 3 of Richard Herley's books, and simply forgot to pay, as I haven't read them yet... This has today been rectified - not the reading, but the donation...

Just to be clear, polls like this aren't going to give you any actual or usable information.

• Sample size is way too small
• Sample is not representative (as you aren't polling the downloaders, or the population at large)
• Sample population is self-selecting (i.e. only people who are on MR and are interested in the topic will even bother to read the post, let alone vote)

Granted, it's cheaper than hiring Gallup. ;) But I don't think you'll find any real answers this way.
ALL forum polls are likely (almost certain?) to have small, non-representative, self-selecting samples. So, you seem to be saying "don't expect reliable data from any of the polls", which is true enough in that none of them are properly managed double-blind trials.

Even so, I find many of the polls interesting.

What constitutes a real answer, in any case? Is there any way in which I can find any real answers? I once read a survey that said there wasn't.

Why should you pay money for a book you download from a totally new author and a book that bypass the publisher filtering? If i like the book I would pay for the next book. But the probability that it is a good book is really low if you do not have trusted reviews to read before you download.

What few I've seen ask for PayPal, and due to a quagmire of a problem a few years ago that took 3 months to settle I no longer use PayPal.

Richard Herley's post about offering his books for free and getting many downloads but not many payments had me wondering about people who download a free book and don't pay for it. Why not? Select more than one reason if you want to, but if you can leave a comment about which reason was the primary one, that would be so interesting.

1) I downloaded it but haven't read it yet
2) I did not read it because the book is 'not my thing'
3) I read at minimum a sample, but the book was not to my liking
4) I meant to send a donation but I forgot
5) I meant to send a donation but do not use Paypal (or whatever given option)
6) Why send money when the author is giving it away for free
7) Other

You forgot the option for: "I didn't bother to download it because his story blurbs didn't make the novels appeal to me."

Besides, I've never heard of him... at least, not until he posted that his experiment was over. So I'd have to say his advertising/marketing campaign failed to reach me.

Derek

You forgot the option for: "I didn't bother to download it because his story blurbs didn't make the novels appeal to me."

Besides, I've never heard of him... at least, not until he posted that his experiment was over. So I'd have to say his advertising/marketing campaign failed to reach me.

Derek
had me wondering about people who download a free book and don't pay for it. Why not?
Maybe he didn't forget.

Clearly the poll was relating to people have downloaded a donationware book and not paid for it.

Ergo, not knowing about the book or not wanting the book and therefore not downloading it is irrelevant to the poll.

Cheers,
PKFFW

I've forgotten a couple of times.

They really need some kind of reminder at the end of the book and/or between chapters. Ideally a micropayment system could be embedded INTO the book, so in a Kindle I could click a link and they are gifted $x.xx from my Amazon account. That would make it easy and simple!

I usually pay for the book before I download it, unless it's a first in a series. Then I pay for the other books if I liked the first book and donate a small fee for the downloaded book.

If the book is not to my liking or formated badly I don't pay.

The outcome of that experiment was kinda shocking for me and I know have a note beside my PC (yes on Paper) "PAY BEFORE YOU READ". Just so I don't forget it.

The outcome of that experiment was kinda shocking for me and I know have a note beside my PC (yes on Paper) "PAY BEFORE YOU READ". Just so I don't forget it.

I do not understand why. The webpage said:

You are under no obligation to buy one you don't like. But do please visit the fees page if you derive value from your reading and agree that it's worth the money.

I think it was dishonest in this case to pay before you read the book. It is even problematic to pay for an unread book event if you likes a previous book since.

I'm quite happy to make a donation once I've read the book (or even when I start reading it, but my TBR list is looong). I do have a terrible memory at times, though, and admit to sometimes forgetting to come back and make the donation.

I'm all for authors putting a little reminder at the beginning (or even better, the end) of their book for just such reasons.

Speaking of which, does MR have a donate with PayPal option somewhere?

I wouldn't mind leaving a tip for some of the interesting books that can be downloaded here.

I do not understand why. The webpage said:

I think it was dishonest in this case to pay before you read the book. It is even problematic to pay for an unread book event if you likes a previous book since.

I treat eBooks the way I treat pBooks - unless it is in the public domain out of copyright I should pay for the book. I never read samples of books even in the pBook times - just the short blurb on the back.

