For those of us who haven't leapt gleefully aboard the iLiad Love Train (yet, anyway :rolleyes: ), what are you thinking in terms of what you plan to do about an e-reader?

Me, I'm still waiting to see the other two come out. I'm hoping to get a "hands on" look at each of them (even if it's just a few minutes in some store), so I can decide if there's anything that they lack that I just have to shell out for the iLiad to get.

I'm kind of leaning toward the Sony at the moment (s'why I went ahead and put this on the Sony thread, it doesnt' really fit well anywhere), now that we're getting some more information on it supporting some non-proprietary formats. Experience with Sony's hardware in the past gives me a higher comfort level than with the HanLin -- I just flat don't have any visability of their track record, unfortunately. I was leaning toward the HanLin, but I think that was mostly out of fear of Sony's dark (DRM) past. With it looking like they've learned that lesson....

DiabloNL seems pretty decided :D , but what are the rest of y'all thinking? What matters to you between them? What concerns do you have about any of them? And such like that there. :happy2:

DiabloNL seems pretty decided :D

:wink3:

I won't choose for the Hanlin because it doesn't give me a feeling of quality. Please note that I said 'feeling'. I have always liked Sony stuff and have a great convidence in their products. The Reader has a lot of benefits for me like the size, weight, cover, price, and design. To be honest I think the iLiad is a little overpriced.

Do realize that the Sony is not going to be released in Europe for the time being. You'll have to import it.

Do realize that the Sony is not going to be released in Europe for the time being. You'll have to import it.


I know but that's no problem because I import loads of stuff. I was one of the first that had a Sony PSP imported from Japan. :p

I'm on the fence. Originally, I was definitely going to get the Jinke V2 - it's more open, cheaper, and it was going to come out sooner than anything else. But now it turns out there's no guarantee when it will arrive.

Plus, I work for Sony, so I get a discount on Sony stuff. I don't know how much it will be for the reader, but it will probably make it the most affordable option. And I'm impatient! I want a reader *yesterday*.

But then I think "closed platform, fascist Sony format and anti-hacking attitude, and no HTML support!" and I get unhappy.

I guess I'll wait until at least the Sony reader comes out, and see what everything is like then. Maybe iRex will announce a cheaper Iliad, or Jinke will get their act together.

But then I think "closed platform, fascist Sony format and anti-hacking attitude, and no HTML support!" and I get unhappy.Pretty solid indications are that the Sony Reader will read anything that the iLiad does without conversion, except HTML that is. So you can probably avoid the "fascist Sony format" entirely if you wish.

I can see that the HTML thing could be a pain, but you ought to be able to convert it to something else, so maybe it would be managable. Unless you need to handle large quantities of HTML stuff, of course.

I think that the hacking attitude may vary from group to group and particularly depending on country, so US vs. Japan may make a difference there. Depends on how much is the corporation's edict, I suppose.

All of that together suggests to me that the Sony Reader is a good deal more open than we all first expected. I'm beginning to think (hope) that they actually learned something from the root-kit and Librie' debacles. (though it seems they could still use some lessons in use of the letter "o" :happy2: )

What do you do for Sony, BTW? It sounds like they're keeping you as much in the dark as they are the world at large. Discounts are great, but I'd be pushing for information! :D

For me, I mostly just want to read books. I don't need to take notes, I don't particularly care about the file format (except for not wanting to be trapped, or have to spend huge quantities of time converting), and I don't need anything fancy. Frankly, I think the mp3 function is beyond my interest, unless they decided to support something like Audible.com, for instance. I just want to read, and reduce my library's taking over of my entire home. At any rate, it's not hurting anything.

From that perspective, any of the three readers will work, but Sony's price and hardware quality are edging them in front for me.

Pretty solid indications are that the Sony Reader will read anything that the iLiad does without conversion, except HTML that is. So you can probably avoid the "fascist Sony format" entirely if you wish.


That was tongue-in-cheek, of course. I really do dislike electronics based on a proprietary format, though.

I think that the hacking attitude may vary from group to group and particularly depending on country, so US vs. Japan may make a difference there. Depends on how much is the corporation's edict, I suppose.

I think it's just an outgrowth of selling content instead of devices. If you make your money from licensing a platform to music, movie, game, or book publishers (or by being one, in the case of Sony), any unauthorized use of the platform possibly cuts into your revenue - even more so on subsidized hardware, like the game systems.