And whether I like the book or not does not necessarily reflect if it is a good one or not. Either way, the author did work on it. And if they don't get some sort of income, they stop writing soon.

That's just me, but I'll never be rich anyway cos I'm so honest & stupid that even my Dad cringes.

I'm not sure if it really counts as "donationware"...but I downloaded Warbreaker from Brandon Sanderon's site and loved it. I didn't pay him money for it, but I think the book accomplished its purpose in that:

I purchased and voraciously devoured every other book he has written to date, except Elantris, because I can't find it in ebook format.

So that's why I voted other.

I treat eBooks the way I treat pBooks - unless it is in the public domain out of copyright I should pay for the book. I never read samples of books even in the pBook times - just the short blurb on the back.

Well, I think you should respect the author's and publisher's (the same person in this case) wishes. The publishing of the books this way was a marketing thing plus something that could show how much people liked the book so you could predict future sales. If people pay without reading the book you do not get this information.

I'm all for authors putting a little reminder at the beginning (or even better, the end) of their book for just such reasons.

That's a sound idea - at the end is good; if I get that far I'd be happy to make a payment, and a note there would be a good reminder.

Speaking of which, does MR have a donate with PayPal option somewhere?




Nope ....



(yet!)

Thanks Geoff. I've received a lot of benefit from MR, and I'd be happy to repay in some way.

I imagine that if everyone who downloaded a book paid as little as a dollar each time (assuming that he liked the book), the site would have no financial worries. But I'm just guessing. Maybe it doesn't have any financial worries now!

Well, I think you should respect the author's and publisher's (the same person in this case) wishes. The publishing of the books this way was a marketing thing plus something that could show how much people liked the book so you could predict future sales. If people pay without reading the book you do not get this information.

So the author rather has people who download & read and don't pay than those that download, not read but pay? Ahhhhhhh - thanks for clearing that up for me.

So, When you go to the store and get Bread, Milk, Steak, and a new car, you forget to pay, but it's ok, you didn't like them, and theirs no need to feel guilty, after all, it didn't really matter right !

So, When you go to the store and get Bread, Milk, Steak, and a new car, you forget to pay, but it's ok, you didn't like them, and theirs no need to feel guilty, after all, it didn't really matter right !
Those things aren't traditionally sold as "donationware", and they are not copies - I don't see the comparison.

Does it matter what they are sold as ? the point surely is the honesty of the "Buyer", and a "Lot" but "Not All" never intend to pay, they just take anyway, which is kind of my point !

Oh and the Poll really needs an option to say you haven't downloaded it !

Does it matter what they are sold as ? the point surely is the honesty of the "Buyer", and a "Lot" but "Not All" never intend to pay, they just take anyway, which is kind of my point !
Yes it matters - the situations are not comparable. With the ebooks, they are offered on a "pay if you like them" basis. If these poll results are anything to go by, the vast majority of downloads don't represent someone reading the book - they can't resist a freebie, download it, and haven't got around to reading it yet. Given the amount of free material available, this is not surprising.

It's not that I don't sypathise with the author - I want to find a model that works for everyone, which will no doubt evolve in time. But it isn't right to paint the people who download something offered on this basis as thieves - they are not.

Thanks Geoff. I've received a lot of benefit from MR, and I'd be happy to repay in some way.

I imagine that if everyone who downloaded a book paid as little as a dollar each time (assuming that he liked the book), the site would have no financial worries. But I'm just guessing. Maybe it doesn't have any financial worries now!

I am certain you are not alone. There are possibly a number here who would willingly contribute, even if they don't download - but that is a issue for Alex to consider.

It's not that I don't sypathise with the author - I want to find a model that works for everyone, which will no doubt evolve in time. But it isn't right to paint the people who download something offered on this basis as thieves - they are not.

I agree.

But even if there were a large number of freeloaders; that of itself doesn't mean the donation model can't work.
E.g if only 10% of downloaders pay for it, the returns could still be greater for the author than the returns from 100% of pbook buyers.