All of that together suggests to me that the Sony Reader is a good deal more open than we all first expected. I'm beginning to think (hope) that they actually learned something from the root-kit and Librie' debacles. (though it seems they could still use some lessons in use of the letter "o" :happy2: )

It certainly seems like they learned *something* from the Librie, but it's still not as open as the Jinke model will be.

What do you do for Sony, BTW? It sounds like they're keeping you as much in the dark as they are the world at large. Discounts are great, but I'd be pushing for information! :D

Sony is a huge company, with many different divisions. I'm in the Playstation group (Sony Computer Entertainment), and the reader is (I assume) being made by Sony Electronics (which is a separate company). I don't even know who I would talk to in order to figure out who works on that. :-P All the groups are pretty insular.

For me, I mostly just want to read books. I don't need to take notes, I don't particularly care about the file format (except for not wanting to be trapped, or have to spend huge quantities of time converting), and I don't need anything fancy. Frankly, I think the mp3 function is beyond my interest, unless they decided to support something like Audible.com, for instance. I just want to read, and reduce my library's taking over of my entire home. At any rate, it's not hurting anything.

Well, I'm in the same boat. I only want to read things, and I don't really care too much about format. However, HTML seems like the best tradeoff between size and precise format control - and Gutenburg ebooks are HTML, ConvertLit outputs HTML, etc, etc. So that would be the one format I'd prefer they support.

Other than that, I just feel more comfortable with a "generic" reader. It sort of makes the hardware just an appliance, a commodity rather than a "platform". Platforms are generally locked down, walled gardens where you play by the grace of the creator (you can read whatever you like, as long as you buy it through Connect). The difference between the early PC and Macs, I guess, or between the PC and gaming consoles. The platforms have their benefits, but I'd rather have a generic appliance.

The reader def. I live just outside of DC and there are two Sony Connect stores nearby. I've always liked Sony products, the Illiad is too expensive and I've never trusted communist products so it's really the only choice I can live with.

The html issue isn't really a bother for me. I'm in politics for the most part and half of what I read is policy papers in PDF format anyway and it looks like the Reader is perfect for that. I have a large current collection and much of it is in html but seriously people, converting that is a snap. Looks like all I'll have to do is spend a few minutes each week (or every few weeks) converting the html, hardly a hassle.

The only problem I have now is comics, I have a lot of them on my computer. I'm not sure those are going to render well at all. On the other hand, there isn't any device that has color anyway (yet) and most are short enough that I can read them on my computer or laptop anyway.

The reader def. I live just outside of DC and there are two Sony Connect stores nearby. I've always liked Sony products, the Illiad is too expensive and I've never trusted communist products so it's really the only choice I can live with.

I don't know if this is serious or not, but you do realize that any electronics device you purchase will have components made in China, right? Often the entire thing will be made there... I imagine the Iliad and the Sony Reader both have at least components made in China.

I think it's just an outgrowth of selling content instead of devices. If you make your money from licensing a platform to music, movie, game, or book publishers (or by being one, in the case of Sony), any unauthorized use of the platform possibly cuts into your revenue - even more so on subsidized hardware, like the game systems.
Weeeell, as you said the groups are different, my read is that they're trying to create a pool of material to encourage their customers to buy the device, rather than trying to sell the device to sell content (I'm basing that on their allowing PDF/TXT/RTF files). Sure they want to sell the content too, but no one is going to buy the content unless they have the device, and the content is coming from a different section -- as you point out, the sections are pretty disparate.

It certainly seems like they learned *something* from the Librie, but it's still not as open as the Jinke model will be.
Maybe, maybe not -- it looks like aside from HTML, the Sony Reader does everything the HanLin does, plus BBeB files. They have said that they'll release an SDK -- what ends up being in it, we'll have to wait and see, of course. :happy2:
Sony is a huge company, with many different divisions. I'm in the Playstation group (Sony Computer Entertainment), and the reader is (I assume) being made by Sony Electronics (which is a separate company). I don't even know who I would talk to in order to figure out who works on that. :-P All the groups are pretty insular.
Ah, probably my dearest pieces of Sony hardware the SPS(1&2) -- I love the Armored Core Series ... but that's a totally other topic. :)