Ben, I understand your point, but as original stated, people just are not paying, through forgetfulness, dishonesty, or sheer bloody mindedness, doesn't matter, the Author put trust in people, and here o this site, people are too ready to accept that behaviour ....maybe I got it wrong, maybe it is acceptable ? ....... I personally don't think so, thats all !

yes not all are thieves, most are not ! but the attitude here appears to support thieves rather than the Author, and there are still a lot who do abuse the site, which is such a shame as the site and lots of the people are fantastic !

I agree.

But even if there were a large number of freeloaders; that of itself doesn't mean the donation model can't work.
E.g if only 10% of downloaders pay for it, the returns could still be greater for the author than the returns from 100% of pbook buyers.

That would mean that at least 10% had read the book and that is very unlikely. I really think you have to talk in terms of readers instead. Most people that buy a paper book will read it eventually. Since the cost to store the book is usually high you do not want to buy to many books that you will never read.

Ben, I understand your point, but as original stated, people just are not paying, through forgetfulness, dishonesty, or sheer bloody mindedness, doesn't matter, the Author put trust in people, and here o this site, people are too ready to accept that behaviour ....maybe I got it wrong, maybe it is acceptable ? ....... I personally don't think so, thats all !
There were 144 payments for 100,000 downloads. Perhaps I am naive, but I have more faith in humanity, particularly in the book-reading part of it, than to accuse 99.8x% of them of being thieves. You say that people are too ready to accept "that behaviour" - but what behaviour, exactly? The problem with this situation is that we don't have the facts about what people did. It's possible (though unlikely) that everyone who read and enjoyed the book paid for it. It's possible (though unlikely) that 100,000 people read the book, but only 144 people paid for it.

We don't have many reliable figures on ebook sales, but JA Konrath has shared some of his here (http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2009/10/kindle-numbers-traditional-publishing.html). He's selling a few 100 copies of many of his titles. His free title has had over 100,000 (ref. (http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2009/08/great-ebook-experiment.html)). This suggests to me that the volumes that Richard saw might be typical. Now, you can interpret this as "everyone is a thief and the world is going to the dogs", or as "it's human nature to grab a freebie, even if only 1 in 1000 people who do so are actually going to use it". I prefer the latter, and in a digital world where the freebie costs nothing, I don't see the harm in people hoarding a copy.

yes not all are thieves, most are not ! but the attitude here appears to support thieves rather than the Author, and there are still a lot who do abuse the site, which is such a shame as the site and lots of the people are fantastic !
Nobody who fails to pay for "donationware" is a thief - they haven't even broken civil law, as far as I can see. Not even people who illegally copy content are thieves - they are illegally infringing copyright, which is not the same. I have been a victim of both theft and copyright infringement and, trust me, theft is a lot worse.

This kind of emotive language does nothing for the debate, other than to turn it into a slanging match.

I can't speak for anyone else's attitude, but my attitude is not to "support thieves rather than the Author", but rather to attempt to have a rational discussion.

Looking at the figures from JA Konrath, it may be that the ebook market is, as yet, too small to support an author unless they are (a) very prolific and (b) skilled at marketing their ebooks.

That would mean that at least 10% had read the book and that is very unlikely.

Yes, but it could be 0.1% and still theoretically give the author a bigger return than other models.
I think the only thing that matters is the number of people that pay; the number who don't is irrelevant.
As the ebook market grows, we'll probably see both numbers increase.

Oh and the Poll really needs an option to say you haven't downloaded it !

No it doesn't, because it's about people 'who downloaded the book' and then didn't pay for it. If you never downloaded one, you don't really apply to the sample this poll is aiming for.

There were 144 payments for 100,000 downloads. Perhaps I am naive, but I have more faith in humanity, particularly in the book-reading part of it, than to accuse 99.8x% of them of being thieves. You say that people are too ready to accept "that behaviour" - but what behaviour, exactly? The problem with this situation is that we don't have the facts about what people did. It's possible (though unlikely) that everyone who read and enjoyed the book paid for it. It's possible (though unlikely) that 100,000 people read the book, but only 144 people paid for it.