Well, I'm in the same boat. I only want to read things, and I don't really care too much about format. However, HTML seems like the best tradeoff between size and precise format control - and Gutenburg ebooks are HTML, ConvertLit outputs HTML, etc, etc. So that would be the one format I'd prefer they support.
Shucks, is that all? Couldn't you open them in word and save them as RTF and go to town? I thought you wanted to download the entirety of Sluggy Freelance (http://www.sluggy.com) onto your reader or something complicated like that. :D
Other than that, I just feel more comfortable with a "generic" reader. It sort of makes the hardware just an appliance, a commodity rather than a "platform". Platforms are generally locked down, walled gardens where you play by the grace of the creator (you can read whatever you like, as long as you buy it through Connect). The difference between the early PC and Macs, I guess, or between the PC and gaming consoles. The platforms have their benefits, but I'd rather have a generic appliance.

I don't think I'm following you -- I see the appliances as more like the PSP -- it only does one thing, play games, while the platforms, like PCs can do lots of things. The Sony Reader is mostly an appliance in that it mostly just reads texts, but it's also partly both because its Linux OS potentially allows it to do other stuff as well -- play mp3 and AAC podcast files, for starters, and maybe other reader software makers will release versions for the Sony Reader, as they seem to be contemplating doing with the iLiad. Then there are the applications that will spring up that we can't predict, but will love and wonder how we lived without ... which is where the hacking community comes in, actually ... and potentially increases demand, but now I'm repeating myself. :happy2:

The reader def. I live just outside of DC and there are two Sony Connect stores nearby. I've always liked Sony products, the Illiad is too expensive and I've never trusted communist products so it's really the only choice I can live with.

The html issue isn't really a bother for me. I'm in politics for the most part and half of what I read is policy papers in PDF format anyway and it looks like the Reader is perfect for that. I have a large current collection and much of it is in html but seriously people, converting that is a snap. Looks like all I'll have to do is spend a few minutes each week (or every few weeks) converting the html, hardly a hassle.

The only problem I have now is comics, I have a lot of them on my computer. I'm not sure those are going to render well at all. On the other hand, there isn't any device that has color anyway (yet) and most are short enough that I can read them on my computer or laptop anyway.
I'm afraid you may have some difficulty with your PDFs unless you can resize them to the Sony's screen, or get them that size in the first place. :(
Depending on what software you have to work with this may or may not be possible. Or if they're not secure PDF's you can allways export them to text.

I hear what you're saying about China -- I'd prefer not to support a communist regime myself -- however, Bingle is right, I'd be surprised if significant portions of each of these readers didn't originate in China, it seems like everything comes from there these days, at least parts, anyway.

On the other hand, China is a good deal less antagonistic these days, and the lot of their "citizens" has improved at least somewhat from all the manufacturing they do, so .... (shrug) what're you gonna do?

I'm not attacking your view, or even really disagreeing, but I've largely given up putting it into practice in any meaningful sense.

But that too, is another topic, for another forum. :happy2:

For me, the only real reason the iLiad wins is screen size, all the rest are just roadside perks, nice to have but not vital. I want a book reader, and I want it book size, no smaller or larger. I cut out a piece of paper in Reader screen size, and iLiad screen size... the Reader is too small! It means I would have to compromise on font size or text length every time, either straining my eyes or doing constant page flips (I read very fast). If both were 8 inchers, I might well have waited for the Sony. :)

I bought a Bookeen for the time being to replace my Ebookwise which won't handle PDFs at all and which I had need for.

I've looked pretty closely at the Iliad and the Hanlin but the Iliad is priced far too high for what it offers and the Hanlin... well I just don't get a good feeling for it's support and reliability and the price is not significantly different from that of the Sony. Sony's policies and software may be suspect, but the quality of their physical products is usually high.

So I'll probably go with the Sony. Since it's going to be offered directly in the US it won't take long for someone to hack it. I convert ALL my ebooks into non-proprietary plain text format immediately. Even if that means using a brute force method like bringing it up in a reader and capturing each page of text into a plain text editor using screen macros that are chained together or a VB program or setting up macros to grab hundreds of partial screen captures of large font size and then OCRing them to produce text.

I, quite simply, won't tolerate some suit somewhere deciding how and on what device I can read a book. I WILL pay for the book, but I won't accept someone else's dictate as to HOW I can read or WHERE or on WHAT device I own. That's the absolute bottom line.

So the formats supported on a device are not as much an issue to me as they are to some people. PDF support is a good selling point, but on the other hand, I have my Bookeen which is color and has a Large screen so PDF support alone is not a make or break issue.

I've been quite happy with my old Ebookwise and it only supports one format. And despite what many people say, by lowering the screen contrast and brighness I routinely get 15-20 hrs of use out of a single charge on it. And since I convert everything to plain text anyway, flipping it into the .IMP format wasn't really that much of an issue.

My fiancee has appropriated the Ebookwise for herself now. Her first venture into Ebooks and she's in love with it.

All I can say is that I do my best to avoid them. Can't always do it but often enough I can.

As for the PDF's, no none I deal with are encrypted. And about the page size, I can't believe that Sony would have some sort of filter to automaticlly resize...as for quality, we'll just have to see.

... about the page size, I can't believe that Sony would have some sort of filter to automaticlly resize....

Nobody else has either. :happy2:

I think it's an artifact of the PDF Files themselves -- they're saved with Page size and layout internalized. The ability to preserve that is makes them so valuable, but it also makes them kind of rigid.

The ability to reflow the text (adjust to different screen sizes) can be added to a PDF, but it apparently has to be set up when the file is created.

I know the Palm PDF reader from Adobe more or less reflows the content for display on the much smaller screen, so it can be done. Perhaps Adobe will expand it to convert for these readers in the coming days. The only drawback I've found in the Palm PDF reader is that the files are HUGE, compared to the original. That seems counter-intuitive when you're aiming to put it on a PDA, but there it is. They're actually significantly larger than the original file (TXT 2.4kb, PDF, 29.6kb, Palm PDF 35kb).

For me, the only real reason the iLiad wins is screen size, all the rest are just roadside perks, nice to have but not vital. I want a book reader, and I want it book size, no smaller or larger. I cut out a piece of paper in Reader screen size, and iLiad screen size... the Reader is too small! It means I would have to compromise on font size or text length every time, either straining my eyes or doing constant page flips (I read very fast). If both were 8 inchers, I might well have waited for the Sony. :)

Yeah, I actually had the opposite reaction at first -- I thought the iLiad would be too big. Then I did what you did (measured it out on paper), but for the overall unit, and decided that it wasn't.

I read fairly fast too, but I do fine on Palm's eReader software (yes, very frequent flipping), and I figure anything bigger than that is going to be a win. Actually, reading fast is what pulls me to the e-reader concept -- carrying several pbooks on a trip is a pain, of course that applies equally to all three readers. :)

You've got me thinking, though, the frequency of page flips may have an effect I hadn't considered: smaller screen size means more flips in a time period, which means more battery consumption for the same amount of text ('cause it's on more pages). Probably not terribly significant given many thousand page flips per charge, but still something to think about.

I've actually read a couple of books (short ones!) on my Nokia 3650, but it's only good for as-I-wait-for-the-doctor sort of desperate reading, not for real leisure (imo, of course, to each his own). I read somewhere that the length/size of a typical book (A5ish) is actually the perfect size for reading comfort and comprehension, both across and down. I tend to agree, larger pages feel long-winded, and shorter ones keep giving me mental "jumps/starts"; I am the type of reader that gets totally lost in books (to an unbelievable extent, lol), but magazines or booklets/Nokia I never get into so deeply. That's something from my reading experience that I'm not willing to give up. :)

As you say, battery life doesn't seem too significant at the numbers these readers are handling, hehe, but it's a good point all the same.

I don't think I'm following you -- I see the appliances as more like the PSP -- it only does one thing, play games, while the platforms, like PCs can do lots of things. The Sony Reader is mostly an appliance in that it mostly just reads texts, but it's also partly both because its Linux OS potentially allows it to do other stuff as well -- play mp3 and AAC podcast files, for starters, and maybe other reader software makers will release versions for the Sony Reader, as they seem to be contemplating doing with the iLiad. Then there are the applications that will spring up that we can't predict, but will love and wonder how we lived without ... which is where the hacking community comes in, actually ... and potentially increases demand, but now I'm repeating myself. :happy2:


Well, when I say "platform", what I mean is that the company develops a piece of hardware not for the sake of the hardware itself, but rather to make money selling content for it. The old "razor/blade" model, where the razor is the platform and the blades are the content. If someone's making money selling razors, then they can make any blade fit in - in fact, the more blades that fit, the more useful their product is, and the more they'll sell. But the more common model these days is selling the razor very cheaply - for little profit or even a loss! Then you make money selling the user razor blades. Since users only buy one razor, but buy many blades, you make more money that way. But it also means that your razor had better only fit your blades, or else you might lose their business to a competitor.