We don't have many reliable figures on ebook sales, but JA Konrath has shared some of his here (http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2009/10/kindle-numbers-traditional-publishing.html). He's selling a few 100 copies of many of his titles. His free title has had over 100,000 (ref. (http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2009/08/great-ebook-experiment.html)). This suggests to me that the volumes that Richard saw might be typical. Now, you can interpret this as "everyone is a thief and the world is going to the dogs", or as "it's human nature to grab a freebie, even if only 1 in 1000 people who do so are actually going to use it". I prefer the latter, and in a digital world where the freebie costs nothing, I don't see the harm in people hoarding a copy.


Nobody who fails to pay for "donationware" is a thief - they haven't even broken civil law, as far as I can see. Not even people who illegally copy content are thieves - they are illegally infringing copyright, which is not the same. I have been a victim of both theft and copyright infringement and, trust me, theft is a lot worse.

This kind of emotive language does nothing for the debate, other than to turn it into a slanging match.

I can't speak for anyone else's attitude, but my attitude is not to "support thieves rather than the Author", but rather to attempt to have a rational discussion.

Looking at the figures from JA Konrath, it may be that the ebook market is, as yet, too small to support an author unless they are (a) very prolific and (b) skilled at marketing their ebooks.

I am sorry Ben,

a) That you have been a victim of theft, and of Copyright Infringement, I think them equal in all honesty

b) That i have to again disagree with you, It is morally wrong, I Don't think we are given the right to help ourselves, just to take and make fair payment, and to me it sounded in the original post, that the author was upset and felt cheated by people downloading the book in large numbers, but so very very few making ANY payment at all,

anyway I have had my fair share of this thread, I still think attitudes need to change, A lot of members here moan about being riped of by publishers, but then dont think it wrong to not make even token payments for eBooks, I can't see how BOTH attitudes can be held by one person,

Sorry Again Ben,

I am sorry Ben,
Three sorry's in one post - stop it, you're entitled to your opinion!
(You're just wrong - sorry!)
a) That you have been a victim of theft, and of Copyright Infringement, I think them equal in all honesty
Equal? They don't feel equal. In my case, illegal copying applied to software that I'd written. I treat it as a fact of life that some people will break the copy protection and not pay for it. It doesn't feel like a big deal to me, and I'm not sure whether it cost me any significant volume of sales. On the other hand, having someone break into my house and steal things felt very bad.
b) That i have to again disagree with you, It is morally wrong, I Don't think we are given the right to help ourselves, just to take and make fair payment, and to me it sounded in the original post, that the author was upset and felt cheated by people downloading the book in large numbers, but so very very few making ANY payment at all,
Remember, what we're talking about here is content that was offered for free download, for people to pay for if they liked it. How is it morally bad to download it but not get around to reading it? The author gave the right to help ourselves - there was no illegal copying in this example. What would be bad is if lots of people read and enjoyed it and didn't pay - but we don't know that this happened.
A lot of members here moan about being riped of by publishers, but then dont think it wrong to not make even token payments for eBooks, I can't see how BOTH attitudes can be held by one person
I think that you're missing the nuances here. There are people who think that it's always bad, and people who think that it's always OK, but for most people, it depends on the circumstances as to whether one should have to pay for content. When it's convenient to pay for quality at a fair price, most people will pay.

I don't think that the impression that "a lot of members" here don't "make even token payments for eBooks" is right. I think that most members here are delighted to find authors, like Richard, who make their books available at a fair price. You'll find lots of people bending over backwards - even using false addresses etc. - in order to pay for ebooks. There is wide frustration that publishers seem to be going out of their way to make it difficult to buy ebooks straightforwardly.

I have downloaded many free books. Most I haven't even seen a "donation" link.

IMHO- when a author puts out an ebook for free download then they should anticipate a lot of people downloading it. If they put up a link for donation, sure they may get some, but it shouldn't be expected and it shouldn't definitely be demanded- it is a suggestion. If you want money for each download, make it a pay ebook and not free

Now, there are a feww books that I have read that I plan on making donations to the author because I enjoyed their stories. I just hope they aren't sitting around calling me a thief because I downloaded their book for free, as it was offered, and haven't gotten around to making a donation, YET

It would help greatly if at the end of the book would be a page with information on how to make a donation because sometimes I forget where I even downloaded the book from

when i go to a physical bookstore, i tend to respectfully (no bending or damaging the books) read a little to see if i'll like a book before i buy it. since in my life i have bought literally thousands of books (okay, a bunch were replacements, but still...), i don't see that the publishers are missing out. before i buy on fictionwise, i tend to read the sample. same anywhere there are samples. if i don't like it, i don't buy it.

i have downloaded a lot of ebooks that i didn't like, but i also didn't read more than a couple pages. should i feel obligated to pay or be branded a thief? i didn't read more than i would have a pbook that i didn't buy in a store, and the author usually says they'd appreciate a donation if i liked the book.

in some cases, i didn't donate but bought the sequels. in a couple cases, the author asked for reviews, which i gladly wrote.

and to be honest, i download a lot more than i read. why? because what i heard about a title sounded interesting, and i planned to read it later. i read on a cybook gen3, so a link at the end of the books wouldn't be useful, but a reminder that donations are accepted if i liked the book with a url would be handy, actually.

when i go to a physical bookstore, i tend to respectfully (no bending or damaging the books) read a little to see if i'll like a book before i buy it. since in my life i have bought literally thousands of books (okay, a bunch were replacements, but still...), i don't see that the publishers are missing out.

Oh, I am bad about this. A few weeks ago I went to B&N to pick up some technical books and picked up 15 on one topic, skimmed through all of them, and bought 4. The rest were garbage, but those four had what I needed, and were worth paying $30-$50 a pop for. I would have bought them in ebook format, but I don't have a large format eReader yet, and most of them weren't available.

I do feel rather like like a pinchpenny though when I go to B&N to research a topic, skim through 15, and then buy them in the Kindle app on my way out...

So far, I have not read one free book. Be it a donationware or classics from mobileread library. I even deleted all mobileread library books except two. I have a very long TBR list, over 150 books. So any freebies will have to wait. Wait not because they are freebies but because other books were in the line before them.

Um, what is "donationware"? A free book that you agree to pay for and then don't? Please explain

Um, what is "donationware"? A free book that you agree to pay for and then don't? Please explain
It's where you make something available for download without charge, but ask for donations from people who get something out of it.

Calibre is made available on this basis.

Some "donationware" has a recommended level of donation that you "should" pay, some leave it open. Some say "donate if you like" while others say "you must donate if you like it".

Calibre is made available on this basis.

I would not call Calibre donationware. Calibre seems to me to be opensource software were the option to donate was made available because users asked for it. I think you need the intention to make money and actively tell what you expect on term of donations for it to be donationware.

I would not call Calibre donationware. Calibre seems to me to be opensource software were the option to donate was made available because users asked for it. I think you need the intention to make money and actively tell what you expect on term of donations for it to be donationware.
You are probably right. The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donationware) (although a bit light) suggests that donationware requires the request for a donation.

I wasn't aware that one couldn't donate for calibre at the beginning - I'm a n00b ;)

I don't even think I have come across any of those. What sites are they on/popular with? I get Sony freebies and that kind of stuff...

I don't even think I have come across any of those. What sites are they on/popular with? I get Sony freebies and that kind of stuff...
This thread was in response to one started by Richard Herley, whose web site is here (http://www.richardherley.com/index.html). Richard had made a number of his books available for free download, asking for donations from readers who liked his work. Unfortunately, despite 100,000+ downloads, he only got 144 (IIRC) payments. You can now find his books on smashwords (http://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/richardherley).

Hmm....Refuge looks like it could be my kind of thing. I don't mind paying $5, that's cheap! To be honest I don't think they should have donationware books, only because for a lot of people, their list of to-be-read books are so long that by the time they get to it they either forget to donate or they go back to the website and it's maybe changed.

Say what we want about Sony but I like how they do their freebies. For this one month the book is free. After that we will charge you X amount of dollars. A lot of time the free book they offer is the first to a series; there have been plenty of authors I've found and don't normally read but with that first free book I have purchased the entire series (one consisting of 7 books). But I didn't read those books for a couple of months.

I don't know, it just seems the donationware system is incredibly flawed from what I've understood of it. I think we tend to appreciate things more when they are in limited supply or when they are only offered for a limited time.

Looks like I found a new author anyway, lol! ;)

Hmm....Refuge looks like it could be my kind of thing. I don't mind paying $5, that's cheap! )

It is a great read as are The Penal Colony and the Tide Mill also by Richard Herley (http://www.richardherley.com/index.html)