Sony makes money on the PSP not by selling people PSPs (in fact, I think they lost money on them at first) but by selling them games. Or actually, by licensing the ability to write games for the platform to other people, who make games. But only Sony-approved PSP software can be run on the PSP... And Sony tries very hard to keep it that way. If you buy a PSP and no games, Sony loses money. On the other hand, when you buy a PC to play games on, you pay all the money up front, and then you can do whatever you want - buy the games, download free games, or even write your own.

The Librie was undoubtably the same as the PSP - the only content that was available was Sony-approved, and it probably subsidized the hardware to an extent. They weren't making an ebook reader, they were trying to sell you books. The early Sony digital music players were the same way; they didn't play MP3s, they only played ATRAC3 files that you could, conveniently, buy from Sony Connect.

The new Sony philosophy (speaking just as an industry observer, not as an employee... no one tells me anything about business decisions ;-)) is that content is king. That's why they bought the music and movie studios, and are working on expanding that. And all the other divisions work towards supporting the movie and music business.

Now, Sony doesn't have a book publishing business, and allowing txt, pdf, and rtf formats seems to indicate that they're open to other people's content being on there. But I'd feel more comfortable if the Connect store didn't exist. I'd rather my hardware provider and content provider be separate entities; that way I know they're not screwing me over for their own benefit.

And about the page size, I can't believe that Sony would have some sort of filter to automaticlly resize...as for quality, we'll just have to see.

The Sony PDF reader will probably do just what Iliad reader does: show single page, fit to page. You won't get any user-defined zooming/scaling, though.

As long as that page isn't too far off from physical screen size, it will be readable: the resolution of the ePaper will ensure that. But displaying an A4-page on a smaller-than-A5 screen is not going to work very well.

Well, when I say "platform", what I mean is that the company develops a piece of hardware not for the sake of the hardware itself, but rather to make money selling content for it.
Ah! Now I follow. You're saying a marketing platform! I was thinking in terms of a hardware platform, but I'm with you now.
Now, Sony doesn't have a book publishing business, and allowing txt, pdf, and rtf formats seems to indicate that they're open to other people's content being on there. But I'd feel more comfortable if the Connect store didn't exist. I'd rather my hardware provider and content provider be separate entities; that way I know they're not screwing me over for their own benefit.
I see where you're going and I see your concerns, even find them somewhat compelling.

On the other hand, I find it slightly encouraging that the Connect store is primarily Sony's answer to iTunes, so it's really geared toward selling music first, with the etexts being something of an afterthought as it were. Combined with how insular Sony's various divisions seem to be, both in general, and from your comments on your own observations, I think the relationship to the Readers (hardware) may be more like (really) close partners than the same company. At $350, they aren't giving the readers away, certainly -- that's the best price HanLin can ask for theirs too, and they (presumably) have the subsidization of the entire Chinese government at some level, anyway.

As a further point, the Reader plays both mp3 and AAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding) files (hellooo, Podcasts!), which leaves you open to buying content from not the Connect Store. Between that and supporting RTF/TXT/PDF files, I think it may be a tacit acknowlegement that they've realized they can't lock us into only their content. I realize that there are some who won't really trust the Sony device to play those files until they see it for themselves, but I've become satisfied that it is indeed so.

I know, I know, I have been extremely vocal in the (recent, even) past in my skepticism about Sony's attitude on this topic, but the things I've learned recently about the hardware itself, and what it supports out of the box are swaying me.

Even when I was most leaning toward the HanLin reader, I was wishing that the Sony Reader would be more open, and that there would be some evidence of it. Well, the evidence is coming out, and I'm leaning back the other way.

Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but I expect that seeing the hardare and playing with it -- even if I can just get a few minutes in a store (just me and my SD card and the Reader :wink3: ) -- will give me a good read on just how wishfull my thinking is. :happy2:

I wish Sony and HanLin would release, already! And I still want to see an iLiad for myself, even though it's dropped to 3rd place in my considerations. (No, I'm not stalking you, iLiad owners ... I'm stalking your iLiads! :D )

Maybe we need a generic meditation thread for us poor, frustrated, non-iLiad folks.... :wall: